Guilliman vs. Mortarion

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

Daemon Primarchs should be better than their non Roided brothers, just like a Daemon Prince is better than a normal Marine.

To be fair, normal Marines have taken out Demon princes before. Didn't Calgar crush An'ggrath's skull between his gauntlets during their fight?

Well naturally Calgar did, he IS an Ultramarine. I hear they can bend time and space and fart rainbows.

[DogWelder]

 

 

Daemon Primarchs should be better than their non Roided brothers, just like a Daemon Prince is better than a normal Marine.

To be fair, normal Marines have taken out Demon princes before. Didn't Calgar crush An'ggrath's skull between his gauntlets during their fight?

Well naturally Calgar did, he IS an Ultramarine. I hear they can bend time and space and fart rainbows.

 

 

Tankred (the Black Templars Dreadnought) also took out a demon prince if we are talking about stupendous feats here.

[Blindhamster]

Dante cleaved Skarbrand in two - Skarbrand is more powerful than most daemon princes..

I think a lot of factors go into every fight:

• Martial Skill
• Weapons
• Armour
• Knowledge of the opponent
• location of fight
• what you are fighting for
• who is there
• Special powers/abilities.

 

So... (and this is just opinion)

• Martial Skill - I honestly don't rate Mortarion super high, he's never been specifically called out for being a skilled warrior, and his rules in HH dont make him a stand out warrior either (basing that on a combo of WS/I/A), that being said, Guilliman hasn't really been shown as a particularly exemplary warrior through the novels either. So I think for this it's pretty close 
• Weapons - Guilliman has the sword of the emperor, I think this is probably hands down in Guillimans favour on this point. Silence is fancy, but its no sword of the Emperor.
• Armour - I don't recall Mortarions Armour being particularly special, certainly isnt in the HH game. Nor was Guillimans till he got the Armour of Fate, which appears to be rather special in helping him stay alive and keep fighting.
• Knowledge of the Opponent - I imagine Mortarion maybe has the upper hand here, he hasnt spent 10k years asleep.
• Location of the fight - who knows? I could see Mortarion having this too if its in a plague filled place.
• What are you fighting for - I think Guilliman probably has more conviction, just a personal feeling, but to me Mortarion has always been portrayed as more hypocritical and often unsure of his choices. Guilliman commits (and admittedly has his own level of melancholy in Dark Imperium)
• Who is there - Basically, if the sisters of silence are there, it'll shut down a lot of Mortarions power, just like they did with Magnus.
• Special Powers - Obviously Morty wins here, he can fly, uses sorcery, was already unnaturally resilient which no doubt has been enhanced by his daemonhood

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Im hoping for a win on morts part. Not to spite gman but mort has been very badly handled in the past fluff wise.

 

I'd hope for maybe an unseen twist. A scnenario which maybe forces them to "ally". Although what kind of enemy would present that kind of oppertunity and if the imperials could stand the smell of the DG is beyond me.

[DogWelder]

 

Dante cleaved Skarbrand in two - Skarbrand is more powerful than most daemon princes..

 

I think a lot of factors go into every fight:

• Martial Skill
• Weapons
• Armour
• Knowledge of the opponent
• location of fight
• what you are fighting for
• who is there
• Special powers/abilities.

 

So... (and this is just opinion)

• Martial Skill - I honestly don't rate Mortarion super high, he's never been specifically called out for being a skilled warrior, and his rules in HH dont make him a stand out warrior either (basing that on a combo of WS/I/A), that being said, Guilliman hasn't really been shown as a particularly exemplary warrior through the novels either. So I think for this it's pretty close 
• Weapons - Guilliman has the sword of the emperor, I think this is probably hands down in Guillimans favour on this point. Silence is fancy, but its no sword of the Emperor.
• Armour - I don't recall Mortarions Armour being particularly special, certainly isnt in the HH game. Nor was Guillimans till he got the Armour of Fate, which appears to be rather special in helping him stay alive and keep fighting.
• Knowledge of the Opponent - I imagine Mortarion maybe has the upper hand here, he hasnt spent 10k years asleep.
• Location of the fight - who knows? I could see Mortarion having this too if its in a plague filled place.
• What are you fighting for - I think Guilliman probably has more conviction, just a personal feeling, but to me Mortarion has always been portrayed as more hypocritical and often unsure of his choices. Guilliman commits (and admittedly has his own level of melancholy in Dark Imperium)
• Who is there - Basically, if the sisters of silence are there, it'll shut down a lot of Mortarions power, just like they did with Magnus.
• Special Powers - Obviously Morty wins here, he can fly, uses sorcery, was already unnaturally resilient which no doubt has been enhanced by his daemonhood

 

 

I don't think he needs the armor to keep him alive. In Dark Imperium, he's in robes and a grey bodyglove during his free time in his personal chambers aboard the Maccrage's Honour.

