Primarch Book 5 - Lorgar: Bearer of the Word

[TheRealMcCagh]

A long time? It's been eleven years and they've released over fifty novels and short stories. You know how many ASoIaF books have come out in that entire time? One. Wheel of Time took twenty some years and it was a little over a dozen books. If you think the HH series is meant to be point A to point B, than you've signed yourself up for disappointment. Its meant to be a setting, not just a series. It would be like hating World War 2 history because they wont just get to Hitler killing himself and Japan surrendering already. We all know how it ends, its expanding on a period of time, not just telling a linear story

 

But, we've gotten pretty far off topic now. So I'm just going to leave it be

Edited July 25, 2017 by TheRealMcCagh

[ChildofFang]

I don't see the Primarch series as an addition to the main HH timeline.......

 

It seems to me that I might enjoy Lorgar as well. What characters are involved besides Lorgar? Another Legion maybe? Already known characters or completely new ones? Besides Lorgar and Kor Phaeron of course.

 

No one of real note, it's pre Emperor coming to Colchis and is very much the story of how Lorgar grew spiritually and how Lorgar's coming affects KP in a world of a global faith. There are a couple of framing scenes post Monarchia which are cool.

[hopkins]

 

For the main HH line (Horus moving to Terra) it gave almost nothing.

 

 

[HeritorA]

A long time? It's been eleven years and they've released over fifty novels and short stories. You know how many ASoIaF books have come out in that entire time? One. Wheel of Time took twenty some years and it was a little over a dozen books. If you think the HH series is meant to be point A to point B, than you've signed yourself up for disappointment. Its meant to be a setting, not just a series. It would be like hating World War 2 history because they wont just get to Hitler killing himself and Japan surrendering already. We all know how it ends, its expanding on a period of time, not just telling a linear story

 

But, we've gotten pretty far off topic now. So I'm just going to leave it be

 

Bad comparison - ASoIaF is written by 1 author - how many write for BL now? 18? yes 11 years - 39 novels, 10 anthologies, 50 shorts, 22 novellas.  And only 20 titles from all that are focused on what  really matters. Everything else are fillers   - to take you money the easiest way possible.

 

If it were 50 novels from Horus Rising to Death of the Empire (imagined title of the last book) it would have been ok.

But noooo - here take 1 novel: see we have Horus here for 1 page, and roll in 3 novellas, 5 shorts, 2 anthologies, then recycle previous stuff buy more anthologies  and 2 years later - here take another novel: we have Horus here for 2 pages.

Issue is not with the setting, or authors - issue is with the advertisement and marketing plan to milk the cow until there is nothing left, not even a corpse.

 

ChildofFang

'There are a couple of framing scenes post Monarchia which are cool.' - asking just for my plain curiosity, which one?

you mean his self-reservation dialog about the universe

[hopkins]

 

 to take you money the easiest way possible.

 

 issue is with the advertisement and marketing plan to milk the cow until there is nothing left, not even a corpse.

 

business gonna business

[HeritorA]

 

 

 to take you money the easiest way possible.

 

 issue is with the advertisement and marketing plan to milk the cow until there is nothing left, not even a corpse.

 

business gonna business

 

sadly true. Partly it was all explained by Laurie several months ago in his interview

[Petitioner's City]

 

 

 

 to take you money the easiest way possible.

 

 issue is with the advertisement and marketing plan to milk the cow until there is nothing left, not even a corpse.

 

business gonna business

 

sadly true. Partly it was all explained by Laurie several months ago in his interview

 

 

How did he say it?

[HeritorA]

 

 

 

 

 to take you money the easiest way possible.

 

 issue is with the advertisement and marketing plan to milk the cow until there is nothing left, not even a corpse.

 

business gonna business

 

sadly true. Partly it was all explained by Laurie several months ago in his interview

 

 

How did he say it?

 

 

you could read it here - http://www.trackofwords.com/2017/02/11/black-library-there-and-back-again-with-laurie-goulding

[ChildofFang]

I mean the scenes not one specific scene.

I will say that expecting a series which goes back to look at key character defining moments or those events that have become legendary, to push forward the 'main story' is not going to end well.

 

Additionally I think the idea of HH 'milking the cash cow' has been stated and doesn't need to be anymore. Plenty of people appear to be enjoying the additional world or character building that goes on in these stories and leaving out of the prime series means those who don't like that style can simply not buy them.

