Greyhunter versus WG loadouts

[Filius]

I had a game with Robin Cruddace this weekend with my Wolves (which I dragged to the UK all the way from Vancouver). Can't reveal too much, but I had a ton of fun and Robin was a great guy. 8th is the real deal and it's going to be a ton of fun.

 

Couple take aways without saying more than I should: 8th editions was very, very kind to Greyhunters. There's a big return to 5th edition form for the army in general. Dreadnoughts are much more relevant. Bjorn in a drop pod was a ton of fun, too.

 

Sorry for comming back to this thread, but I just don't get the "8th editions was very, very kind to Greyhunters." out of my head, and I still wonder about their changes and value in 8th …

 

Doest the "very, very kind"  refer to the "Chainswords for every Grey Hunter"? Or does it refer to the new Grey Hunter Pack Leader? Or did I miss any other "changes"?

[Jarl Caldersson]

 

I had a game with Robin Cruddace this weekend with my Wolves (which I dragged to the UK all the way from Vancouver). Can't reveal too much, but I had a ton of fun and Robin was a great guy. 8th is the real deal and it's going to be a ton of fun.

 

Couple take aways without saying more than I should: 8th editions was very, very kind to Greyhunters. There's a big return to 5th edition form for the army in general. Dreadnoughts are much more relevant. Bjorn in a drop pod was a ton of fun, too.

 

Sorry for comming back to this thread, but I just don't get the "8th editions was very, very kind to Greyhunters." out of my head, and I still wonder about their changes and value in 8th …

 

Doest the "very, very kind"  refer to the "Chainswords for every Grey Hunter"? Or does it refer to the new Grey Hunter Pack Leader? Or did I miss any other "changes"?

 

 

I feel like our Wolf Guard easilly eclipse our Grey Hunters at only a couple points more. So many more options to really fit your unit out exactly how you need.

[Filius]

 

 

I had a game with Robin Cruddace this weekend with my Wolves (which I dragged to the UK all the way from Vancouver). Can't reveal too much, but I had a ton of fun and Robin was a great guy. 8th is the real deal and it's going to be a ton of fun.

 

Couple take aways without saying more than I should: 8th editions was very, very kind to Greyhunters. There's a big return to 5th edition form for the army in general. Dreadnoughts are much more relevant. Bjorn in a drop pod was a ton of fun, too.

 

Sorry for comming back to this thread, but I just don't get the "8th editions was very, very kind to Greyhunters." out of my head, and I still wonder about their changes and value in 8th …

 

Doest the "very, very kind"  refer to the "Chainswords for every Grey Hunter"? Or does it refer to the new Grey Hunter Pack Leader? Or did I miss any other "changes"?

 

 

I feel like our Wolf Guard easilly eclipse our Grey Hunters at only a couple points more. So many more options to really fit your unit out exactly how you need.

 

 

That is sad to hear. I really hoped for a boost of the Troops …

[Hellrender]

Grey hunter aren't bad per se though.

 

A full 10 man squad can have 2 plasma guns, a plasma pistol, and a combi plas, hunkered down somewhere. And they would be cheaper right? (dont have my index nearby).

 

It's just that wolf guard offer more flexibility, but i feel they suffer a bit from what sternguard did in 7th. They are still 1 wound only. So you pay more for your meat shields in the unit (those that die first, and often either have equipment to increase survivability, or nothing at all).

[Dantay VI]

Yes bit an exponential loss of firepower when 1 WG die when a 6 man pack. Consider the 40 point difference as 4 extra wounds plus losing half the amount of firepower per wound lost.

 

Although 10 man WG do seem tempting

[Brother Hellion]

Actually GH base cost is 14 pts 

 

WG is 16pts per module without wargear.

[Gherrick]

Having 2-3 with SS might increase their durability enough to make a notable difference.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

On the storm bolter plasma pistol loadout, you have to choose wether to shoot pistols or all other shooting weapons, so they can't put out the same set of shots.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I recently closed the 8th edition rules leak thread. I was asked to move the latter posts in that thread which were essentially off topic discussions into a new thread. After copious amounts of ale, and promises of blood and combat by the requester...I've done as asked.....

 

 

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Thanks Lord Ragnarok

[Garreck]

I guess "very, very kind" depends on what you're comparing with?

 

In 7th, a pack of 5 grey hunters with chain swords and plasma gun plus 1 wolf guard pack leader with combi plas weighed in at 129 points.  In 8th, the same kit will cost 112 points.  So maybe not "very, very kind" but certainly "kind."

