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Guilliman vs. Mortarion


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#1
DogWelder

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So we know how the fight goes in canon thanks to the "Warzon: Ultramar" section of 8th Edition.

 

During the final battle of the Plague Wars, the Ultramarines attack the last Death Guard Stronghold in Ultramar which is the planet of Iax.

 

Guilliman and Mortarion "fight each other to a standstill amidst the ruins of Iax" (exact quote from the book) when Mortarion decides to "withdraw under the cover of a virus bomb" as the Death Guard pull back to defend the Scourge Stars that had come under threat due to the "War in the Rift".

 

Since Guy Haley is going to do more books following Dark Imperium, how do you guys think the fight between Guilliman and Mortarion should go? Should it be like the one with Magnus where Guilliman is on the back foot until an external source comes to aid him? (Such as the Ynnari coming in with the stolen Hand of Darkness). Or perhaps a more even fight where they are truly matched without any outside interference.

 

Side note: Is one virus bomb enough to destroy a planet? 


Edited by Caius Tadius, 06 July 2017 - 04:10 AM.

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#2
Adeptus

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One virus bomb can indeed render a planet uninhabitable.

#3
Marshal Loss

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You certainly love your Ultramarine topics.

 

Daemon Primarchs seem canonically far in excess of the power of a Primarch. The 'X' factor, however, is the plotsword of the Emperor, to which Guilliman ascribes his victory at the climax of Dark Imperium (edit: although I do not recall it doing anything spectacular against Magnus). While I rolled my eyes at Guilliman wielding it upon his return, here it offers a pleasing symmetry: both Mortarion and Guilliman are using their father's weapon (the Necro-monster and Emperor, respectively).

 

There are other factors that are so far unaccounted for. Ku'gath is supposedly making a plague to bring down a Primarch: obviously it doesn't work, because plot, but we don't know why yet.

 

However, one of the key points to take away from Dark Imperium is that Guilliman should know by now that if he runs in like an airhead to man-mode a Daemon Primarch, he's going to get destroyed. If he's the tactical genius he's built up to be, he should be aiming to force Mortarion to retreat by making the situation untenable for his forces or by involving outside help. If not, he's learned nothing from his stupid decisions on board the Pride of the Emperor.

 

If Guilliman struggled with Magnus, I do not expect him to be able to triumph without outside aid when fighting Mortarion. He's no psyker on the level of Magnus, but god-augmented powers should swing a fight against a non-psyker regardless.


Edited by Marshal Loss, 06 July 2017 - 04:35 AM.

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Can somebody push some damn perspective in me, because right now I'm back to calling the DG the new level of cheese not seen since 7th edition Eldar came out.

And just a FYI, not that I am calling anyone out in particular, but over on some of the other boards they are poking fun at us here on this board for griping about the DG. It only makes me more determined to find a way to field pure SW lists against them.

 


#4
DogWelder

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You certainly love your Ultramarine topics.

 

I was more interested in the fight since its the only loyalist vs. Demon Primarch in the 40k timeline tbh.

 

Daemon Primarchs seem canonically far in excess of the power of a Primarch. The 'X' factor, however, is the plotsword of the Emperor, to which Guilliman ascribes his victory at the climax of Dark Imperium (edit: although I do not recall it doing anything spectacular against Magnus).

 

The Emperor's Sword seems to be even more effective against warp entities it seems.

 

“The Lord of Ultramar lunged at his brother. The burning blade drove in, under the Daemon Primarch’s guard, and sank deep into his chest. Golden flames leapt, and Magnus howled in agony as they chewed hungrily at his flesh.”

 

That and it allowed Guilliman to easily dispatch Qaramas, one of the greater daemons of Nurgle. Since the Emperor is "anathema" to the warp, then perhaps the sword is too in a way.

 


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#5
Gorthaur

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I just hope this thing between the ultramarines and the DG lingers a bit, I think they make for a good pair.


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#6
Marshal Loss

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You certainly love your Ultramarine topics.

 

I was more interested in the fight since its the only loyalist vs. Demon Primarch in the 40k timeline tbh.

 

Ah, of course. The presence of UM/Guilliman again, as always, is pure coincidence. rolleyesclean.gif

Spoiler

 

I did mention the fight in DI.