[bolvar]

 

 

 

Daemon Primarchs should be better than their non Roided brothers, just like a Daemon Prince is better than a normal Marine.

To be fair, normal Marines have taken out Demon princes before. Didn't Calgar crush An'ggrath's skull between his gauntlets during their fight?

Well naturally Calgar did, he IS an Ultramarine. I hear they can bend time and space and fart rainbows.

 

 

Tankred (the Black Templars Dreadnought) also took out a demon prince if we are talking about stupendous feats here.

 

 

High Marshal Helbretch killed a daemon prince with a :cussing knife when he was an initiate so...

[Arkangilos]

You know why we have examples of people who have? Because it isn't the norm :p

[DogWelder]

You know why we have examples of people who have? Because it isn't the norm

 

True but I think every major loyalist SM character has a Demon Prince kill or two under his belt.

 

Special distinction for Uriel Ventris and Calgar who not only banished the Demon Prince Mkar but permanently killed him as well (wiped out Mkar's warp essence from existence) using a Shard of Erebus.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Caius Tadius

[Blindhamster]

 

 

Dante cleaved Skarbrand in two - Skarbrand is more powerful than most daemon princes..

 

I think a lot of factors go into every fight:

• Martial Skill
• Weapons
• Armour
• Knowledge of the opponent
• location of fight
• what you are fighting for
• who is there
• Special powers/abilities.

 

So... (and this is just opinion)

• Martial Skill - I honestly don't rate Mortarion super high, he's never been specifically called out for being a skilled warrior, and his rules in HH dont make him a stand out warrior either (basing that on a combo of WS/I/A), that being said, Guilliman hasn't really been shown as a particularly exemplary warrior through the novels either. So I think for this it's pretty close 
• Weapons - Guilliman has the sword of the emperor, I think this is probably hands down in Guillimans favour on this point. Silence is fancy, but its no sword of the Emperor.
• Armour - I don't recall Mortarions Armour being particularly special, certainly isnt in the HH game. Nor was Guillimans till he got the Armour of Fate, which appears to be rather special in helping him stay alive and keep fighting.
• Knowledge of the Opponent - I imagine Mortarion maybe has the upper hand here, he hasnt spent 10k years asleep.
• Location of the fight - who knows? I could see Mortarion having this too if its in a plague filled place.
• What are you fighting for - I think Guilliman probably has more conviction, just a personal feeling, but to me Mortarion has always been portrayed as more hypocritical and often unsure of his choices. Guilliman commits (and admittedly has his own level of melancholy in Dark Imperium)
• Who is there - Basically, if the sisters of silence are there, it'll shut down a lot of Mortarions power, just like they did with Magnus.
• Special Powers - Obviously Morty wins here, he can fly, uses sorcery, was already unnaturally resilient which no doubt has been enhanced by his daemonhood

 

 

I don't think he needs the armor to keep him alive. In Dark Imperium, he's in robes and a grey bodyglove during his free time in his personal chambers aboard the Maccrage's Honour.

 

I didnt say he needs it to stay alive, i said it helps keep him alive - which is EXACTLY what its rules do - allowing him to get back after 'dying'

[Lucerne]

It's not rooted in bias. Since the 3rd edition index astartes it has been more or less understood that while Guilliman certainly fell to Fulgrim, no one had seen the Phoenician since, which seems to indicate quite strongly that Guilliman must've dealt him a serious banishing.

I have no problem with Guilliman losing, but to claim that this lopsided victory by Fulgrim is completely consistent with established lore is a head scratcher, BL publications notwithstanding. In these scenarios Guillimans vulnerability was a narrative necessity, not a statement on how badass a primarch can be.

 

Man, I wish Legs was here to back me up.

...You do realize the real lore had Fulgrim flat out slit his throat and basically leave, right? Guiliman was always a failed Primarch who got himself killed by a better warrior.

[karden00]

Son, you can't troll a troll that easily.

[Prot]

Please watch the trolling. I understand everyone has their favourites but that's no excuse fir the trolling.