 

Compared to their tactical marine counterparts this edition, grey hunters are freakin' swiss army knives.  A ten man tac squad can field a heavy weapon, a special weapon, and a combi weapon on the sarge.  A ten man grey hunter unit can field two special weapons, a combi on the WGPL, a special melee item on the WGPL, a special melee weapon on the GHPL, a plasma pistol somewhere in the pack...and oh by the way if you want to go there, you can put the WGPL in terminator armor and tank.  Oh and everyone gets chainswords.  Oh and you can improve your odds of getting into melee by bringing along a wolf standard. All of this comes at cost of course.  "Very, very kind?"  Maybe.  If you've got the points and want to run maxed out grey hunter squads, they'll have a ton more flexibility than a maxed out codex compliant tactical squad.

 

Compared to Wolf Guard?  Sure, WG are almost immeasurably more flexible, but also at cost...both per basic model and of course for the upgrades.  More expensive, better potential offensive output and survivability (storm shields).  I guess in other news, world round, water wet.

 

Really I guess it depends what you want to do.  I *like* the idea that the grey hunters can really pack on the options...but I honestly don't see the point.  I intend to run 5 or 6 man squads in twin assault cannon razorbacks.  1 plas if 5 man, 1 plas 1 combi plas on WGPL if 6 man.  I'll drive 'em to cover and/or objectives and camp.  Enemy can't ignore 'em, but it's no great tragedy when they inevitably get shot off the objective.  I certainly won't use PAWG for that mission.  PAWG you use the flexibility of the unit to kit it to kill certain unit types and you go hunting.  I guess a pack of PAWG sitting on an objective with storm shields would be harder to shift than a unit of grey hunters...but I'm not sure that kind of points commitment makes sense for objective camping...?  I could be wrong. 

 

Let's talk it out.  If we're talking same mission; objective camping with razorback support.  5 GH plus 1 WGPL with 1 plas and 1 combiplas goes for 112.  6 WG with 2 combiplas, 4 boltguns, and 6 stormshields goes for 156 if I did my math right.  (So, same firepower, but taking advantage of the WG ability to carry storm shields and improve durability.)  40% greater cost...do the stormshields make them 40% better at camping objectives?  Not against high volume of no/weak AP weaponry.  Rolling 3s is still rolling 3s.  Sure I have the option to give the WG more firepower...but again, cost keeps going up. 

 

If I'm going to go storm shields and combi plas, I'm going to go all the way, put those guys on bikes for extra wound and toughness...and zip around having my way shooting stuff.

 

That's kind of talking all the way around the OP's question.  I personally feel "very, very kind" is over-stating 8th edition's treatment of grey hunters.  I do feel they're generally superior to their tactical counterparts, they're cheaper then equivalently equipped 7th edition grey hunters, and in regards to comparisons with  WG, I think you use WG to accomplish different objectives on the table than grey hunters.  For certain missions, WG will be vastly superior.  For other missions, WG are overpriced and grey hunters would be just as good for significantly fewer points.

[Deadnaughty]

I would compare it to a 6 WG with 2 combiplas and 4 stormbolters tbh. The stormshields dont add much as you said but now the unit is more deadly and the extra attacks help if someone tries to assault you off. 4 shots and an 6 attacks in cc for 22 points is not a bad deal imo.

If you want some SS you can go with 2. No need to spend it on 6 when you get to chose which models save against each gun.

[Jarl Caldersson]

I posted this in the last thread but it was missed. It goes over the cost of 10x WG vs 10 GH with same loadout. Then it shows and optimized loadout with Storm Bolters and combi-plasma's. If played smartly the WG can be cheaper, but you put alot of points into a single character. I will add that I believ 10x WG and armed with storm bolters (only 2pts) would be cheaper and better than a GH group armed with max plasma.

 

10x GH w/2x plasma, combi-plasma, plasma pistol=188 pts
10x WG w/3x combi plasma, plasma pistol (closest I can get)=212 pts

GH base cost 16 pts
WG base cost 18 pts

Technically 6x WG could pump out just as much firepower as 10x GHs. 3x storm bolter+plasma pistol (6x bolters, plasma pistol) 3x combi-plasma (3x plasma and 3x bolters). Making WG 148 pts vs GH 188 pts.

[Filius]

Hm, hm … I see, I see … thanks every one for going to deep into that topic.

 

I sum this up for myself like this …

 

• Grey Hunters and Wolf Guards in Power Armour are closer to each other than in 7th.
• Wolf Guards in Power Armour might even be cheaper (in terms of dakka per point) than Grey Hunters.
• The Choice which one you would prefer to take, depends on their designated role on the Battlefield.
• Also (this is kind of my addition to the topic, which funnily became my topic) … it also depends on your strategy regarding the detachments: If your trying to go with Battalion or even Brigade, than Grey Hunters are still a solid choice, esp. because they are so close to Wolf Guards now …

[Hear da Lamentation]

Agreed, but only 6 wounds vs the 10 wounds of GH. And that's a massive difference

[Jarl Caldersson]

10x WG w/ Storm Bolter = 180 pts

10x GH w/ 2x plasma guns, 1x combi-plasma, 7x boltguns= 181 pts.

