Lemondish Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 (edited) Yeah, I'm using them as Vanguard vets. You get enough claws and heads in the packet to make a 10-man squad from 2 lots, without having 2 sergeant models/pairs of claws. There is even a head with a moulded stripe for combat squad leader/lieutenant, plus a bare head. There is also a pair of Melta Bombs as well, if you like adding them. You know, I think I'll do the same with the furies as vanguard vets. I really like the Primaris models and haven't liked the vanilla squats for a long time, but they look pretty badass and there's nothing more RG to me than lightning claws. Oh, and snipers. Which is why I'm also thinking of using one of the Mor Deythan models as Lias for those times I'm feeling sneaky and play Raptors instead. Edited August 17, 2017 by Lemondish Damo1701 and Race Bannon 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damo1701 Posted August 31, 2017 Author Share Posted August 31, 2017 Ok, two weeks after getting the models I needed, assembling and either painting, or basecoating the models, I managed to field the following list, with very few proxies in the Tactical Squads. I'm busy painting for HHotE at the moment, but, building will come along. Hidden Content ++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [104 PL, 1997pts] +++ No Force Org Slot +**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard. Rules: Shadow Masters+ HQ +Captain [5 PL, 88pts]: Power fist, Storm bolter. Rules: And They Shall Know No FearKayvaan Shrike [8 PL, 150pts]. Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear+ Troops +Scout Squad [6 PL, 90pts]: 5x Camo cloak. Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle. 4x Scout w/Sniper Rifle: 4x Sniper rifleTactical Squad [9 PL, 179pts]. Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear. 7x Space Marine. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gunTactical Squad [9 PL, 179pts]. Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear. 7x Space Marine. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gunTactical Squad [5 PL, 90pts]. Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear. 3x Space Marine. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Lightning Claw. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: MeltagunTactical Squad [5 PL, 90pts]. Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear. 3x Space Marine. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Lightning Claw. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun+ Elites +Relic Sicarian Punisher Assault Tank [14 PL, 285pts]: Heavy Bolter, Punisher Rotary Cannon, Two LascannonsVanguard Veteran Squad [16 PL, 300pts]: Jump Pack. Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw. Veteran Sergeant: 2x Lightning Claw+ Fast Attack +Bike Squad [9 PL, 176pts]. Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear. Biker Sergeant: Combi-plasma, Twin boltgun. 2x Space Marine Biker w/Chainsword: 2x Twin boltgun. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun, Twin boltgun. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun, Twin boltgun+ Heavy Support +Demios Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer [10 PL, 185pts]: Storm bolter. Rules: Explodes (6"/D3), Power Capacitor, Smoke LaunchersDevastator Squad [8 PL, 185pts]: Armorium Cherub. Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear. Space Marine Sergeant: Combi-plasma. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon++ Total: [104 PL, 1997pts] ++ This list was rather interesting to play, and I learned a lot from it. The first thing I learned was that, even with their speed, bikes just aren't fast enough to support units that have used Strike from the Shadows. My placement was off on the units coming from the shadows, as they could only get in combat with the Conscripts that were shielding the heavy armour and characters. However, Shrike managed to make a 3" charge on the second attempt, and the Vanguard made the charge on their second attempt too... Bloody dice... They totally blended the conscripts. Leaving me able to force two of my opponents Russ-commanders out of position, and force his Company Commander to fall back to avoid being diced. The two units I had hoped to perform above their weight failed totally... The Vindicator and the Sicarian Punisher whiffed all game, doing sod-all to whatever they fired at, and the Sicarian had the temerity to die to hellhounds... Did I mention I hate the mechanics of this edition?? Valkyries need to lose their Grav-chute insertion rule or ensure that units that use it cannot charge... I mean, Bullgryns with slabshields, a Priest, and an astropath giving them both +1A and +1 Sv is totally insane... If Guard units can jump out of a valkyrie, why can't marines do it from Storm Ravens??? I am seriously thinking about dropping some bodies and bikes, and fitting a Land Raider in there somewhere. The extra Lascannons will certainly be useful. Now, on to Squad Loadouts. As many will know, I like to play WYSIWYG, unless I am trialling something that I haven't built yet. So, options that I have are restricted to what the