[Lord Marshal]

I think Chaos have more plot devices than the loyalists :-P

 

How many times have we heard: "and suddenly the population of planet x that has stood it's ground for 10k years in sector y has succumbed to madness and rebelled against the Imperium"

 

And what about the Blackstone fortress plot device that destroyed Cadia when Abaddon's ground forcess and fleet were being pushed back? You remember that thing the Phalanx blew up? Well it turns out it's all part of the plan and all the various chunks will fly into the planet :-P

 

Those planets are almost always inconsequential.

 

Cadia is pretty much the only planet Chaos have LOLPLOTDEVICED to a victory in recent (real world) history that actually matters and will be referenced ever again. Even Fenris they just ended up corrupting badly (but not to unrecoverable levels) because GW didn't want to shake up the status quo too hard and was yet another case of "Muwahaha losing the battle was part of my plan!" from the Chaos leader. The 'Dark Imperium' itself has proven pretty inconsequential thus far because about the only word with any real grounding in the lore that's been lost to it is Mordia and even that is only if you're an Imperial Guard player who gives a damn. 

 

The Warzone: Ultramar stuff never had any sense of real drama or suspense to it because everybody, from the most diehard Ultramarine and Chaos fanboys, knew that nothing would happen because it's Robby's domain. Since apparently Morty is getting his own 'Dark Imperium trilogy' book we might actually see them bleed a bit, but then I wouldn't be surprised if it amounts to him killing a Successor Chapter Master or two at best. Oh and plenty of Ultramar Auxilia.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Lord Marshal

[Volt]

Just to point it out. Mortman was beaten by a human, sure an augumented one, but still a human, to a point where the said human had enough time to write "draigo wuz 'ere" on his heart. Am a chaos player, but lets face it Mortman sole schtick is jobing to other dudes.

Mortarion wasn't beaten in a fight. Draigo banished him using his daemon-name and otherwise would have been swatted like a gnat.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

 

I think Chaos have more plot devices than the loyalists :-P

 

How many times have we heard: "and suddenly the population of planet x that has stood it's ground for 10k years in sector y has succumbed to madness and rebelled against the Imperium"

 

And what about the Blackstone fortress plot device that destroyed Cadia when Abaddon's ground forcess and fleet were being pushed back? You remember that thing the Phalanx blew up? Well it turns out it's all part of the plan and all the various chunks will fly into the planet :-P

 

Those planets are almost always inconsequential.

 

Cadia is pretty much the only planet Chaos have LOLPLOTDEVICED to a victory in recent (real world) history that actually matters and will be referenced ever again. Even Fenris they just ended up corrupting badly (but not to unrecoverable levels) because GW didn't want to shake up the status quo too hard and was yet another case of "Muwahaha losing the battle was part of my plan!" from the Chaos leader. The 'Dark Imperium' itself has proven pretty inconsequential thus far because about the only word with any real grounding in the lore that's been lost to it is Mordia and even that is only if you're an Imperial Guard player who gives a damn. 

 

The Warzone: Ultramar stuff never had any sense of real drama or suspense to it because everybody, from the most diehard Ultramarine and Chaos fanboys, knew that nothing would happen because it's Robby's domain. Since apparently Morty is getting his own 'Dark Imperium trilogy' book we might actually see them bleed a bit, but then I wouldn't be surprised if it amounts to him killing a Successor Chapter Master or two at best. Oh and plenty of Ultramar Auxilia.

 

If they're lucky, they might even get to wipe a lesser Successor Chapter! Before they get rebuilt with Primaris Marines, that is.

[DogWelder]

 

 

I think Chaos have more plot devices than the loyalists :-P

 

How many times have we heard: "and suddenly the population of planet x that has stood it's ground for 10k years in sector y has succumbed to madness and rebelled against the Imperium"

 

And what about the Blackstone fortress plot device that destroyed Cadia when Abaddon's ground forcess and fleet were being pushed back? You remember that thing the Phalanx blew up? Well it turns out it's all part of the plan and all the various chunks will fly into the planet :-P

 

Those planets are almost always inconsequential.

 

Cadia is pretty much the only planet Chaos have LOLPLOTDEVICED to a victory in recent (real world) history that actually matters and will be referenced ever again. Even Fenris they just ended up corrupting badly (but not to unrecoverable levels) because GW didn't want to shake up the status quo too hard and was yet another case of "Muwahaha losing the battle was part of my plan!" from the Chaos leader. The 'Dark Imperium' itself has proven pretty inconsequential thus far because about the only word with any real grounding in the lore that's been lost to it is Mordia and even that is only if you're an Imperial Guard player who gives a damn. 