 

10x Storm Bolters vs Ork Boyz (Rapid Fire)

Equation (((40x*.67)*.50)*.83)=

TOTAL: ~11.2x damage dealt

 

10x Storm Bolters vs Space Marines (Rapid Fire)

Equation (((40x*.67)*.50)*.33)=

TOTAL: ~4.4x damage dealt

 

 

7x boltgun, 2x plasma, 1x combi-plasma vs Ork Boyz (rapid fire)

 

Boltgun=3.9 damage dealt

2x plasma=1.8 damage dealt

Combi-plasma=1.1damage dealt

 

TOTAL: 6.8 damage dealt

 

 

7x boltgun, 2x plasma, 1x combi-plasma vs Space Marines (rapid fire)

 

Boltgun=1.5 damage dealt

2x plasma=1.5damage dealt

Combi-plasma=.9 damage dealt

 

TOTAL: 3.9 damage dealt

 

So it stand that 10x WG storm bolters will out damage and is cheaper than 10x GH w/ combi plasma, 2x plasma, 7x bolters.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Caldersson

[temneb]

10x WG w/ Storm Bolter = 180 pts

10x GH w/ 2x plasma guns, 1x combi-plasma, 7x boltguns= 181 pts.

 

10x Storm Bolters vs Ork Boyz (Rapid Fire)

Equation (((40x*.67)*.50)*.83)=

TOTAL: ~11.2x damage dealt

 

10x Storm Bolters vs Space Marines (Rapid Fire)

Equation (((40x*.67)*.50)*.33)=

TOTAL: ~4.4x damage dealt

 

 

7x boltgun, 2x plasma, 1x combi-plasma vs Ork Boyz (rapid fire)

 

Boltgun=3.9 damage dealt

2x plasma=1.8 damage dealt

Combi-plasma=.9 damage dealt

 

TOTAL: 6.6 damage dealt

 

 

7x boltgun, 2x plasma, 1x combi-plasma vs Space Marines (rapid fire)

 

Boltgun=1.5 damage dealt

2x plasma=.7damage dealt

Combi-plasma=.9 damage dealt

 

TOTAL: 3.1 damage dealt

 

 

So it stand that 10x WG storm bolters will out damage and is cheaper than 10x GH w/ combi plasma, 2x plasma, 7x bolters.

How did you get more damage from one combi plas vs 2 plasma? Vs marines?

[Jarl Caldersson]

]

 

10x WG w/ Storm Bolter = 180 pts

10x GH w/ 2x plasma guns, 1x combi-plasma, 7x boltguns= 181 pts.

10x Storm Bolters vs Ork Boyz (Rapid Fire)

Equation (((40x*.67)*.50)*.83)=

TOTAL: ~11.2x damage dealt

10x Storm Bolters vs Space Marines (Rapid Fire)

Equation (((40x*.67)*.50)*.33)=

TOTAL: ~4.4x damage dealt

7x boltgun, 2x plasma, 1x combi-plasma vs Ork Boyz (rapid fire)

Boltgun=3.9 damage dealt

2x plasma=1.8 damage dealt

Combi-plasma=.9 damage dealt

TOTAL: 6.6 damage dealt

7x boltgun, 2x plasma, 1x combi-plasma vs Space Marines (rapid fire)

Boltgun=1.5 damage dealt

2x plasma=.7damage dealt

Combi-plasma=.9 damage dealt

TOTAL: 3.1 damage dealt

So it stand that 10x WG storm bolters will out damage and is cheaper than 10x GH w/ combi plasma, 2x plasma, 7x bolters.

How did you get more damage from one combi plas vs 2 plasma? Vs marines?

Forgot rapid fire and did the math in my head. It's fixed now. Edited June 29, 2017 by Caldersson

[Hellrender]

But each wolf guard casualty taken from that 10 man unit greatly diminishes the damage the unit can output.

 

The plasma grey hunters suffer less from this as you can remove the bolter hunters first.

 

In addition, the plasma guns are S7, possibly 8, meaning that if needed you can shoot at tougher units like vehicles, bikes, dreadnoughts, 2+ save units and plague marines without losing too much effectiveness. However the 10 stormbolter wolf guard will suffer greatly from not shooting against T4 or lower targets with at most a 3+ save while max unit size.

 

So there is more to it than just comparing the 2 while full strenght.

[Jarl Caldersson]

But each wolf guard casualty taken from that 10 man unit greatly diminishes the damage the unit can output.

 

The plasma grey hunters suffer less from this as you can remove the bolter hunters first.

 

In addition, the plasma guns are S7, possibly 8, meaning that if needed you can shoot at tougher units like vehicles, bikes, dreadnoughts, 2+ save units and plague marines without losing too much effectiveness. However the 10 stormbolter wolf guard will suffer greatly from not shooting against T4 or lower targets with at most a 3+ save while max unit size.

