13 replies to this topic

[Remtek]

Been doing some numbers on how much damage we can get per point. There are some numbers here that really surprise me, the most obvious one is how little dmg a DC dread does assaulting (considering the points you are paying), compared to shooting units. Jump plasma vets do more dmg to a veichle (just dropping down and shooting) than a DC dread does shooting and assaulting combined.

 

Overall things seems fairly balanced, considering the low survivability of infantry they should be doing more dmg (and they do). 

 

Considering how much harder it is to assault a unit compared to shooting. And with the new fall back mechanics, assault is not in a great place as a pure dmg dealer. I'm not discounting the phase, but the big advantage with assault units appears to be to stop expensive models from shooting and general disruption. Not saying assault is dead, it's just very different and more flexible now , so naturally the dmg should be lower, but is it too low?

 

The other glaring issue is how tanky razorbacks are compared to how much dmg they put out. Most veichles are at the 500% mark in terms of durability, infantery is hard to calculate, but we can assume it's very low and slightly better for long range units. 

 

Shooty dreads seem to be in a good place, the Predators not so much. Fire Raptor is looking really strong as the range is better than a Stormraven and it fits vs both infantry and mech lists. Vs many smite lists it can be tricky to yolo in a stormraven, raptor has a nice advantage there. 

 

I have not added T8 models only t7 with and without invul, but it's fair to assume that Lascannons > everything else due to str9. 

 

Disclaimer: The dmg to point effiency is purely raw dmg. Some of these units are better geared towards infantry (fire raptor, wyvern etc.) Some have better range/mobility. The rating only considers raw dmg, and does not factor in other things that can be useful. 

 

Edit: I havent double checked all numbers, please let me know if you find any errors. We are not assuming any auras, so bs2+ ven dreads would drop slightly in efficiency with re-rolls compared to bs3+.

 

Edited by Jolemai, 01 September 2020 - 09:35 AM.

[LutherMax]

Blimey, you've been busy!

[Boudan]

It appears that at 5 points, devastator cherubs are the MVP.

[The Unseen]

I'm curious as to what you mean with jump pack vets with plasma outdoing a DC dread? DC dread causes almost 9, they do 3, and the DC dread just barely edges out over them points efficiency wise, 404% to 400%?

[Fidelius Animo]

I'm curious as to what you mean with jump pack vets with plasma outdoing a DC dread? DC dread causes almost 9, they do 3, and the DC dread just barely edges out over them points efficiency wise, 404% to 400%?

Plasma vets are 462%, fully loaded dev squad is 400

[Remtek]

It appears that at 5 points, devastator cherubs are the MVP.

 

They die really quickly though, i guess it depends on terrain and who goes first, the nice thing is you can use the cherub on the one your signum buffing.

 

I'm curious as to what you mean with jump pack vets with plasma outdoing a DC dread? DC dread causes almost 9, they do 3, and the DC dread just barely edges out over them points efficiency wise, 404% to 400%?

 

A sketchy comparison i agree. Though a lot of things have to go right in order to get a charge off, then again the DC dread will be much harder to kill in the following turn. 

 

If we compare the DC dread to a double twin las venerable dread. The ven dread is at 341% efficiency compared to 404% of DC dread. While the ven dread can pretty much point and click at 48 inch range, you will need to be in the thick of things with a combat dread. It's much more difficult to get cover with non infantry in 8th as well. 

Same with termies, they are doing an avg of 5 hits in combat at rend 3 dmg 3. They can take a beating for sure, but cannot deal with screens at all.

[Are Verlo]

Great work man! I love this kind off stuff. I´ll plant my ass in the sofa and delegate you some assignments for next weekend ;-P

 

When we (and I mean you and the other guys) do this I need you to check weapon and squad configurations vs their optimal or intended target.

 

For instance lets check "LRBP" (Land Raider Busting Potency). Check what units have their optimal damage vs T8, 2+ and how much damage they do per point spendt on doing this.

There are also plenty of T8 3+ tanks out there, you have my permission do make a spreadsheet and analyze the results for this target as well ;-D

How reliable the unit can reach its target and other factors are out of the equation, but should lay the framework for the discussion

 

Then do another vs "CBP" (Chaff Busting Potency), find out what units clear T3, 5+ or T3 6+ the most efficient.