 

The Primarchs series was created specifically seperate so the main series can avoid dragging it's feet and hopefully once Terra has been dealt with we still get stories within the HH setting as myself and, as far as I can tell, plenty of others are hungry to discover other aspects of the setting. This means the primary Heresy novels cater to one audience and the extra novels satisfy the others who want a more full series - It also shouldn't delay the numbered series as they plan around release slots and will only ever have so many in a given year.

 

[Taliesin]

 

 

The Primarchs series was created specifically seperate so the main series can avoid dragging it's feet and hopefully once Terra has been dealt with we still get stories within the HH setting as myself and, as far as I can tell, plenty of others are hungry to discover other aspects of the setting. This means the primary Heresy novels cater to one audience and the extra novels satisfy the others who want a more full series - It also shouldn't delay the numbered series as they plan around release slots and will only ever have so many in a given year.

 

 

 

This point keeps having to be repeated, but I suspect Heritor is the only one who hasn't realized it, or does not want to.

The stated goals for the Primarchs series are clear and the novels are doing what was promised.

 

Blaming a series that is essentially a flasback series for not moving the story forward is nuts. That's the job of the Horus Heresy series proper, as 99% of us realize.

[HeritorA]

 

 

 

The Primarchs series was created specifically seperate so the main series can avoid dragging it's feet and hopefully once Terra has been dealt with we still get stories within the HH setting as myself and, as far as I can tell, plenty of others are hungry to discover other aspects of the setting. This means the primary Heresy novels cater to one audience and the extra novels satisfy the others who want a more full series - It also shouldn't delay the numbered series as they plan around release slots and will only ever have so many in a given year.

 

 

 

This point keeps having to be repeated, but I suspect Heritor is the only one who hasn't realized it, or does not want to.

The stated goals for the Primarchs series are clear and the novels are doing what was promised.

 

Blaming a series that is essentially a flasback series for not moving the story forward is nuts. That's the job of the Horus Heresy series proper, as 99% of us realize.

 

 

True, but the issue is visible in ligament with HH - it's dragging very slowly with fillers and feedbacks. If to assess Priamrchs and HH separately - that's another case

[ChildofFang]

Debatable to the extreme to suggest that the HH is dragging very slowly and yes we know your view so you don't have to repeat it.

 

Additionally treatin the primarchs series and the main series as even roughly the same thing is a bit of a fallacy, they have different roles and goals and should be treated differently as such.

[bluntblade]

Indeed. The Primarch novels are essentially little prequels to the Heresy.

 

Unless Heritor's gripe is more along the lines of "how dare they let authors write stories that don't march the Heresy towards Terra?"

[1000 Sons]

The reason I think the heresy storyline is moving so slowly is because there is no where for it to race towards. Unless you just want to know the dialogue between horus, sang and emp there is hardly anything new to find out. I am still drooling to find out more about Mortarion and typhon, sevatar, omegon, Khârn.

[Saa]

So. I bought a LE copy with much trepidation because of the author covering my favourite Primarch. My wife as a secret gift bought me a copy because she knew I was reluctant to buy it because of my bitching about the authors previous work within the Heresy.

 

So now I have TWO LE copies of it and I can't bring myself to read either of them for concern of disappointment.

 

Can someone please give me an overview and advise me if it'll be painful or not haha

 

Someone without massive bias towards the series as a whole.......no names mentioned

 

Saa.......

 

.....or something like that

[Marshal Loss]

2/3 of the way through Lorgar - I have some issues with the book, but overall, I am pleasantly surprised. This is coming from one who is far from a fan of Thorpe's work - I am glad I gave it a chance. I'll post more detailed thoughts when I'm done.

[Marshal Loss]

Forgive the double post, but thought it was worth the bump. I've just completed the book. I'll try to keep spoilers and general comments separate. While waiting for my book to arrive I noticed virtually no discussion anywhere so I thought I'd type up something relatively in-depth.

 

Right, so I'm giving it a 0/10 because it doesn't feature the Siege of Terra.

 

---

 

I don't think I've ever been a Gav Thorpe fan. His name evokes bitter memories of the 4th ed CSM codex, and the HH novels I've read of his have simply not been enjoyable for me. I strongly disliked Deliverance Lost/Corax, and I don't like his work with the Dark Angels. I've enjoyed some of his WHFB stuff in years gone by. When I saw that he was doing Lorgar, I was more than a little annoyed. I don't envy somebody trying to follow ADB, who has done the overwhelming majority of the material we have on Aurelian. Tough act to follow. But the Limited Edition was gorgeous and I figured it might add a little variety and depth to other depictions, so I bought it anyway, because like many of us I'm clearly an addict.

