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=][= Unit(s) of the week: MT Scions=][=


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24 replies to this topic

#1
duz_

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It has come to the Commissariat's attention that some of you have not being keeping up with your regular training requirements. As such we intend to rectify this immediately by commencing an intensive re-education of the command corps. Failure will not be tolerated!
 
This will be a weekly series of threads aimed at discussing the units available to the Astra Miliatrum in 8th edition. This can become a resource for those finding their feet in 8th and our brothers in arms who have joined the fight in the glorious Imperial Guard.
 
The next series will cover our main battle line units, Troops.
This particular thread will be dedicated to the fine graduates of the Schola Progenium, Militarum Tempestus Scions
(NB: Anyone caught snickering or defacing this thread will be sent to the Commissary immediately for disciplinary action!)
 
Since I own a small, yet sizable force of Scions with I had often used as their own detachment in 7th I was glad to see that they can now be incorporated into base line troops for my Guard army! 
I had previously used these guys as suicide troops, however this edition thanks to changes to cover saves and AP I now try and have them last longer. I have had great success loading them with Plasma and dropping them into ruins to gain benefits of cover and harassing a nearby enemy or holding an objective. 
Better yet if you take a squad of 10, you can now have 4 special weapons in the same squad, it seems now that taking a flamer in these large squads for a bit of extra redundancy and overwatching might not be such a waste of their BS3+. 
I feel I will most likley take 1-2 units of these troops in my list and have them wait in reserve to deep strike in at a critical moment in the game (up until T3 in matched play that is). The temptation is to bring them down to early in the game when there is still a lot on the board which can easily wipe them out.
 
MT Command squads are tempting option too, especially with Commander in tow, however we'll save that for a future lesson ;)

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#2
DarthWaffle

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I'm leaning on the idea of just running a single 10 man squad with 3 plasma, 1 flamer. Seems like a decent squad that can dish out damage and hold off a charge if it happens. Melta is just too expensive unless is suicide troops, but frankly 8th edition no longer allows for much in the way of suicide alpha strike tactics, IMO.

 

I'm thinking about modelling mine as Terrax Guard, just for fun :)


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#3
duz_

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Admittedly Melta Scions are less attractive to me now that you can't get within the magic 6" window with deep strike.

You would likely have to wait a turn and hope your opponent doesn't nuke them or runaway in the meanwhile.

However they could also make good area denial units if they can get into cover and out of LOS.



#4
dakkamasta

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4 plasma with a prime for reroll 1s to hit order. Supercharge those plasmas and annhilate all that you see.

#5
Altasmurf

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Most of my opponents have already figured out how to mitigate deepstrike, so I have actually found that my scions aren't really all that successful. I feel using their points on artillery is probably a better option. That being said i am going to look at mounting them up as a small fast moving strike force in primes. They're a bit glass cannonish, however it should allow me to hopefully strike the targets I need to hit more.

#6
Lysere

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I think the main advantage of the deepstrike is simply that it gives you more options without having to buy specialized vehicles. Playing against an army that can't defend their back field from deep strike? Just drop right in and go to town.
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#7
dakkamasta

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Exactly. If you're playing against most space marine armies, some chaos armies, just elite-ish armies in general, they simply won't have enough units to completely cover their deployment zone. Secondly, if they havn't left you any good targets, maybe leave them for a turn or 2 and wait for the opponent to spread out his forces and drop them in once there's an opening.



#8
NatBrannigan

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They'd be good if I didn't keep putting them in the wrong place or rolling bad dice!

 

So far they've (Prime, Volleygun Command Squad, 10 man Plasma Squad (with one flamer) and a 5 man Melta Squad) been coming down in the same place on the same turn, shooting something up and holding an objective. They've also then been horribly slaughtered in Combat by Tactical Marines of all things... May as well not be wearing armour they way I roll!

 

I'm going to give my Sergeants Power Axes I think, for a bit of extra punch.

 

Them and 2 small Rough Rider Squads coming out of reserve have swung battles for me, capturing back field objectives or killing Devastator Squads. Big ol' thumbs up for me, but I thought they were ace last edition as well.