 

My hypothesis is that DC with JP, bolters and chainswords do well in CBP, but this is really the only role they do well.

I guess flamer devs can kill just as efficient, but they pack half the bodies and need some kind of transport.

[Remtek]

Chaffhammer incoming!

 

Obviously charging something is more difficult than shooting and often you don't want to shoot the same unit you are assaulting. Deep striking in give the option (sometimes) Of placing your models 12 inches from a shooting target while keeping one model within 9" for a secondary assault target.

 

- I think stormbolters are the big winner here for jump infantry, a 10 man squad can put out 40 shots, they also come with LD 8/9. Sarge has 3 base attacks which fits nicely with a thunderhammer.

- Fire Raptor is proving to be a great all rounder. Kinda like missle devs, just more efficient.

- If you ally in IG, the heavy mortars are also in a league of their own. 

- DC seem to do best in Transports as you are less shooty-more choppy  and more likely to make it into assault.

- Scouts are looking really good overall for maelstorm (deploying hidden midfield on objectives) Or in a low drop list where you will be going first and turn 1 charging a lot. (And potentially more command points)

- For shooting MEQ - STR5 ap1 seems to be very strong, or just charging them with various units.

- Plasma is great vs MC/Termies/Veichles, but not really great vs MEQ.

- Grav is overall worse than plasma dmg wise, but better optimal range and no overheat. 

 

[The Unseen]

Just a note Remtek, you can only have 5 company vets per squad.

[Are Verlo]

Heavy mortar team? Some points are off or a misleading name.
We have the heavy mortar at 60p plus 12 for the crew
Heavy quad launcher for 73 and 12 for the crew
Or are we takling heavy weapons teams? A full squad of 3 teams with mortars have a total cost of 27 pts.

I love the work you put in 👍🏻

[Subsided]

I am not seeing that a VDread can take 2 Twin Lascannons. In the index or Battlescribe. Is that a typo or counting just the 1 Twin Las they can take?

Am I missing something? I've been running 2 quad lasPreds and they work amazingly. But a 2+ BS would do wonders with 4 shots and cheaper.

Loving these. I've been running 2 assaultbacks and they do well killing bikers. They also take a beating.

In 7th I lost all the time. In 8th I haven't lost in like 10 matches. All of this is exciting now.

[Remtek]

Just a note Remtek, you can only have 5 company vets per squad.

Whops, i had these at 5 initially but bumped them to 10 for easier comparison with DC.

 

 

Heavy mortar team? Some points are off or a misleading name.
We have the heavy mortar at 60p plus 12 for the crew
Heavy quad launcher for 73 and 12 for the crew
Or are we takling heavy weapons teams? A full squad of 3 teams with mortars have a total cost of 27 pts.

I love the work you put in

 

Sorry, i mixed up the names. I meant Heavy Weapons Team from IG. I think max unit size is 3, but 6 d6 shots was easier to calculate. 

 

I am not seeing that a VDread can take 2 Twin Lascannons. In the index or Battlescribe. Is that a typo or counting just the 1 Twin Las they can take?

Am I missing something? I've been running 2 quad lasPreds and they work amazingly. But a 2+ BS would do wonders with 4 shots and cheaper.

Loving these. I've been running 2 assaultbacks and they do well killing bikers. They also take a beating.

In 7th I lost all the time. In 8th I haven't lost in like 10 matches. All of this is exciting now.

 

 

Oh i missed that. It also looks like BA still cant take them either :/. Because everything has split fire running two of them them with Twin Autocannon + Twin Las looks to be a strong alternative

 

Or 

 

BA still has the option for a Contemptor Mortis Dread. It's identical to ven dread, except you must take identical weapons. Both have 6+ fnp, but the mortis has 5++, one more wound and a degrading profile (BS3+ at 3-5 wounds) and costs roughly 3,1 melta bombs more than ven. 

 

Or 

Twin Las Razorbacks if you want the most durable lascannon platform. 

[Arkhanist]

You can take a conventional or ven dread as tllc/tlac or 2x tlac, but yeah you need to go codex for the ven version. Forgeworld also has the mkV mortis dread for the cost of a meltabomb over a normal mkV which lets you take basically any pair of dread heavy weapon, and is also in the heavy slot. For 2+BS twin heavy loadout, it's the relic deredeo or non-relic contemptor mortis.

[Jolemai]

Added.