 

The Primarch series is a bit of a mixed bag. Everybody loves Primarchs, and BL/GW knows it. There's a reason Primarchs are popping up everywhere in 40k (groan). Guilliman was horrendous, Magnus I did not enjoy at all, and while Russ was written well it wasn't particularly memorable for me. Perturabo was the first novel in the series I read and thought 'this was worth putting the time into writing'. It reconciled two different perspectives (McNeill's, which I did not like, and French's, which I did) in masterful fashion, and gave a measured dose of both Perturabo leading his Legion under horrific circumstances and the formative years of his youth. The two most important parts of his life, that made him who he was. It wasn't perfect but I really loved it. A true addition to the setting rather than just another hastily commissioned book designed to capitalise on how popular the Primarchs are.

 

I think the Primarch series is at its best when it tries to add something new to what came before, rather than simply giving another dose of Primarch pornography. Guilliman Magnus and Russ didn't really add anything, in my view, regardless of the individual quality of each work. Perturabo added a lot. The character of Lorgar has been covered far better than Perturabo though, thanks to ADB, so Thorpe had to find a niche. I think he did a good job overall, even if the book should probably be called '200 pages of Kor Phaeron attempting to prove that he, not Erebus, is the ultimate dick in the universe.' 

 

What I liked:

1. The world of Colchis is by far the highlight of the book. It felt like a super religious Mad Max in space, with echoes of other sci-fi universes crammed in. It's an unforgiving environment with a really unique character. It's just really cool. Having a different system of time helps to make it feel different, and assists in making a world where literally every single character is a religious lunatic feel more real. There are links to titles and iconography (the Urizen, the Burning Book, etc) that pop up from time to time, adding a little depth to the Word Bearers, but in a way that doesn't feel shoehorned in (one of the main problems i often have with Graham McNeill - the insanely stupidly obvious foreshadowing everywhere).
2. The book being divided up like a pseudo-religious text was cool. A nice little feature.
3. Those characters that were introduced (although the book circulates around Kor Phaeron and Lorgar) seemed fun to me, even if they weren't fleshed out much. That might be partially derived from the length of the book.
4. Thorpe didn't pretend to be a theologian. There are no real times where you're forced to listen to two characters have a ham-fisted philosophical debate, even if some of the speeches Lorgar gives that are meant to sway entire populations seem a little cheesy - but then again, if Thorpe (or anybody) was actually able to write sermons that well, he'd probably be ruling large swathes of the planet, not writing for BL, so this might be unrealistic expectation on my part.
5. I thought Lorgar's dislike for violence, and own particular talents, were covered well. He shows natural aptitude for combat, but is not made out to be some kind of god of war. The young Primarch learns quickly, but generally beats the living crap out of everybody in his way, where necessary, through virtue of his gene-forged power, rather than being a true warrior. Unlike many other Primarchs, he doesn't help to re-invent amazing technologies, but instead dedicates himself completely to religion and to drowning Colchis in his creed. His planet is a stagnant world of no little horror, but if it bothers him, it's never noted. I really liked this, even if it means that he seems rather single-dimensional. He's a being of singular focus. Having none of the novel from his perspective helps show him as the saviour he is built up to be.

What I did not like:

 

1. The story felt rushed at times. Roughly 2/3 of the book covers Lorgar's formative early years, and then we rush through the 'Holy War' in a relatively short period of time. Many of the rival cities had a really interesting character and it would have been great to see more of them, to have more fished out. Additionally, when the solution to every problem is Lorgar saying some nice words or beating people to death, it becomes very predictable. I especially disliked that
   much of the epic conflict was stolen from us - when Lorgar and Kor Phaeron arrived at the main city, they've already murdered their leaders and just hand the city over. It felt anti-climactic, when the entire book felt like it was building towards this moment, with constant references to Kor Phaeron's exile from the city
   I think with an extra 100 pages, this would have been a far better book. Some parallels with his actions in the Crusade(s) would have been nice.
2. Similarly, I would have liked to see more scenes from the Great Crusade, showing how the rot festered at the heart of the Legion under the guidance of Erebus and the Keeper of the Faith. Kor Phaeron's 'Dark Heart' of the Legion is mentioned a few times, but no depth is added. I would have liked to see Kor Phaeron deciding whether to kill Lorgar, as per Aurelian. Seeing how he spread the word within his Legion to keep the old creed alive, getting some to owe him their loyalty rather than to their god-like father. This was a missed opportunity, and a bit more time devoted to the sections that do cover this would have made it a lot better.
3. Kor Phaeron. I get that he's meant to be a bad guy, but man, it's a little jarring at times. I would have liked to see more conflict with the more humane slave who provides contrast to him. Not my favourite depiction of the character.