#9
Feral_80

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Scions are great. I would say the following is an auto-include for ANY IG army, due to the essential mobility, flexibility, and punch they offer:

 

- 1 Tempestor with rod

- 5-men Scions squad with 2x plasma gun and 1x plasma pistol

- 5-men Scions squad with 2x plasma gun and 1x plasma pistol OR, alternatively, if you don't need to fill a Troop slot here, Scions Command squad with 4x plasmagun for even greater punch.

 

All kept in reserve and sent in through deep strike, of course.

Adding more deepstriking units alters the optimal order/unit ratio, and I do not like it. 

 

Melta scions sadly only have a use when embarked, and there are other more efficient ways to deliver embarked melta.

Flamers and grenated launchers, I don't even consider these for Scions.

 

 

This means that the Taurox prime is best used as a static support fire platform rather than as a transport proper. But it is rather efficient in delivering dakka, so that's fine.

 

One thing that I have not yet tried is 10x Scions with 4x volleyguns inside a ruin, deployed normally. Might be really good against armoured opponents, with the right orders and support. I'm only concerned it might draw a bit too much attention...


Edited by Feral_80, 12 July 2017 - 12:07 PM.


#10
Lysere

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Grenade launchers can be quite good on scions when re rolling ones to hit. Drown the enemy in even more shots from a nice distance. Flamers would be just as good if you could actually use them out of deep strike.
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#11
dakkamasta

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I wouldn't write off meltas just yet. They are very effective if you put th em in a valk/vendetta since they can get dropped off turn one pretty much exactly where they want to be.

Plasma is the go to however for a deep striking unit, no contest.

#12
WarriorFish

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Melta will be less useful off the bat now, but as dakka says they still have a place - just outside of the old Deep Strike and pop tactic. Plasma may do 2 damage when overcharged, but when in close range the melta is going to be a lot more reliable at taking those wounds down. Get a larger squad with melta galore and even Land Raiders might be concerned msn-wink.gif

 

8th has definitely seen Stormies getting a much deserved boost so I'm keen to get mine on the table (whenever I get time...).


Edited by WarriorFish, 12 July 2017 - 03:01 PM.

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#13
Brother Talarian

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I still intend on bringing a unit with 4 melta in a dakka TP.

I don't see why people are writing off melta Scions because they're not "in melta range" the only benefit of being a few inches closer is that you take the highest value of two dice. If you roll 4 dice you'll still inflict a lot of hurt... sure two and take the highest is better.. but still... roll 4 2s and that's already 8dmg... you then have the dakka prime for support.

#14
micahwc

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I have 20 scions. 1 prime with command rod and a matching command squad with 4 plasma. The prime was assembled before the FAQ so I may end up giving him back his plasma pistol. 9 supercharged plasma shots when the squad arrives is pretty mean. Especially with 8 of the 9 re-rolling 1s.

 

I have two squads of 5 with dual melta guns.

 

My final squad is dual Volleyguns.

 

I have two Taurox Prime's for them. Each is armed with the Gatling Cannon and dual Autocannons. I went with Autocannons over Volleyguns because I figured if I ever want to use them in a static line I can still contribute with the range of the Autocannons. I figure two Taurox gatling cannons will be a decent deterrent to assaults.

 

As far as Melta guns versus Plasma guns, they have really similar average damage. Melta beats plasma but loses to supercharged plasma. If you are foot slogging than the assault profile on the melta is nice as you can advance and still shoot; if you don't need the ability to advance and shoot the better range on the plasma is an advantage for it; especially if you can re-roll 1s and supercharge.


The Codex Astartes no doubt has guidance that covers that kind of situation - long, detailed advice that would essentially boil down to "shoot the choppy ones, chop the shooty ones".


#15
Brother Talarian

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I have 20 scions. 1 prime with command rod and a matching command squad with 4 plasma. The prime was assembled before the FAQ so I may end up giving him back his plasma pistol. 9 supercharged plasma shots when the squad arrives is pretty mean. Especially with 8 of the 9 re-rolling 1s.

I have two squads of 5 with dual melta guns.

My final squad is dual Volleyguns.

I have two Taurox Prime's for them. Each is armed with the Gatling Cannon and dual Autocannons. I went with Autocannons over Volleyguns because I figured if I ever want to use them in a static line I can still contribute with the range of the Autocannons. I figure two Taurox gatling cannons will be a decent deterrent to assaults.

