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Guilliman vs. Mortarion


DogWelder

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That loss to Kor Phaeron that everyone brings up involved Kor using the powers of Chaos to blast Guilliman with a laser into a wall multiple times. This was done during a chaotic ritual that thinned the Veil between realities at the Calth atrocity. Not really something that can be used to make a point.

 

If a child shoots a bodybuilder with a Gun, did that child overpower the bodybuilder? Or did it simply use a powerful tool?

 

I've read the HH books. He battles Lorgar and Angron, and although he's overpowered in that battle he comes out looking strong.

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considering lorgar caves part of his head in with his maul, not sure looking good is the way to go. theres your mark of calth. and against angron, he only survives because of lorgar. 

 

and yes, ishagu, the powers of chaos. imagine who might have access to certain chaos powers. i dont know, say, a daemon primarch? an immortal being with the powers of a daemon merged with the abilities of a primarch. 

 

and what a silly reference. that doesnt matter at all. a tool is a tool, just like the emperors sword is a tool. kor phaeron wasn't even a proper astartes. 

 

for somebody you describe as 'being one of the better ones in a fight', he wins suspiciously few fights 

Edited by dansupvi
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guilliman should return his sword then. but hey, after the last few fights, i think he needs something to give him a chance. :smile.: daemonic power is a tool, just like anything else is a tool - except it comes with a price. a very high price. the results speak for themselves tho, other than the eternal damnation and all that

 

unfortunately for you, fights are not won based on who has the moral high ground

Edited by dansupvi
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Well, one is a guy who uses a sword.

 

The other is a slave to a dark power who literally wouldn't have the strength to move without it.

 

The Daemon Primarchs are strong no doubt, they are probably greater Daemons in strength but with a more potent intellect. Looking forward to seeing more of them.

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a sword that quite probably has power that is not his own. so hey, you think they sell their souls to dark powers for...a more potent intellect? no. i mean theres bias, and then theres that level of bias. primarchs are basically greater daemon strength, and a daemon primarch is elevated higher than greater daemons in the eyes of their patron. mortarion, while he is a pawn, is still basically the favourite pet of nurgle, who has no doubt lavished powers on him. the same as fulgrim, magnus etc. 

 

it does come with downsides of course, but the immense power of the daemon primarchs shouldnt be underestimated. magnus taking on the world at fenris, angron murdering a company of GK terminators, the guys that specialise in killing him, fulgrim decimating guilliman and his bodyguard simultaneously...well, so far, guilliman is 0-2 against daemon primarchs, not taking into account sisters of silence, and he had his sword against magnus. i too look forward to seeing more daemon primarchs

 

all this bias annoys me for heavens sake. im an ultramarine 40k player and i love guilliman, but not as a fighter. he's a thinker, and one of the greatest tacticians in the galaxy. doesnt make him one of his strongest brothers in a brawl. i want to see guilliman outthink mortarion and force him to back off, not to cheese him down with the power of his sword. but thats me. put mortarion in a position where he has to choose between killing guilliman or losing his legion. 

 

edit: forgot to add, guilliman would also have died to lorgar had lorgar not been so selfless :smile.:

Edited by dansupvi
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My prediction:

 

-They fight and Mortarion starts gaining the upper hand

 

-Suddenly Yvraine and the Ynnari show up with the Hand of Darkness (which they stole from the Garden of Nurgle in the audio dramas).

 

-Mortarion becomes weakened as the Hand of Darkness is the source of his power (don't ask) and begins to lose.

 

_Mortarion retreats under the cover of a virus bomb as per canon.


a sword that quite probably has power that is not his own. so hey, you think they sell their souls to dark powers for...a more potent intellect? no. i mean theres bias, and then theres that level of bias. primarchs are basically greater daemon strength, and a daemon primarch is elevated higher than greater daemons in the eyes of their patron. mortarion, while he is a pawn, is still basically the favourite pet of nurgle, who has no doubt lavished powers on him. the same as fulgrim, magnus etc. 

 

it does come with downsides of course, but the immense power of the daemon primarchs shouldnt be underestimated. magnus taking on the world at fenris, angron murdering a company of GK terminators, the guys that specialise in killing him, fulgrim decimating guilliman and his bodyguard simultaneously...well, so far, guilliman is 0-2 against daemon primarchs, not taking into account sisters of silence, and he had his sword against magnus. i too look forward to seeing more daemon primarchs

 

all this bias annoys me for heavens sake. im an ultramarine 40k player and i love guilliman, but not as a fighter. he's a thinker, and one of the greatest tacticians in the galaxy. doesnt make him one of his strongest brothers in a brawl. i want to see guilliman outthink mortarion and force him to back off, not to cheese him down with the power of his sword. but thats me. put mortarion in a position where he has to choose between killing guilliman or losing his legion. 

 

edit: forgot to add, guilliman would also have died to lorgar had lorgar not been so selfless :smile.:

 

Didn't Guilliman win against Magnus? He basically skewered him with the Emperor's sword and trapped him in a section of the webway with the help of the Eldar Harlequins.