models have, and, no, I'm not overly excited by the idea of pulling pieces off painted models to replace them with unpainted pieces of wargear. I have 5 Forgeworld Plasma Cannons that I was thinking about using in upping tactical squad numbers, however, it is looking increasingly like I will have to purchase more heavy weapons, and move away from Tactical Squads towards Devastator Squads, almost like something below: Hidden Content ++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [31 PL, 498pts] +++ No Force Org Slot +**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard+ HQ +Captain [5 PL, 88pts]: Power fist, Storm bolter+ Heavy Support +Demios Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer [10 PL, 185pts]: Storm bolterDevastator Squad [8 PL, 90pts]: Armorium Cherub. 2x Space Marine. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolterDevastator Squad [8 PL, 135pts]: Armorium Cherub. 2x Space Marine. Space Marine Sergeant: Combi-plasma. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [43 PL, 733pts] +++ No Force Org Slot +**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard+ HQ +Captain in Cataphractii Armor [8 PL, 167pts]: Chainfist, Combi-melta+ Heavy Support +Devastator Squad [8 PL, 90pts]: Armorium Cherub. 2x Space Marine. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolterDevastator Squad [8 PL, 120pts]: Armorium Cherub. 2x Space Marine. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: LascannonLand Raider [19 PL, 356pts]: Twin heavy bolter, 2x Twin lascannon++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [37 PL, 760pts] +++ No Force Org Slot +**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard+ HQ +Kayvaan Shrike [8 PL, 150pts]+ Elites +Relic Sicarian Punisher Assault Tank [14 PL, 285pts]: Heavy Bolter, Punisher Rotary Cannon, Two LascannonsSternguard Veteran Squad [7 PL, 175pts]. Space Marine Veteran: Combi-melta. Space Marine Veteran: Combi-melta. Space Marine Veteran: Combi-melta. Space Marine Veteran: Combi-melta. Veteran Sergeant: Combi-meltaVanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 150pts]: Jump Pack. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw. Veteran Sergeant: 2x Lightning Claw++ Total: [111 PL, 1991pts] ++ I honestly don't want to go that route, as it seems very counter-Raven Guard to field so many Devastators, rather than a balanced army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Valkyries need to lose their Grav-chute insertion rule or ensure that units that use it cannot charge... I mean, Bullgryns with slabshields, a Priest, and an astropath giving them both +1A and +1 Sv is totally insane... If Guard units can jump out of a valkyrie, why can't marines do it from Storm Ravens??? You wash your mouth out this instant! This is my favourite tactic in the whole of 8th! Except I add in a Lord Commissar with a power fist and a Primaris Psyker (although an Astropath is probably better use of points) It is a lot of points to do that and to be fair, its although its good, its not OP Otherwise youre saying you're afraid of a few guardsmen Personally I think your new list for 2000pts really lacks bodies... When I've messed around with 2000pts lists even with Primaris marines (including the way over costed Plasma Inceptors) I can bring more to the table than that. However looking at your previous list it seems you lost some flexability with such large squads and perhaps no mounted mobile elements? Bad dice always skew the result. Personally I would tinker with your first list than try the second. You lose lots of bodies, flexibility and command points with that list. With a few changes you could get a double battalion and really maximise CP's. Damo1701 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damo1701 Posted August 31, 2017 Author Share Posted August 31, 2017 Valkyries need to lose their Grav-chute insertion rule or ensure that units that use it cannot charge... I mean, Bullgryns with slabshields, a Priest, and an astropath giving them both +1A and +1 Sv is totally insane... If Guard units can jump out of a valkyrie, why can't marines do it from Storm Ravens??? You wash your mouth out this instant! This is my favourite tactic in the whole of 8th! Except I add in a Lord Commissar with a power fist and a Primaris Psyker (although an Astropath is probably better use of points) It is a lot of points to do that and to be fair, its although its good, its not OP Otherwise youre saying you're afraid of a few guardsmen Personally I think your new list for 2000pts really lacks bodies... When I've messed around with 2000pts lists even with Primaris marines (including the way over costed Plasma Inceptors) I can bring more to the table than that. However looking at your previous list it seems you lost some flexability with such large squads and perhaps no mounted mobile elements? Bad dice always skew the result. Personally I would tinker with your first list than try the second. You lose lots of bodies, flexibility and command points with that list. With a few changes you could get a double battalion and really maximise CP's. If I'm honest, I've had an awful lot of trouble facing