 

This would be the obvious answer. However, while he credits the sword with his victory in Dark Imperium, it does not guarantee victory without outside aid against Magnus - not even close. One would imagine that a Daemon Primarch is going to be more formidable than a Greater Daemon. And as I also said, having a sword that automatically wins him fights against any Daemon undermines the very lessons taught to Guilliman by Fulgrim when he got royally slapped on the Pride of the Emperor.


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Can somebody push some damn perspective in me, because right now I'm back to calling the DG the new level of cheese not seen since 7th edition Eldar came out.

And just a FYI, not that I am calling anyone out in particular, but over on some of the other boards they are poking fun at us here on this board for griping about the DG. It only makes me more determined to find a way to field pure SW lists against them.

 


#7
DogWelder

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You certainly love your Ultramarine topics.

 

I was more interested in the fight since its the only loyalist vs. Demon Primarch in the 40k timeline tbh.

 

Ah, of course. The presence of UM/Guilliman again, as always, is pure coincidence. rolleyesclean.gif

Spoiler

 

I did mention the fight in DI.

 

This would be the obvious answer. However, while he credits the sword with his victory in Dark Imperium, it does not guarantee victory without outside aid against Magnus - not even close. One would imagine that a Daemon Primarch is going to be more formidable than a Greater Daemon. And as I also said, having a sword that automatically wins him fights against any Daemon undermines the very lessons taught to Guilliman by Fulgrim when he got royally slapped on the Pride of the Emperor.

 

 

Yes, I agree. A more cautious approach would make sense for the character. Very much in line with the strategic mindset they're gunning for in DI.

 

Though personally I put my money the authors having Eldar coming back with the Hand of Darkness and um...sapping Mortarion's powers or something? I know it sounds stupid but you have to admit that is something Black Library would pull.


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#8
Ishagu

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Thing is, Guilliman wasn't completely stomped by Daemon Fulgrim in the battle that led to him being put in stasis, although Fulgrim was definitely superior. You'd argue Fulgrim would have beaten Guilliman even before he was empowered by Chaos. This was long before Guilliman took up the Emperor's sword.

Just how much of a boost Chaos granted the Daemon Primarchs is up for debate. Like all Daemons, their powers will be strained in the physical realm, especially in more stable places without rifts into the warp.

Also, Mortarion isn't as powerful as Magnus in terms of mastery of the warp. He would engage Guilliman in a more conventional duel. I expect Guilliman is a better duelist than Mortarion, and with the Emperor sword in hand the fight is probably very even.

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#9
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How does Guilliman make the Emperor's sword flare up like that? Master of Mankind indicates that it's essentially a psychic fire, with an intricate crystalline web, and you'd need to be a strong psyker to use it.


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#10
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He would engage Guilliman in a more conventional duel. I expect Guilliman is a better duelist than Mortarion, and with the Emperor sword in hand the fight is probably very even.

I'm not so sure about the better duelist thing, for the fact alone that Mortarion had a few thousand years more to train... The emperors sword seems to be his biggest chance in a straight on duel.

 

But then again Guilliman does have some pretty strong plot-armour so who knows.


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#11
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How does Guilliman make the Emperor's sword flare up like that? Master of Mankind indicates that it's essentially a psychic fire, with an intricate crystalline web, and you'd need to be a strong psyker to use it.

 

Its hinted in DI that Guilliman is a latent psyker.


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#12
Ishagu

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Pre Heresy I don't think Mortarion could best Guilliman, in a war or a duel.

Dark Imperium reveals what Mortarion has been up to (and it's certainly not honing his fighting ability) whilst Guilliman has been going around slaying Greater Daemons.

The Emperor's sword is literally powered by the Emperor's own psychic power, but only when wielded by a worthy Warrior.

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#13
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How does Guilliman make the Emperor's sword flare up like that? Master of Mankind indicates that it's essentially a psychic fire, with an intricate crystalline web, and you'd need to be a strong psyker to use it.

 

They don't know. Rob is presented with the sword by the Custodes after his chat with dad, and every time he pulls it out of its scabbard it lights up. Rob knows it hurts daemons, and that its power comes from the Emperor, but he doesn't know how and he won't hand it over to any one else to investigate.