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he gets a good blow in and then magnus is trapped off by the eldar. the book itself even mentions that the eldar only has a single moment to alter fate, shutting magnus off, so it's not like guilliman had won the fight with that blow. and needing so much aid for the victory (sisters of silence were shooting and hitting magnus, eldar cutting magnus off before he could retaliate) simply affirms the comparative strength of a daemon primarch. 

 

that aside, your prediction sounds about right to me, although id still rather a victory where guilliman uses his brain rather than some stupid plot device 

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of course, and im not saying that lorgar is a better fighter than guilliman, but lorgar has his psychic powers to swing things in his favour. im just illustrating the point that i dont see guilliman as a formidable fighter among the primarchs, and i think gw trying to make him a beatstick like this undermines his important qualities. people are letting their love of guilliman get in the way of their judgement when it comes to him taking on d-primarchs. we've already seen him comprehensively outmanoeuvre mortarion + typhus + ku'gath in terms of the wider campaign anyway... i dont know why people dont want the daemon primarchs to be this huge, incredibly powerful baddies. it makes the struggle against them, and any victories we get, far more important and impressive. 

Edited by dansupvi
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of course, and im not saying that lorgar is a better fighter than guilliman, but lorgar has his psychic powers to swing things in his favour. im just illustrating the point that i dont see guilliman as a formidable fighter among the primarchs, and i think gw trying to make him a beatstick like this undermines his important qualities. people are letting their love of guilliman get in the way of their judgement when it comes to him taking on d-primarchs. we've already seen him comprehensively outmanoeuvre mortarion + typhus + ku'gath in terms of the wider campaign anyway... i dont know why people dont want the daemon primarchs to be this huge, incredibly powerful baddies. it makes the struggle against them, and any victories we get, far more important and impressive. 

 

Of course I want his strategic abilities to be the focus but I feel his fighting abilities shouldn't be downplayed either. Regardless of support/external factors, Guilliman did beat Magnus and win the Battle of Luna. He also beat Skarbrand and took out a greater daemon of Nurgle with minimal effort. He's also due to beat another greater daemon that is Ku'gaths second in command later during the Plague Wars. 

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of course you don't. he did not 'beat' magnus, just as magnus didn't 'beat' him (although he would have), the fight was brought to a premature close by the eldar. thats like saying that lorgar beat corax on isstvan V because he was the last man standing after somebody intervened in his favour. strong parallels there. if that is a victory in your books...great. and yes, he beat greater daemons, but all primarchs can and have done that regularly. lorgar did it, the khan did it, etc. 

 

hes a good fighter but definitely not exceptional by primarch standards, as all of his duels so far have demonstrated, and so far the two daemon primarchs he has fought have been superior to him. that should not be up for debate. this notion that daemon primarchs are not more powerful is strange and rooted in bias, as all available examples demonstrate their power. that makes guillimans victory better, not worse, so long as he isnt losing a brawl before a magical plot device turns up and saves the day. 

 

anyway this discussion is circular

Edited by dansupvi
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Well it also has to do a lot with the fact that Chaos characters are generaly there to job to imperials. I understand it from the narrative perspective. But after 20-30 years it is kind of hard to achive a feeling of suspense in a chaos vs imperial important dude duel/battle/war/galactic scale conflict. 

Borrowed power, an illusion for slaves.

The how never matter, as long as you win. It only matters if you lose.

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hes a good fighter but definitely not exceptional by primarch standards, as all of his duels so far have demonstrated, and so far the two daemon primarchs he has fought have been superior to him. that should not be up for debate. this notion that daemon primarchs are not more powerful is strange and rooted in bias, as all available examples demonstrate their power. that makes guillimans victory better, not worse, so long as he isnt losing a brawl before a magical plot device turns up and saves the day. 

 

 

I completely agree. I've always liked the fact that in the GW games, humanity was outclassed. It's opponents had the better weapons, the more powerful beings, literal gods backing them up. It made the victories of humanity that much more heroic, the last stands that much more noble.

 

When Rob goes up against a Daemon Primarch, i want him to be facing a superior opponent, one he cannot just bash down with a sword his dad gave him. The fight against Fulgrim was perfect in this regards, because he was so outclassed. He was always going to lose, but by heck did he go out fighting. Hurting a Daemon Primarch despite the odds is a heroic achievement. Thumping them with a magic sword and winning without effort doesn't raise Rob's standing, it diminishes it.

 

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There is another possibility on how this fight will go since we are talking about disappointing and inconclusive conflict between larger than life characters who mean a lot to their respective fans:

 

"Martha..."

Edited by Caius Tadius
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It's not rooted in bias. Since the 3rd edition index astartes it has been more or less understood that while Guilliman certainly fell to Fulgrim, no one had seen the Phoenician since, which seems to indicate quite strongly that Guilliman must've dealt him a serious banishing.