Guard in this edition. There are far too many auras, bonuses, orders etc that all come without any real penalty. When you combine them together, they can give almost any army a damn good rinsing. Now, there is very little that I've found in the context of enabling my Raven Guard to approach an equal footing with guard. I can't compete with Command Points, I'm struggling with bringing either enough firepower or combat power in the right numbers to do enough damage, especially with the morale mitigation Guard have access to. I've come up with another new list, which, sure, is light on bodies, but, should have enough punch to deliver the damage I need done in the early game. Hidden Content ++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [101 PL, 1994pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot + **Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard + HQ + Captain [5 PL, 80pts]: Power sword, Storm bolter Lieutenants [4 PL, 64pts] . Lieutenant: Chainsword, Power maul + Troops + Tactical Squad [5 PL, 93pts] . 3x Space Marine . Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma . Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun Tactical Squad [5 PL, 105pts] . 3x Space Marine . Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon Tactical Squad [5 PL, 90pts] . 3x Space Marine . Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Lightning Claw . Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun + Elites + Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, 165pts]: Combi-bolter, Dreadnought combat weapon, Kheres pattern assault cannon Relic Sicarian Punisher Assault Tank [14 PL, 285pts]: Heavy Bolter, Punisher Rotary Cannon, Two Lascannons + Heavy Support + Demios Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer [10 PL, 185pts]: Storm bolter Devastator Squad [11 PL, 191pts] . 2x Space Marine . Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon + Flyer + Fire Raptor Assault Gunship [19 PL, 418pts]: 2 Twin Hellstrike Launchers, 2x Quad heavy bolter, Twin avenger bolt cannon Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 318pts]: Twin lascannon, Twin multi-melta, Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers ++ Total: [101 PL, 1994pts] ++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Captain Vyper Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 While the Bullgryns in a Valkyrie thing is neat, its hardly OP. They get 16? attacks on the turn they charge (13 in subsequent turns), assuming they have mauls, that's 16 Str 7 attacks, so, ~11 hits? 7 Wounds? Against MEQ thats what 3? 4? dead marines? Given, if they go after armor then the return is quite a bit better since they are D2, however they still have drawbacks, namely the 9" deployment restriction. Its exactly the same as most units "deep strike". Also there's a semi-decent chance one Bullgryn just straight up dies when they hop out. Cool for guard, but on paper they seem like Terminators for SM, good at a handful of things, good in the sense that most guard units don't do that task well, but in the grand scheme of killy/points, not broken. When I read your frustrations, I get this creeping feeling that your Guard opponent "forgets" his rules in a way that favors himself knowing that you don't know his rules to enforce them. Current guard is so much more streamlined than old guard, and the "basics" while more complex than a lot of armies out there is not nearly what it used to be (from an orders/buffs perspective, imo). Knowing is half the battle, as the saying goes! Damo1701 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damo1701 Posted August 31, 2017 Author Share Posted August 31, 2017 (edited) So, the Valkyrie thing is like Deep Strike?? Hmmm........ EDIT: So, after reading through things in Index Imperium 2, I can see that I was taken for a ride last night, in that the Bullgryns not only deployed 1.5" away from my Lascannon devastator, but, they also rerolled the attacks that missed, which the priest aura doesn't confer, just a +1A. Now, since reading it, and talking about it on here, I remember a conversation we had a while ago about the fact Grav-Chute Insertion was like Deep Strike. Will have to have a conversation about that. So, with the list that I played, I need to figure out what needs tweaking, and whether some Assault Marines or Sternguard would be a better fit than the bikes, and just burn extra CP to support Shrike and the Vanguard. I'll knock up a couple of lists and see what falls where. Edited September 1, 2017 by Damo1701 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Captain Vyper Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 (edited) So, the Valkyrie thing is like Deep Strike?? Hmmm........ EDIT: So, after reading through things in Index Imperium 2, I can see that I was taken for a ride last night, in that the Bullgryns not only deployed 1.5" away from my Lascannon devastator, but, they also rerolled the attacks that missed, which the priest aura doesn't confer, just a +1A. Now, since reading it, and talking about it on here, I remember a conversation we had a while ago about the fact Grav-Chute Insertion was like Deep Strike. Will have to have a conversation about that. While it's unfortunate to hear that, and there is always the chance it was just an honest mistake, I am glad when I read your post that I got the suspicion this was happening. It's unfortunate that players will have an occurrence of "selective memory" when it comes to these new rules, taking awsome/neat stuff from the new rules, and then just rolling in stuff from the old rules to create their own broken version. On a side note, I like your first list, and if I wanted to try to make it improved, I would consider dropping some combination of Bikes/1 10-Man Tactical/Scouts to get enough points to fit in a Storm Raven, loaded for bear, with those 2 5-Man Tactical squads inside (and maybe Shrike). That could give you something like: 2 Lascannons, Typhoon Missle Launcher, 2 Stormstrike Missles, AND 2 Hurricane Bolters. This is basically the same/better relative firepower as the stuff you would be taking, with a higher quality AT (Las/Missles over plasma, more D), AND it gives a ride to the two 5-Man tacticals so they can cap objectives easier, AND it lowers your drop count to secure first turn much easier (lowers drop count by 4). And imho it's also fluffier. Also if you end up with the points, id throw Combi-Meltas on those Tac sergeants. Also while it fits the "rule of cool" the Combi-Plas on the Dev sergeant to me is a waste of points. While it fits and its nice, I would want my Devs in a position where he isn't in range to use that unless its a dire circumstance (24" paired with 48" is a mismatch, even if he shoots at a different unit) Edited September 1, 2017 by ltvyper Damo1701 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 RE: Priests and Valk Priests, you are correct they only confer +1A, although I have heard multiple sources say they still provide "Zealot" (ie. re-roll misses in CC). I'm not sure where this is coming from? I suspect it is a hangover from 7th, unless theres something at the beginning of the Ministorum section that I am missing The Valk one is a bit trickier... and has been discussed in the IG forum. The Grav-Chute insertion is a form of "disembarkation" vs reserve entry. The rule reads (or can read) that you can "Disembark" anywhere along the flight path of the Valk, provided its more than 9" away from an enemy. Disembarking is important, because according to the Disembarkation rule you can still act normally after your 3" disembark! So despite having to be deployed 9" away from an enemy, you can still move towards them afterwards. So in the case of Bullgryns, the closest he could be is 3", which is still an impossible charge to fail (without modifiers). The arguments against this interpretation are that "Grav-chute insertion" is mentioned in the reserve rules. However the index entry specifically describes it the mechanic a disembark. This is logical because the units are "on the board" and not held back in reserves at the beginning of the game like Scion grav-chutes. I would argue the same for drop pods in the codex vs the index where they were specifically called out that they could only disembark and not move. Race Bannon 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damo1701 Posted September 1, 2017 Author Share Posted September 1, 2017 RE: Priests and Valk Priests, you are correct they only confer +1A, although I have heard multiple sources say they still provide "Zealot" (ie. re-roll misses in CC). I'm not sure where this is coming from? I suspect it is a hangover from 7th, unless theres something at the beginning of the Ministorum section that I am missing The Valk one is a bit trickier... and has been discussed in the IG forum. The Grav-Chute insertion is a form of "disembarkation" vs reserve entry. The rule reads (or can read) that you can "Disembark" anywhere along the flight path of the Valk, provided its more than 9" away from an enemy. Disembarking is important, because according to the Disembarkation rule you can still act normally after your 3" disembark! So despite having to be deployed 9" away from an enemy, you can still move towards them afterwards. So in the case of Bullgryns, the closest he could be is 3", which is still an impossible charge to fail (without modifiers). The arguments against this interpretation are that "Grav-chute insertion" is mentioned in the reserve rules. However the index entry specifically describes it the mechanic a disembark. This is logical because the units are "on the board" and not held back in reserves at the beginning of the game like Scion grav-chutes. I would argue the same for drop pods in the codex vs the index where they were specifically called out that they could only disembark and not move. 1) I do think this might be a hold-over from 7th, and as we discussed, not applicable in this edition, just the +1A. 2) I see what you are thinking, however, with Grav-Chutes specifically mentioned in the BRB, paired with the rule, and the fact it takes time to get to the ground from a plane, the 9" range is about right, otherwise it's a pointless sentence. The guy on the phone agreed that they shouldn't move when I phoned Customer Services/Mail