 

So there is more to it than just comparing the 2 while full strenght.

 

If you lose a WG, then you must also remove a GH in the same scenario. True you would only remove a bolt gun vs Storm Bolter, but you won't see significant differences until you are down 5 or 6 models and it is 2 boltguns, 1 combi-plasma, 2 plasma vs 5x storm bolters. Then you have to start taking morale tests and you can quickly lose units. I also didn't calculate if you roll 1's what happens. with 3 overcharged plasma weapons you have a 50% of one of them being slain. So round 2 of combat and you are bound to lose at least 1 plasma. 

 

The points was to show a fair weather fight against a common horde troop you would engage with this kind of troop, aka a Ork Boyz. Then also show a fair weather fight against a common tougher troop aka a Space Marine. We could talk about all the difference enemies and this and that. We can't think of every scenario and figure out what troops is best, so I used a common troop.

 

 

I see your point at having tougher enemies, as they are getting more common it seems, so I'll plug it in.

 

10x Storm Bolters vs T5-7, 3+ Save enemies (rapid fire)

Equation (((40x*.67)*.33)*.33)= 

TOTAL: ~2.9x damage dealt

 

7x boltgun, 2x plasma, 1x combi-plasma vs T5-7, 3+ Save enemies (rapid fire)

 

Boltgun= Equation (((14x*.67)*.33)*.33)= 1.0 damage dealt

2x plasma=Equation (((4x*.67)*.67 or .5)*.83)=1.5 damage dealt (1.1 damage if T7)

Combi-plasma=Equation (((2x*.5)*.33)*.33)+(((2x*.5)*.67 or .5)*.83)=.7 damage dealt (.6 damage if T7)  

TOTAL: 3.2 damage dealt (2.7 if T7)

 

so Storm Bolters will do 2.9x damage, while the GH will do around the same at 2.7 to 3.2 damage.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Caldersson

[Hellrender]

Thats bit entirely true.

 

According to your own calculations, against orks a single stormbolter does 1,12 wound. A boltgun only 0.56 wounds.

 

Which means i can lose 2 bolter grey hunters and lose the same effetiveness as when i lose a single wolf guard, that while being just as easy to kill.

[Jarl Caldersson]

Thats bit entirely true.

 

According to your own calculations, against orks a single stormbolter does 1,12 wound. A boltgun only 0.56 wounds.

 

Which means i can lose 2 bolter grey hunters and lose the same effetiveness as when i lose a single wolf guard, that while being just as easy to kill.

 

You also have to remember if you are going against 20x Boyz (for example) attacking first, and the WG can kill 11 of them in the first round, you only have to worry about 9 shots coming back. Meanwhile the GH will kill only 7 Boyz, and have 13 shots coming back. This reduces the risk of losing units for the WG vs the GH. WG will wipe the 20 Boyz by round 2 or 3, and only have 9 shots incoming. Meanwhile the GH will take 3 or 4 turns and take 19 shots.

[Hellrender]

But that is again in a vacuum, and not taking into account the rest of their army, like meganobz (which we already established are better shot at by grey hunters), and other units.

 

Also mind, i'm not saying that Grey hunters are better. Jus that they are not bad. They have a place and role to fullfil. Just like Wolf Guard.

[Jarl Caldersson]

5x Storm Bolters vs Ork Boyz (Rapid Fire)
TOTAL: ~5.6x damage dealt

5x Storm Bolters vs Space Marines (Rapid Fire)
TOTAL: ~2.2x damage dealt


2x boltgun, 2x plasma, 1x combi-plasma vs Ork Boyz (rapid fire)
Boltgun=1.1 damage dealt
2x plasma=1.8 damage dealt
Combi-plasma=1.1damage dealt
TOTAL: 4.0 damage dealt

2x boltgun, 2x plasma, 1x combi-plasma vs Space Marines (rapid fire)
Boltgun=.4 damage dealt
2x plasma=1.5damage dealt
Combi-plasma=.9 damage dealt
TOTAL: 2.8 damage dealt

 

So there you go there the math for 50% casualty  WG w/SB and GH with 2bolter/2plasma/1combi-plasma against some common horde and tough enemies.

[Jarl Caldersson]

But that is again in a vacuum, and not taking into account the rest of their army, like meganobz (which we already established are better shot at by grey hunters), and other units.

 

Also mind, i'm not saying that Grey hunters are better. Jus that they are not bad. They have a place and role to fullfil. Just like Wolf Guard.

 

They have their place, its just that the WG are 2 points more expensive (20 for a whole squad) and are easily outfitted to do almost any job better. I just see WG being the true work horse of the SW's rather than GH's, and WG are the ones that were really treated well vs GH's.