 

The Warzone: Ultramar stuff never had any sense of real drama or suspense to it because everybody, from the most diehard Ultramarine and Chaos fanboys, knew that nothing would happen because it's Robby's domain. Since apparently Morty is getting his own 'Dark Imperium trilogy' book we might actually see them bleed a bit, but then I wouldn't be surprised if it amounts to him killing a Successor Chapter Master or two at best. Oh and plenty of Ultramar Auxilia.

 

If they're lucky, they might even get to wipe a lesser Successor Chapter! Before they get rebuilt with Primaris Marines, that is.

 

 

You joke but this is exactly what happened with the Black Consuls lol.

 

One of the members of Erebus' Inner Circle within the Word Bearers is some guy who got there by "wiping out" the Black Consuls at Goddeth Hive. It's talked about like a huge event in Word Bearer history.

 

From the glimpses we've seen from the new Space Marine codex, it seems the Black Consuls have been reinforced and rebuilt with Primaris Marines.

[Demigod]

And when was the last time the Imperium has managed to wipe out anything Chaos related? Every Daemon that gets banished for a "thousand years " just gets back with the new book. Every time there is anyone in peril of getting killed ,the gods just get him the hell out of there. Up until recently the only characters Chaos had ever lost were Conrad and Sevatarion, while the only remaining loyalist character was Bjorn.

 

I would like to see if Chaos players would be pleased with a reversal of roles where Chaos gets to defend their newfound empire because of the warp storm for the next 10-20 years but they get to lose 99.9% of all characters. While the Imperium never gets to take anything significant back but gets all characters back. Also Khârn gets to die to Tau in close combat because the Tau are really smart and thought of a new tactic called "The ambush". Truly revolutionary.

 

Also the Mordians are not lost they are just where they like to be,they can now advance against the enemy in all directions.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Demigod

[DuskRaider]

In the backstory, Mortarion is a warrior Primarch. He's supposed to be quite powerful according to other Primarchs in a discussion during the Ullanor Crusade (as was seen in the Khan's book). In 30K tabletop games he holds his own against most Primarchs, but his shtick (and that of the Legion itself) is to endure. He's impossible to kill without a stronger Primarch or a Titan, and even then that takes more than the allotted 6 rounds. Fluffwise, Pre-Heresy he probably would have wiped the floor with Guilliman. Now as a Daemon Primarch, I really don't see it as a fair fight whatsoever unless Guilliman knows his true name (the one the Emperor himself gave him, which is how Draigo banished him). There's going to be some major plot armour / handwavium / Mary Sue antics for Guilliman (who I believe is slowly deteriorating anyhow, yes?) to defeat a Daemon Primarch one v one in combat. That's not a jab at Robby, it's just common sense.

[DogWelder]

In the backstory, Mortarion is a warrior Primarch. He's supposed to be quite powerful according to other Primarchs in a discussion during the Ullanor Crusade (as was seen in the Khan's book). In 30K tabletop games he holds his own against most Primarchs, but his shtick (and that of the Legion itself) is to endure. He's impossible to kill without a stronger Primarch or a Titan, and even then that takes more than the allotted 6 rounds. Fluffwise, Pre-Heresy he probably would have wiped the floor with Guilliman. Now as a Daemon Primarch, I really don't see it as a fair fight whatsoever unless Guilliman knows his true name (the one the Emperor himself gave him, which is how Draigo banished him). There's going to be some major plot armour / handwavium / Mary Sue antics for Guilliman (who I believe is slowly deteriorating anyhow, yes?) to defeat a Daemon Primarch one v one in combat. That's not a jab at Robby, it's just common sense.

 

Guilliman isn't slowly deteriorating though. His facial features show slight signs of age. For example his hair thinned a bit and he has some lines on his face but otherwise he seems in regular condition. 

 

In fact, he may be more powerful than his 30k self in Dark Imperium. Its hinted he is slowly beginning to unlock some kind of latent psychic potential. 

[DuskRaider]

I thought that was the point of his armour, to keep him alive in the fluff. I'll admit I'm not up on it, but wasn't the point of the Ynnari intervention along with Cawl making the new armour to keep him functioning? I thought he was still succumbing to the anathame even now. In any case, I see him as obviously a tactician and politician before a warrior (obviously since he's a Primarch he's still a warrior, though), while Mortarion is a warrior first and foremost. He was a decent strategist according to Betrayal, but I wouldn't put him against Robby G. in the war room.