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#14
Marshal Loss

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Thing is, Guilliman wasn't completely stomped by Daemon Fulgrim in the battle that led to him being put in stasis, although Fulgrim was definitely superior. You'd argue Fulgrim would have beaten Guilliman even before he was empowered by Chaos.

 

He literally realised he was going to lose seconds into the fight, gets one good blow in, and then spends a short period of time parrying before being 'killed' after Fulgrim slaughters his bodyguard with impunity. There is no shame in that, given Fulgrim's skills and augmented abilities, but that's a pretty comprehensive stomp by any definition.

 

Getting stomped in this manner is (or should/will be) an important part of his development in Dark Imperium. He isn't just beaten in a duel, he's outmaneuvered and outsmarted because of his temper by Fulgrim. This leads to his 'death' at a time when the Imperium desperately needed him. He failed his father and his people because of his temper, and that's a big deal. It's a comprehensive defeat, and it provides something for Guilliman to learn from.

 

When he fights to a stalemate with Mortarion, there should be lessons drawn from his stomping at the hands of Fulgrim. Haley is a good author and I have faith he'll get it right, even if the main GW studio does not.


Edited by Marshal Loss, 07 July 2017 - 12:25 AM.

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Can somebody push some damn perspective in me, because right now I'm back to calling the DG the new level of cheese not seen since 7th edition Eldar came out.

And just a FYI, not that I am calling anyone out in particular, but over on some of the other boards they are poking fun at us here on this board for griping about the DG. It only makes me more determined to find a way to field pure SW lists against them.

 


#15
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All the way back to Know No Fear we get to see the hot-headed aspect of Roboute. He might be a tactical genius, but he has a temper. And it's something others can exploit, if they can just get under his skin.


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#16
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Pre Heresy I don't think Mortarion could best Guilliman, in a war or a duel.

Dark Imperium reveals what Mortarion has been up to (and it's certainly not honing his fighting ability) whilst Guilliman has been going around slaying Greater Daemons.

The Emperor's sword is literally powered by the Emperor's own psychic power, but only when wielded by a worthy Warrior.

I really think you are letting your bias show for Guilliman there mate yes Rob was better at war due to the fact he was more of a general And statesman compared to Mortarion but there is no way he could easily of bested his brother in a duel, the Reaper had more chance to defeat his upstart brother or at least draw. During the Heresy Mortarion fought the Khan arguably one of the best swordsman out of all the Primarchs even Fulgrim and yet Mortarion fought him on equal ground and it ended up being a tie. So I can easily say with confidence that Mortarion would of easily wiped the floor with Guilliman if he even showed up on Terra or another engagement. Post Heresy it's funny as not only is Guilliman full of plot armour but he has all kinds of shenanigans to deal with the warp in the form of his Eldar BFFs, the silent sisterhood and his daddy's anti warp sword so it's hardly like he will ever fight his brothers in a fair fight anymore I mean even when he said he would fight his brother Fulgrim "fair" one on one he still was the one to break his word calling his warriors to his rescue as soon as he realised he had no hope of killing his brother or surviving :D there is also the fact GW can't kill Rob since he basically is the Emperor now so is the main character in the new setting so whatever fight he is in will never be a major loss always a stalemate

Edited by Plaguecaster, 07 July 2017 - 03:36 AM.

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#17
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I think this is an interesting topic.

I would say that this isn't the first time there's been a duel since his awakening. The fight with Magnus seemed massive. I thought he had the sword before seeing the Emperor. I guess not.

But Magnus was all over him but the SOS made it a very different fight and then the was the Eldar, so perhaps a bad example of a 'duel'.


All the way back to Know No Fear we get to see the hot-headed aspect of Roboute. He might be a tactical genius, but he has a temper. And it's something others can exploit, if they can just get under his skin.


He is a changed Primarch. It's worth noting he reflects on those moments, especially against Fulgrim.

#18
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One virus bomb can indeed render a planet uninhabitable.

 

Really? Because they used several on Isstvan 5 to be effective. Not to mention the ones on Armageddon only did localized damage.

 

Still, I wouldn't really mind if Iax got wiped out. That planet made zero sense to me. Constant plains of crops with no trees is an affront to basic agricultural science. 