Order. However, the local GW manager thinks the way you do. But, he expects it to be changed with the codex release. Unless s9mething happens during the next big GW tourney, and Chuting Bullgryns dominate too much. After having an in-depth talk, and the two opposing views from representatives of GW, my friend is going to ask on Facebook for clarification, and we are going to play it the latter way, as that was his initial interpretation until he went on the internet. The main reason we both thought that it should be treated like Deep Strike was because the Ogryns, while inside the Valkyrie, aren't on the table, but arriving mid turn due to a vehicle rule involving Grav-Chutes. If the Valkyrie was in hover mode, it would be different, But, as it's "zooming" it makes more sense for the disembarking to take longer. It took some discussion, But, we went with the original interpretation because it made more sense to both of us, at least, until the codex or an FAQ is released addressing that. I'm going to give my standard list another go at some point, and will try not to make the same mistakes I made last time, while ensuring I don't just play a single game and scrap a list. I like the idea of adding a Storm Raven, but I might also need to find the points and space for a Contemptor... always feel naked without one on the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 As long as you are both on the same page and know what to expect! The thread in the IG forum was still split at the end of the discussion too ;) Hopefully it gets clarified! I wouldn't get caught up between hover and "zoom" as the rule doesn't make a distinguishment there. Similarly there is no requirement in this edition for any flyer (at least none that I have seen) for it to be in hover for a unit to disembark in general. While were on the topic the Storm Raven lost its ability to do its unit insertion from 7th too FYI Damo1701 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 As long as you are both on the same page and know what to expect! The thread in the IG forum was still split at the end of the discussion too Hopefully it gets clarified! I wouldn't get caught up between hover and "zoom" as the rule doesn't make a distinguishment there. Similarly there is no requirement in this edition for any flyer (at least none that I have seen) for it to be in hover for a unit to disembark in general. While were on the topic the Storm Raven lost its ability to do its unit insertion from 7th too FYI That still seems so odd that it's split. It's very, very clear the unit is disembarking. The name of the rule is unique: "Grav-chute insertion", which isn't mentioned anywhere else in the index or rulebook at all. Even the grav-chute deployment option for Scions is called "Aerial drop" and specifically says "deploy" and describes every step just like reinforcements. Insertion does not, except the 9'' rule, which is also shared with scouts infiltrating and Raven Guard setting up in the shadows, both things we know allow movement. Furthermore, they can disembark at any point during the movement phase according to the rule, and not just at the end of it like reinforcements. It even has a built-in mechanic to reign in the strength of the alpha strike potential based on the Valkyrie's distance moved. Seems like the rule is clear in intent and wording to me. But it's good your friend agreed to play it your way, especially since games with predictable outcomes based on the quality of the lists in play tend to limit the fun. Damo1701 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Captain Vyper Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 I would argue the same for drop pods in the codex vs the index where they were specifically called out that they could only disembark and not move. From what I can see, the rules for Pods are the exact same between Codex/Index. Pods do have something that distinguishes them from the wording of Grav-Chute in that Pods happen At the end of the movement phase. The Grav Chute Insertion happens at any point during it's move. That being said, I can see the obscurity over the terminology. Are the passengers considered in Tactical Reserve? Is disembarkation in this context a keyword relating the two arguments? etc. etc. I personally see that definition including the 9" and to me I think "If they wanted you to charge, why not just make it 3" from the line of passing? That is hardly a strong argument to justify RAI, but regardless, it isn't OP. I'm guessing you can even make a deadlier combat unit using inquisition forces rather than Bullgryn (maybe?). The bigger issue is the rerolling hits and "mis-remembering" rules. Damo1701 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damo1701 Posted September 11, 2017 Author Share Posted September 11, 2017 My first earned win today! My list: Hidden Content ++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [51 PL, 1010pts] +++ No Force Org Slot +**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard+ HQ +Kayvaan Shrike [8 PL, 150pts]+ Elites +Relic Sicarian Punisher Assault Tank [14 PL, 285pts]: Heavy Bolter, Punisher Rotary Cannon, Two LascannonsTartaros Terminator Squad [13 PL, 270pts]. Tartaros Sergeant: Chainfist, Plasma blaster. Tartaros Terminator w/Heavy Weapon: Chainfist, Reaper autocannon. 