My biggest gripe, though, is the ending, where Kor Phaeron realises that...

 

Lorgar allowed himself to be manipulated all along, giving Kor Phaeron the illusion of power from the beginning. Every step of the way, it was all part of his vision.

 

I'm not sure why he did this. I get that this helps to assert that yes, Lorgar is a super-human demi-god gene-forged badass who ain't need no man, but I think that it would have been better to remove this ending from the book. We've already seen Lorgar transition from lost soul in The First Heretic to the Arch-priest of Chaos in Betrayer, and this does not sync well with this.

 

I would have preferred to see some other aspects to Lorgar added, to provide some basis to the assertion that he might have been able to be a counterpart to Guilliman. That would have made the book an invaluable addition to the setting in my eyes.

 

That being said, overall, I enjoyed the book, and I think it's worth a look if you're interested in Lorgar/Kor Phaeron (or Colchisian society in particular). It's not perfect, but I'm glad I picked it up. He successfully added depth and information to prior depictions of the Word Bearers and their Primarch, even if the ending felt a little hollow, and as a fan of Lorgar and his Legion I don't regret the purchase, and felt pleasantly surprised.

Edited July 30, 2017 by Marshal Loss

[Saa]

Thanks a LOT for the review Marshall Loss. Constructive and erudite.

 

You've given me the enthusiasm to start reading it today.

 

Saa.....

 

.....or something like that

[hopkins]

 

Right, so I'm giving it a 0/10 because it doesn't feature the Siege of Terra.

 

[HeritorA]

So now as people read it I want to ask question and agree with you.

Marshal Loss

1) Major point and the one you mentioned -

Lorgar allowed himself to be manipulated all along, giving Kor Phaeron the illusion of power from the beginning. Every step of the way, it was all part of his vision.

  - that was one absolutely abominable moments that ruined any belief in Lorgar ability to think clearly. That totally ruined any image building of Lorgar we had in FH and Betrayer already, as you did mentioned.

 

2) 'The world of Colchis is by far the highlight of the book' - one of the truly great points in Lorgar. Gav was able to breathe life into one of traitoris homeworlds without ruining our previous expectations on it.

 

3) The book being divided up like a pseudo-religious text was cool. A nice little feature. - agreed fully. It gave context - even through Thorpe didn't pretend to be a theologian, as you also mentioned.

 

4) 'That being said, overall, I enjoyed the book, and I think it's worth a look if you're interested in Lorgar/Kor Phaeron' - exactly. I gave it for the fan of the HH in general (and not any Legion in particular) and he was majorily disappointed with it. But my friend who like Primarchs direction, WB in particular and zealotry mixed with idolatry was delighted to read it.

Edited August 10, 2017 by HeritorA

[Knockagh]

I adored this book. Loved every inch of it.

The similarities between pre Imperium Colchis culture and what would become 40k imperial culture are great to see. Lorgar and Kor are simply superb characters to watch develop.

[HeritorA]

I adored this book. Loved every inch of it.

The similarities between pre Imperium Colchis culture and what would become 40k imperial culture are great to see. Lorgar and Kor are simply superb characters to watch develop.

 

Indeed. As all who read it saw the book is truly a good one for the culture of pre-Imperium before GK and W40K with great parallels to old Messopotamia cultures etc.

Also Lorgar maturing and Kor Phaeron 'darkening' and spitefulness goes into overdrive from the start as we could see.

 

Relations with 'fathers' was Lorgar issue almost from the day one.

[Saa]

Finished the book whilst travelling back home on business and I have to say I was pleasently surprised. The insight into Colchisian culture was very compelling and the characters were well written and interesting.

 

I've always had a soft spot for Lorgar and the words 'All I wanted was the truth' echoed though my head on every turn of the page however for me the highlight was the fleshing out of Kor Pharons character.

 

I think from now on I'll not prejudge a book purely because it was written by author who's works I've not enjoyed so much in the past, as it's clear that Mr Thorpe has grown and developed his skills as a writer. I'll even buy Old Earth on this premise

 

Saa......

 

......or something like that

[Mellow]

Has this come out on iBooks yet?

[1ncarnadine]

I think just the Limited Edition physical copy is out. With these Primarchs series books, the iBook, normal hardback and audio come out 2 months later, so October?