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#19
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On Isstvan, they needed it to kill marines hidden inside bunkers, and deep in underground complexes, through their sealed armor, required a concentration of the stuff. On something like a Hive World, the mass of people allow the virus plenty of bio-mass to spread from, would be my guess. It eats everything very very fast, so if it can't find new things to infect, it burns itself out, as intended. Then you follow it up with some heat sources, and boom, total atmospheric fireball.

 

Anyway, Gulliman was never even close to the best fighter, and becoming a Daemon Primarch, while it doesn't appear that its anything approaching an order of magnitude increase, does give the Daemon certain advantages beyond just the immortality. A Daemon Primarch isn't much different than a Greater Daemon, and Primarchs both win and lose fights against those. Alone, Guilliman should get his giant tin-can butt kicked, Emps sword or no. But Gman backed up by some of his allies, the list of which seems to keep getting longer and longer, a stalemate seems perfectly reasonable.

 

Also, I thought it was pretty much accepted by this point that all of the Primarchs are psykers to some degree or other. Corax and Curze both have their sneaky powers/precognition, the Khan can kill psychic manifestations on Prospero as of Scars, Russ let loose a howl that was psychically empowered, and walked through Magnus' power, also known as stuff that can turn a titan inside out slag, Sanguinius is a precog and when he gets angry, he manifests a literal halo of burning light, etc. Their all to a greater or lesser extent psychic, their all made of both warp-craft and genetics.


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#20
The_son_of_Dorn

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Probably won't be a solid one on one. Marines will get involved, the GK'S will show up, the Inquisition, the guard, the tau, then nids, hell even tzeentch might make a physical body and turn up with some lemonade.

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#21
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Why would you even expect that RG would have a chance against Mortarion,Fulgrim or Magnus. He could maybe hang on with Pertruabo but the others outclassed him in fighting even before they became daemon primarchs let alone at present. From the loyalist side I could see Khan,Konrad,Russ or the Lion being able to go toe to toe with daemon primarchs but RG and Dorn do not stand a chance.



#22
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Erm, Guilliman was described as being one of the better ones in a fight.

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#23
the jeske

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Just to point it out. Mortman was beaten by a human, sure an augumented one, but still a human, to a point where the said human had enough time to write "draigo wuz 'ere" on his heart. Am a chaos player, but lets face it Mortman sole schtick is jobing to other dudes.


"Felix wondered how Calgar might feel about the primach's unilateral altering of the Codex Astartes. The captain could not help but feel that, in his drive for victory and efficiency, Guilliman had been careless with the feelings of his existing sons. Increasingly, Guilliman looked to the Primaris Space Marines as his first solution. He made no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older space marines were numbered."


#24
helterskelter

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Mortarion Endures. That's his deal, he can take a fusilade from a bolt cannon to the chest, he duelled with the Khan, who we are lead to believe is one of the quickest swordsmen of the primarchs, and kept his ground.
Yes draigo got him, bit grey knights fight demons so yeah.
Guilliman took a beating from a warp juiced Kor Phaeron, though seeing as how Kor is an enhanced man, the juice probably only took him up to thunder warrior levels.
Guilliman Also fought Angron and Curze. Both of which fights he probably would have died in had fate not intervened.

Mortarion in Theory should have beasted Guilliman in 30k, 40k given statuses and armaments it's unfortunately Authors/GW's choice. Is mortarion capable of killing RG? Yes he is. The Emperors sword however munches demons.
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#25
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guilliman does not have a good record in single combat. he lost to kor phaeron until evil moustache twirling, fought lorgar to a standstill (while he was distracted managing the ruinstorm) and would have been killed by angron if it wasn't for lorgar. he lost to curze, 1v2. daemon primarch fulgrim kills him. daemon primarch magnus would have killed him if not for sisters of silence arriving to help.  if the old lore is true, he kills alpharius, although whether it is omegon or a fake we will have to wait till they arrive at it, or if it even happens anymore.

 

so no, hes not one of the better ones in a fight. but hes a primarch, which means hes good anyway, but his talents always lay in other fields. if anybody can endure the power of the emperors sword, its morty


Edited by dansupvi, 07 July 2017 - 10:26 PM.

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