3x Tartaros Terminator w/LCs: 3x Lightning Claw (Pair)Vanguard Veteran Squad [16 PL, 305pts]: Jump Pack, Melta bombs. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw. Veteran Sergeant: 2x Lightning Claw++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [53 PL, 991pts] +++ No Force Org Slot +**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard+ HQ +Lieutenants [4 PL, 63pts]. Lieutenant: Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun, The Primarch's WrathLieutenants [5 PL, 82pts]. Lieutenant: Chainsword, Jump Pack, Power sword+ Troops +Scout Squad [6 PL, 90pts]: 5x Camo cloak. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle. 4x Scout w/Sniper Rifle: 4x Sniper rifleTactical Squad [5 PL, 93pts]. 3x Space Marine. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gunTactical Squad [5 PL, 93pts]. 3x Space Marine. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun+ Heavy Support +Demios Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer [10 PL, 185pts]: Storm bolterDevastator Squad [8 PL, 185pts]: Armorium Cherub. Space Marine Sergeant: Combi-plasma. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon+ Dedicated Transport +Razorback [5 PL, 100pts]: Twin assault cannonRazorback [5 PL, 100pts]: Twin assault cannon++ Total: [104 PL, 2001pts] ++ His list - roughly: Pask in an LR Battle Tank 2 LRBT Tank Commanders Company Commander Platoon Commander 2 Commissars 3 Primaris Psykers Priest 3 Bullgryns - Slab Shields 2 Punisher Battle Tanks 3 Infantry Squads Plasma + Heavy Bolter 2 5-man Scion Squads 2x Plasma in each squad Valkyrie 40 Conscripts. Deployment: Striking from the shadows: Shrike, Vanguard, Tartaros, Devastators (Method to my madness). Deployed: Right Flank to left, I only used 4' of my 6' deployment zone - Vindicator, Sicarian, Razorback (with embarked squad) Scouts plus relic Lieutenant, Razorback. His deployment, my right to left: Punisher, Tank Commander, Infantry Squad + Commissar + 1 Primaris Psyker, Pask, Punisher, Tank Commander, Infantry Squad Screening his back field - Conscripts, Psyker, Commissar, Infantry Squad, Valkyrie. He failed to sieze. Shadows deployment - Devastators - prime firing line on my rightmost flank, supporting the vindicator, and far away from the valkyrie containing the bullgryns etc. Shrike, Tartaros, Vanguard, command positions to roll up his left (my right) flank and proceed towards the centre of his deployment zone. Basically, I wiped the conscripts out in my first round of shooting from the razorbacks and sicarian punisher, I brought a tank commander closest to my devastators to half strength, whiffed the shots at the valkyrie, only doing 4 damage from the devastators, I then charged pask with Shrike, the wounded Tank Commander with the terminators, and the vanguard whiffed their charge agaisnt the commissar and psyker who were exposed, even with rerolls. At the end of my first turn, pask is dazed having taken 2 wounds from Shrike, the Tank commander engaged by the terminators was a smoking wreck thanks to 2 chainfists, and an awful lot was threatened. His first turn saw his bullgryns disembark in his deployment zone to make a charge against the vanguard, who deserved it after whiffing their charge... Everything still in combat "fell back" out of the way, and the valkyrie swooped across the table to sit in my deployment zone. The psychic phase saw shrike smited into goo by two primaris psykers. His shooting was focussed on my Terminators, who suffered 7 wounds in total, felling 4 of them, leaving the sergeant (left over wound from overwatch) looking rather cross. Morale saw the terminator sergeant consider eating his plasma blast gun, but, on consideration, he decided it wasn't worth the dishonour. My turn two saw the lone terminator position himself to take out the primaris who smited Shrike, while the scouts capped 2 mortal wounds off the preist with the bullgryns, while the rest of the shooting phase was either whiffed, or badly whiffed. In the combat phase, the terminator charged the primaris psyker, and circumscized him with his chainfist, what a kind fellow... The vanguard capped off the psyker, preist, and 2 Bullgryns, suffering a single casualty in return, and, in the morale phase, the bullgryn curled up and cried because his buddies were deli-sliced all around him. Then we remembered that Bullgrynd were LD8... Grrrrrrr. He called it there though, as his Bullgryn unit didn't hit as hard as he hoped they would, even with a 1+ armour save, and his infantry count was too low to counter what I had. In his opinion. So, I've found the list I like, but I will now have to face those :cuss hellhounds again, and 2 chimeras with bullgryns in, as well as being back to pask and 2 tank commanders.... Guard Codex can't come fast enough. duz_ 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claws and Effect Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 Cool! Glad you found a list you like. Since you left the flyers on Deliverance, you'll