As far as Melta guns versus Plasma guns, they have really similar average damage. Melta beats plasma but loses to supercharged plasma. If you are foot slogging than the assault profile on the melta is nice as you can advance and still shoot; if you don't need the ability to advance and shoot the better range on the plasma is an advantage for it; especially if you can re-roll 1s and supercharge.


Hehe, I've assembled my Scions in the exact same way. Will probably magnetize the taurox.

#16
Withershadow

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Command Rod > plasma pistol.


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#17
Feral_80

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I did not say that melta is bad, just that it is less suited to Scions.

 

As (it seems) we all agree, melta only really works with embarked units. Scions are not that good when used as an embarked counter-charge unit, simply because you can get exactly the same result with a cheaper Command Squad. 

 

Thus, if want a counter-unit armed with melta (not an auto-include like plasma Scions, but against certain armies I'd probably want it), the way to go is double-flamer Chimera with 1-3 Command Squad, or a mix of Command Squad (melta) and SWS (flamer). Or the same in a Valkyrie for a more aggressive deployment, but I am still dubious the latter is worth the cost.



#18
Withershadow

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I actually like SWS with 2 meltas and a demo charge vs a command Squad with 4 meltas. As long as you roll a 3+ you're looking at same or better damage output (command reroll for the win). Neither unit is likely to survive a turn after but the SWS has more ablative bodies so are more likely to get another shot in.

#19
Tallarn Commander

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Or you could take a melta command squad AND a melta stormtrooper squad. Everything is so cheap in this edition that this is a viable tactic.

The command squad transport (either a Valk or a Chimera often escorted by a Hellhound) advances on one flank. The melta command squad (and accompanying plasma command squad) have dismounted, ripped a nice chunk out of the enemies' flank, and then died.

Meanwhile, the deep-striking squad of 10 stormtroopers with 4 meltaguns dropped into the enemies' backfield alongside 1 or 2 squads of 10 stormtroopers equipped with 4 plasma guns. It does take a turn for the melta scion squad to be ar close range, bit far in my games these guys have taken a nice bite out of the enemy. And they often survive to hold objectives and get linebreaker.

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#20
Inquisitor Fox

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I was planning on running 2 5man melta squads embarked in a Valkyrie for deep "disembarking and moving 6" " deployment :)  I wouldn't say melta on scions is dead at all... against elite multi-wound targets a meltagun is as much or more effective than a plasma gun even rapid fired.  Point those meltas at Teminator armored or crisis suit type opponents and let em rip!

 

They're still more heavily armored and better BS than standard guardsmen, so it's not all doom and gloom.  Just use a few more tools in the toolbox other than "deepstrike, shoot once and forget about".


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#21
dakkamasta

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I've actually been playing around with an idea for a nice combo of melta and plasma scions that makes best use of the weapons:

 

2 x tempestor primes with command rods

 

2 x tempestus command squads with 4 meltas

 

2 x 10 scions with 4 plasma and plasma pistol

 

1 vendetta (or valkyrie if you prefer)

 

Basically the plan is to drop the plasma squads with a prime in the opponents back field as normal, and then take the vendetta (or valkyrie) and put both command squads with the other prime in. Zoom the flyer up and drop off the melta scions using the disembark move to get into melta range and let rip. I like a vendetta here over a valkyrie since it can be used as a backup in case the meltas don't do enough damage on the drop.


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#22
Spikedhalo

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May I ask a question since I am now modelling my first MT squad?) 

 

I've read many variants of melta plasma etc. - But what about Vox in MT? Does anybody use it in squads of MT? Yes, it is -1 Plasma in Command squad, but... is there a real need for this? May be for flexibility of using those guys with rods?)) 



#23
duz_

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Like you said of you plan on using a command rod I see a benefit in it.
It will allow you to place the units far enough apart yet still be able to use orders.

In my game on Sunday I also noticed these guys lost Clarion-vox net special rule. Which is a bit of a bummer because that was handy their leadership is surprisingly low.

#24
Inquisitor Fox

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#25
Withershadow

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If you're going to put a vox in a command squad, give them three hot-shot volley guns and a vox, and drop them at a distance from the enemy in cover along with the commander.  However, command squads die so quickly they are basically suicide squads.

 

You're probably better off just bringing a pair of voxes in two regular squads.  The Commander can drop next to one of the squads, gaining protection from the extra bodies, and using that unit's vox to dial the other unit.






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