How are the Tau faring in 8th so far?

[CoffeeGrunt]

We'll have to wait and see what the Codex brings, when it eventually lands. Personally I'm glad Tau are weak, because they're a challenge now, but that's just me.

[Panzer]

Yeah the Codex could change everything. I have high hopes especially for Point adjustments since I basically like how play currently (except for the almost impossible to buff BS4+).

I don't see anything positive in T'au being weak. I don't want my army to be a challenge, I want my army to be fair and fun to play.

[Happy-inquisitor]

How T'au are playing really does depend on the types of games you play.

 

The index has given T'au a fairly distinctive play style where most of the firepower needs to get danger-close to really work but they have the mobility and deployment tricks to make that work with the ability to escape from combat to carry on fighting. It is a really fun playstyle and if you are playing somewhere in the range of casual to semi-competitive games it is powerful with just enough element of risk for both players to enjoy the game. This is clearly what GW see as the mainstream of the game and the index design works well in these sorts of games.

 

There are some internal balance issues particularly with units that were top dog in 6th and 7th. The Riptide is disappointing even in casual games, as to a lesser extent is the Broadside. A lot of this is just down to weird points costs - it is hard to find a rational reason for a HYMP to be 41 points when a twin autocannon with the same damage output and superior range (and usually on a platform with superior BS) is 33.

 

For most units in the index the key to success is markerlights. That is an obvious and deliberate design decision by GW; they are not AM with super-cheap dudes and weapons [1] so they need the accuracy boosts from markerlight to compete. At a competitive level this does not work, you will at most have 1 turn of shooting with the support from sufficient markerlights and T'au shooting is just not good enough to swing the game in one turn. The durable markerlight sources are prohibitively expensive for the purpose of getting enough hits to make the army efficient, the massed markerlight sources are pathetically fragile in a competitive environment. So what we see in competitive list building tends to be the heavy hitters are the very few units available which do not suffer from poor BS (Commanders, Flamer Crisis, Y'Vahra, Longstrike) with enough drones to act as wound sinks and screens. The lack of variety in tournament T'au lists is rapidly becoming as bad as it was for 'Nids in 7th.

 

The increasingly common -1 BS mechanic is a real problem for any sort of combined-arms T'au build. They are hitting on an Orky 5+ and their main mechanism to counter this also only hits on a 5+ so it is a double-penalty. If this becomes widespread then even in casual games the competitive mono-build may come to be the only thing that actually functions on the table. Let's hope the codex arrives before then.

 

[1] Some of those AM are arguably too cheap given their impact on the top competitive tables but I will try to stay out of that argument. Comparatively with equivalent shooting armies T'au are priced as elite but shoot like average dudes unless they have 5+ markerlight tokens.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Happy-inquisitor

[Kilofix]

I’ve been having success by running a very aggressive list with a number of starting Stealth Units with Homing Beacon and a Ghostkeel or two, then dropping Quad Fusion Commanders and triple Flamer Suits. I also include a lot of Drones to take Lascannon / Missile / Melta hits. Lastly I have a Sunshark with Pulse Bomb for hordes.

[jeffersonian000]

I’ve been having success by running a very aggressive list with a number of starting Stealth Units with Homing Beacon and a Ghostkeel or two, then dropping Quad Fusion Commanders and triple Flamer Suits. I also include a lot of Drones to take Lascannon / Missile / Melta hits. Lastly I have a Sunshark with Pulse Bomb for hordes.

Sounds like a fast fun list best suited for dense terrain tables. How many points? How is it playing so far? It's functionally the same army I want play.

 

SJ

[Panzer]

 

I’ve been having success by running a very aggressive list with a number of starting Stealth Units with Homing Beacon and a Ghostkeel or two, then dropping Quad Fusion Commanders and triple Flamer Suits. I also include a lot of Drones to take Lascannon / Missile / Melta hits. Lastly I have a Sunshark with Pulse Bomb for hordes.

Sounds like a fast fun list best suited for dense terrain tables. How many points? How is it playing so far? It's functionally the same army I want play.

 

SJ

 

Except for the Sunshark and Ghostkeel such a list is pretty much the go-to for T'au right now. Some other things work more or less well but the core of the more serious T'au lists are Stealth Suits with Homing Beacon for either QFB Commander or Flamer Crisis and a bunch of Gun and Shield Drones.

[Kilofix]

 

 

I’ve been having success by running a very aggressive list with a number of starting Stealth Units with Homing Beacon and a Ghostkeel or two, then dropping Quad Fusion Commanders and triple Flamer Suits. I also include a lot of Drones to take Lascannon / Missile / Melta hits. Lastly I have a Sunshark with Pulse Bomb for hordes.

Sounds like a fast fun list best suited for dense terrain tables. How many points? How is it playing so far? It's functionally the same army I want play.SJ

Except for the Sunshark and Ghostkeel such a list is pretty much the go-to for T'au right now. Some other things work more or less well but the core of the more serious T'au lists are Stealth Suits with Homing Beacon for either QFB Commander or Flamer Crisis and a bunch of Gun and Shield Drones.