probably find the Hellhounds aren't quite as annoying. Damo1701 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damo1701 Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 Cool! Glad you found a list you like. Since you left the flyers on Deliverance, you'll probably find the Hellhounds aren't quite as annoying. Well... I know how to neuter the Hellhounds... I will just have to charge them with Shrike and the Terminators. That should make a mess of them, or at least keep them from flaming anything. There has been some back-and-forth about either announced or rumoured changes to the core rules, especially in Matched Play. I'm kind of on the fence as to continue going along the points route, or, just dig my heels in, and say we are going to play some narrative games, with narrative lists. I can clearly see that taking Tank Commanders instead of normal tanks is literally playing for the advantage, like taking multiple company commanders instead of platoon commanders just because they can issue multiple orders. Heck, we spent some time talking about his army list, and the command structure it would normally have. For example, 1 conscript blob, 2-5 guardsmen squads and a heavy weapons squad would count as a platoon. Take that twice, and you unlock a company commander. Likewise, 1 tank commander for every 2 LRBTs would be sensible, with 2-3 sets like that unlocking Pask. Commissars - most regiments have between 1 and 3 commissars, so that I can see, a priest? Sure! With narrative guiding list writing, rather than list writing being the be all etc, I can see more interesting games ahead. Now, though, since I've found a list that works, he wants to drop the points to 1,500... so I am back to losing to him again... I guess I'll wait and see though, as a 500 point drop means command point sacrifice or, dropping my most effective units, leaving me bouncing off him again. I really dislike this version of the game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Glad you got a win in, sounds like you had a good deployment strategy and game tactics. His list this time actually seems fairly reasonable. Tank commanders in LRBTs aren't op at all and pask is considerably toned down this edition. Im not sure if holding ones breath for a codex is the best way to get around tough lists. Particularly with what you've suggested. At least he's not taking psyker, conscript, mortar and artillery spam like the top tables at Nova. What missions are you playing? Maelstrom should force him to split up some of his list to gain battlefield objectives which should allow you to pick these units off one by one. Damo1701 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damo1701 Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 Unfortunately, I can't get him to play Maelstrom missions, they screw with his plans too much apparently. I'd love to play Maelstrom missions. Got the standard and Space Marine card decks for it. With my list as it currently is, I have the mobility to get around the table if I need to. Currently, and last night, playing Eternal War, I've started casting up at one end of my Deployment Zone so that everything protects everything else. I do know that he is looking to get some mortar teams, and converting a pair of Basilisks up. If thats what's being uses in tournaments, then Ill tell him straight up that he'll either win before I bother trying to set up, or he needs to stop netlisting. I've made it clear that I have no interest in facing tournament level lists. I get absolutely nothing out of them. It does appear that this incarnation of the game polarises playstyles far more than previous editions have done. Sure, there were dirty combinations for almost every army, but, with the proliferation of Mortal Wound spam coming from the Adeptus Mechanicus codex (Warhammer community) I really do worry about what is coming for the other factions. I'm not ultra-competitive, I want to enjoy my time on the table with the models I've spent ages painting. With changes to both ObSec and first turn announced, it's a bad time to be an elite army instead of a blob-spam army. Am I chasing unicorns here? Trying to compromise what I enjoy about the game so that I can actually get a game in? Especially as we haven't actually played a PowerPoints game yet, because he doesn't like the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claws and Effect Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Said it before, I'll say it again. 8th edition isn't your problem. Your opponent is. - You finally win a game and he wants to drop to 1500 so you can't take the units that won you the game. - He'll only play missions that favor how jis army works best. - He won't play power points. - He's loading his list with stuff that performs well at tournaments, rather than following the actual structure of a Guard Company. From everything you're telling us, ot seems pretty apparently that he's more interested in getting the win than it in making the game fun for both of you. Damo1701 and Gulltramarine 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claws and Effect Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 When my wife and I start playing I'll be watering down my list a bit to be fair. She plays Tyranids with a horde emphasis. My Fire Raptor will be staying on the shelf. I could easily build a list that would obliterate her, but why would I want to spoil her fun like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damo1701 Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 Said it before, I'll say it again. 