[blackoption]

I thought that was the point of his armour, to keep him alive in the fluff. I'll admit I'm not up on it, but wasn't the point of the Ynnari intervention along with Cawl making the new armour to keep him functioning? I thought he was still succumbing to the anathame even now. In any case, I see him as obviously a tactician and politician before a warrior (obviously since he's a Primarch he's still a warrior, though), while Mortarion is a warrior first and foremost. He was a decent strategist according to Betrayal, but I wouldn't put him against Robby G. in the war room.

 

I thought along similar lines as well Dusk raider, but there is a clear scene in Dark Imperium where Guilliman is in a body suit as his armor is being equipped on him.  I was surprised, but I took that to mean that Guilliman no longer needs the armor to survive.  Now, that might have been an oversight by the author, or perhaps when Guilliman spoke with his father, he also gained the means to stabilize his condition.  The book also goes into a little more detail on the nature of his injury: he was scarred by anathame (which is the injury from Calth, no the injury caused by Fulgrim) and it remains a 'emotional weakness' to the present time.  But it is a weakness that Guilliman is aware of and aware how Chaos might attempt to capitalize on it.

[DuskRaider]

I'm pretty sure Fulgrim was given THE Anathame by Horus after Isstvan V to show his loyalty. The very Anathame that more or less killed Horus, who was brought back under the influence / possession of the Chaos Gods. I believe this weapon was used to slit Guilliman's throat Post-Heresy by Daemon Primarch Fulgrim.

[blackoption]

Duskraider:  While I see the logic in that reasoning, there is nothing in Dark Imperium that suggests it was the Anathame that struck the mortal wound to Guilliman.  Fulgrim is described as having "blades rose from nothing, sprouting from his clenched fists," and that the "Swords were mismatched in form, and everoy one a different pastel hue. Bright poisons dripped from their edges."  None of those descriptions match the Anathame.  If I remember correctly, Kor Phaeron's Athame dagger was formed from the shards of the Anathame blade.  So, I do not think it plausible that Fulgrim used the Anathame to wound Guilliman.

[DuskRaider]

Ahh, you're right. Fulgrim abandoned after killing Vespasian and some Remembrancers. 

 

Edit: Actually, it looks like it was re-forged after Calth and Fulgrim used it to ascend to Daemonhood. I could have sworn in old fluff it was used on Guilliman but even if it was, it looks like it's been changed now.

Edited July 17, 2017 by DuskRaider

[Vesper]

I think Chaos have more plot devices than the loyalists :-P

 

How many times have we heard: "and suddenly the population of planet x that has stood it's ground for 10k years in sector y has succumbed to madness and rebelled against the Imperium"

 

And what about the Blackstone fortress plot device that destroyed Cadia when Abaddon's ground forcess and fleet were being pushed back? You remember that thing the Phalanx blew up? Well it turns out it's all part of the plan and all the various chunks will fly into the planet :-P

 

Ah, Gathering Storm 1. Chaos plot devices. I mean, they sorely need one or two for the story to still be a story, since the Imperials had those in droves.

Let's defend Cadia, we suddently have a big pylon shield activated by our plot devi... necron friend and his Mecanicawl friend deus ex machina.

NOES, the big bad Urkanthos overpowered us through brute force. That really sucks. Thanks god Saint "plot device" Celestine appeared for some reason. Save us all Celestine !

NO ! They still overpower us with superior numbers and tactical advantages ! Quick Necron buddy, let's throw that pokeball with 30k ultramarines in it ! I bet they hadn't seen that coming, right ?

- Oh God, no. Abaddon and his buddies are still killing everyone because they're better than us. Let's sever the connection of everyone to the warp to weaken him and have a chance. Because we can, obviously.

-Damn, Abaddon stronk, plz nerf, he will still kill Celestine ! Thank God, Inquisitor Whatever can still use her psychic powers without any connection to the warp, how convenient ! Save Celestine, quick !

 

Also love how the Phallanx, thrown at random in the warp, hilariously ends up right in the middle of the Black Legion's fleet, for some reason. And how the Eldars save our merry bunch at the end. I was really surprised, who would've thought, right ? Right ? RIGHT ?

 

Gathering Storm 1. It's the worst thing ever.

 

On the subject of Gilidude vs Mortarion, I'd say Mortarion is a clear winner considering how easy it was for Fulgrim to do Devil May Cry air combos (thanks Loesh for the image) with Guilidude and his ultramarines. Daemon Primarchs are funny like that.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Vesper