I have no problem with Guilliman losing, but to claim that this lopsided victory by Fulgrim is completely consistent with established lore is a head scratcher, BL publications notwithstanding. In these scenarios Guillimans vulnerability was a narrative necessity, not a statement on how badass a primarch can be.

 

Man, I wish Legs was here to back me up.

Edited by karden00
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It's not rooted in bias. Since the 3rd edition index astartes it has been more or less understood that while Guilliman certainly fell to Fulgrim, no one had seen the Phoenician since, which seems to indicate quite strongly that Guilliman must've dealt him a serious banishing.

I have no problem with Guilliman losing, but to claim that this lopsided victory by Fulgrim is completely consistent with established lore is a head scratcher, BL publications notwithstanding. In these scenarios Guillimans vulnerability was a narrative necessity, not a statement on how badass a primarch can be.

 

Man, I wish Legs was here to back me up.

 

here to quote a 20 year source when we have a brand new one saying what actually happened...

 

now we have seen what happens, so we know that Guilliman does not put Fulgrim down. Fulgrim does beat him, and does it with ease.  that doesn't contradict Fulgrim not being seen since at all. in the old lore, it was a mystery what happened: part of that mystery is now gone. 

 

whether you like it or not, it is what it is. aspects of the fight have been retconned, but the strength of daemon primarchs has never been in doubt. 

 

the bias I am referring to is people like yourself saying that daemon primarchs are not stronger than regular primarchs. that comes from a desire for your primarchs to be able to compete on an equal playing field, not because there is any evidence to back up your claims. what is the point of selling your soul if not for power? do plague marines not have an advantage over normal chaos marines? so why would daemon mortarion not have gifts of his own making him more powerful than his primarch incarnation? and angron? and lorgar? etc. the fights with magnus and fulgrim speak for themselves. 

 

guilliman is back. he has learned from the past, he has a new kickass sword, he is the lord commander of the imperium and humanity's new hope. but that doesn't mean he has to be equal in terms of martial strength to every bad guy in the setting. his brothers sold their souls and betrayed everything they stood for in order to obtain power, but he did not, and he will win his battles in other ways. learn to look on the bright side. 

Edited by dansupvi
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But that's always been THE plot device for marines. They aren't as tough as necrons, as numerous as tyranids, as fast as eldar or as well armed as tau, and they don't have all the fancy pants powers and things that chaos does but they win through sheer will and determination. That is their defining characteristic. And in the 40k universe (as in most fictional settijgs) it generally trumps anything your enemy can bring to the table. Faith and determination beats strength/magic/skill or any combination of things your average bad guy has.

 

Mortarion is 'stronger' because he sold his soul but he is also weakened by that exchange and severely diminished. The Death Guard are a great example as they were all but defined by their stoic toughness and rigid discipline. But by breaking their oaths they themselves proved there was nothing unbreakable about them. Mortarion is that writ larger and grander but still at his core he is weak and inconstant.

 

Also he has, "Draigo was here," carved on his chest I think? I'm sure Guilliman is a better fighter than Draigo?

Edited by utilityzero
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I think Chaos have more plot devices than the loyalists :-P

 

How many times have we heard: "and suddenly the population of planet x that has stood it's ground for 10k years in sector y has succumbed to madness and rebelled against the Imperium"

 

And what about the Blackstone fortress plot device that destroyed Cadia when Abaddon's ground forcess and fleet were being pushed back? You remember that thing the Phalanx blew up? Well it turns out it's all part of the plan and all the various chunks will fly into the planet :-P

Edited by Ishagu
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If a child shoots a bodybuilder with a Gun, did that child overpower the bodybuilder? Or did it simply use a powerful tool?

 

 

and what a silly reference. that doesnt matter at all. a tool is a tool, just like the emperors sword is a tool. kor phaeron wasn't even a proper astartes.

 

 

Now now, Ishagu has a perfect reference.

 

"If a child (RG) shoots (stabs) a bodybuilder (Magnus/Morti/Great Daemons/ etc etc.) with a gun (The Emperors sword), did that child (RG) overpower the bodybuilder (Magnus/Morti)?

 

 

So thank you Ishagu for using the perfect reference in this situation.

 

 

Guilliman had his strengths, he was a great strategist and a even better governer, but he is not the best or the one of the best in everything. He has weakness's just like every other primarch. I don't think he was the worst fighter, but he wasn't one of the best. Being a good swordmen does not mean your are good in combat. Dueling is much different than actual combat. It's like comparing a competition shooter to a military marksmen. Yes they use the same general backgrounds, but one has perfect setup and one has the chaos of combat. A military marksmen merely needs to hit his target to nuetralize it, doesn't matter where and that target is easilly a 8 inch circle, but it is chaotic when he does so. A competition shooter is shooting mm's apart, but with perfect conditition. A great miltiary marksmen may not be a great competition shooter and vice versa.

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Daemon Primarchs should be better than their non Roided brothers, just like a Daemon Prince is better than a normal Marine. 

 

To be fair, normal Marines have taken out Demon princes before. Didn't Calgar crush An'ggrath's skull between his gauntlets during their fight?

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