8th edition isn't your problem. Your opponent is. - You finally win a game and he wants to drop to 1500 so you can't take the units that won you the game. - He'll only play missions that favor how jis army works best. - He won't play power points. - He's loading his list with stuff that performs well at tournaments, rather than following the actual structure of a Guard Company. From everything you're telling us, ot seems pretty apparently that he's more interested in getting the win than it in making the game fun for both of you. I do agree with you, though, the current incarnation of Codex: Space Marines feels very much balanced against what GW did in the last edition, rather than being balanced compared to other armies in this edition. Should so much head scratching be going on when trying to create a fun and balanced list? Should a Guard army resemble a company on the field? Yes! Why don't the rules reflect this? This is where the tournament scene should be forcing changes. Where are the advantages to building an army according to its fluff-based structure? Why is it more advantageous to build lists the way they currently are? Because the rules permit it. I do think we have a 50:50 situation here, where players are taking what they are because the rules allow it. Why were people running battle companies of Space Marines in the previous edition? Because there was a benefit to it. It also brought fluff to the tabletop in a very real way. A Battle Company with support from other areas. I, myself, ran a Talon Strike Force more often than not, because it felt more fluffy to do so, despite the fact I could have run a Battle Company, and did when I had an Imperial Fists army it suited more. Now, instead of giving free units or whatever, for following a fluff-line, how about extra command points? The warp knows we need to find a way to increase what we can bring somehow, but at the same time, it remains balanced with the rest of the setting. How about actual options for running a Guard armoured company? That would have a two-fold effect of driving vehicular sales, showing the true armoured power of the Guard, and prevents Tank Commander Spam. Want an Infantry company? Cool! Bring back platoon mechanics, including supporting Character limitations. Make it possible to build an actual company or regiment depending on game size. So, as you can see, I do hold him somewhat responsible for the choices he makes, though, he does claim that basic Leman Russ tanks, like regular guardsmen are awful, with their BS of 4+ or 5+ for secondary weapons if they move. However, the way I see it, that's what you knew you were getting into when you chose Guard as an army. So, you can't bemoan the stats when the dice don't roll in your favour for a single game. If you want consistent stats, run marines.... (But then we get into the I don't want to run marines because they are boring argument again). The other responsibility lies with the way Games Workshop have written the rules. Certain things are allowed, so they will be taken/spammed until they are controlled. Yes, it is clearer now that I actually have an earned win, that fun is at the bottom of his views for the game, despite the fact we are friends. He is much more interested in the Tournament side of things than the casual side. As an aside, it's not just 40k that this manifests in. So, I think I might knock gaming on the head until I can get to a local club or two, and see what I can come up with, which should be sooner than either the Guard Codex or Chapter Approved. I see what you mean with regards to your wife. I got fed up with facing certain combinations that I decided it was time to Strike from the Shadows with 10 LC vanguard, Shrike, and 5 Tartaros, just to get the best/worst possible Alphastrike that I could physically manage. Kind of drove the point home about certain tactics he favours... Plus, it kept the Ogryns away from my devastators... LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claws and Effect Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Ironically, I'm actually looking into a Guard support detachment alongside my Raven Guard. The catch? I'm doing it as fluffy as possible. It will be Catachans led by Straken. Because he actually worked with Shrike in the Damocles compilation book. I'll be applying a hard limit of 500 points out of 2000 for Catachans. Damo1701 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gulltramarine Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 Sounds like your mate is setting all the terms of your games, tell him to play maelstrom once in a while Damo1701 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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