My list at about 1750 is:

 

2 x Quad Fusion Commanders

Coldstar

3 x Tri Flamer Crisis

6 x Stealths w/Beacon

1 x Ghostkeel (to draw fire from the Stealths in turn 1)

3 x 5 Breachers w/Guardian Drones

1 x 5 Pathfinders

2 Piranhas (to charge and tie up vehicles)

1 Sunshark

At least 12 Tactical Drones spread throughout

7 CP

 

I play Maelstrom w/Objectives mostly though.

[Xwingt65]

Wauv. That sounds like a dreary army... In

Yeah the Codex could change everything. I have high hopes especially for Point adjustments since I basically like how play currently (except for the almost impossible to buff BS4+).

I don't see anything positive in T'au being weak. I don't want my army to be a challenge, I want my army to be fair and fun to play.

Same. I think they went to far with nerfing Tau.

 

One simple fix would be to let battlesuits ignore the -1 bs for moving thing. That is rrally was is hurting. And a lot of the points costs make no sense.

[Lord_Ikka]

The bog-standard BS 4+ across the army is really infuriating to me, and I don't even play T'au. My friend does, and its pretty pathetic that his elite Fire Caste members in a high-tech battlesuits or advanced hovertanks have the same BS as my IG grunts.

[CoffeeGrunt]

They don't. The Hammerhead and Skyray are BS3+. 

 

The main problem here is that everyone's mentality is so Marine-centric that they think 3+ is the average and 4+ is terrible. Also using fluff to try and justify anything in terms of rules is silly. I can crack open my 'Nids Codex and read of extragalactic, perfectly genetically-engineered organisms bred for the sole purpose of genocide with weapons integrated as part of their very bodies, and they're BS4+. I can read about muscular Rambo/Arnie expies born and raised on a planet so inimical to human life that every day is a fight for your life. BS4+.

 

It's funny whenever anyone uses Guardsmen in fluff terms as a low-bar for accuracy due to their BS4+, by the way, because they're normally referring to Cadians, who are trained from birth in marksmanship and tactics. Still BS4+.

 

I think the Tau community got too used to being able to guarantee hits with Markerlights. "You get BS5, and you get BS5, and you get BS5!" The previous Codex made this even easier with a billion different ways to get +1BS, and everyone got soft because of how easy Tau were all of a sudden.

 

I think Markerlights need a fundamental rethink, and some points need dire rebalancing, but the BS4+ should stay.

[Panzer]

 

The main problem here is that everyone's mentality is so Marine-centric that they think 3+ is the average and 4+ is terrible.

No that's really not the problem. The problem is that an average BS without having good access to improve it is just silly for an army that can basically nothing else than shooting.

 

I agree that the Markerlight table needs to get re-worked tho. Making the +1 to-hit bonus easier to access or even have a second +1 to-hit bonus (one early and one late on the table) would make BS4+ T'au much more feasible since after all, T'au do have rather bad eyesight and are physically less capable than other races (that includes running while maintaining steady aim) and why they invented the Markerlight technology.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I'd say that 2 +1s to Hit in 8th would be really powerful, given how the BS system works these days.

[Panzer]

Of course it would be really powerful. Our shooting is supposed to be powerful and it's basically our psychic power. Seeing how CSM can make Slaanesh units shoot twice for just a few CP, I don't think that would be too strong considering that our Markerlight sources are rather easy to remove.

[CoffeeGrunt]

But like I said, everyone else would be just as justified in having those stats.

[the jeske]

I'd say that 2 +1s to Hit in 8th would be really powerful, given how the BS system works these days.

you mean like marines get from re-rolls.

 

the problem with tau[well one of the problems], is that half their stuff requires to move, which makes hiting on +5 on one or two shot weapons horrible. Now if tau also could good make a viable shoting swarm or a static gunline, it would be ok[not fun for everyone, but ok]. But they can't and that is the problem, this forces people in to stupid cmd builds [same as tyranids were made in to Codex Hive Tyrant], because it is one of the few models in the codex that has the fire power and the BS to hit stuff, move and being based around characters allows some flexiblity from time to time.

[Panzer]

But like I said, everyone else would be just as justified in having those stats.

I'm not talking from a fluff point of view. Others aren't as justified to have those because they have other stuff to compensate.

[Triszin]

as a weird side thought I was having yesterday, what if 6 on the marker light table made all ap 0 weapons fire at ap-1?

[Panzer]

Just read the Ulthwé article. So they get a 1CP +1 to-hit Stratagem and a Path of Command ability that lets units within 6" re-roll hit rolls of 1 and returns Command Point spent on a 6.

 

So I really don't think Markerlights being able to give us two +1 to-hit bonuses is too much for an army that can't do anything else besides shooting but with a base BS4+ and heavy weapons on all the big stuff lol

Edited October 17, 2017 by sfPanzer

[the jeske]

Make marker lights more like psychic powers, GW can even keep the attrocious bs on units with markers. But make stuff like suits not lose BS when they move, bring jsj [or something like that] back. Seriously rethink  the point costs of some units. I get that marines are the main sellers for GW, and that tau were annoying[when they were good] for marine players [specially with bad lists], but some things should not be done. Tau already are as strange faction [along side with orcs]. It has no psy powers[which are super important], it can't soup like imperial/chaos/eldar or even tyranids. If marker lights are [in GWs mind] so important, then why not give them 3-6 effects that have nice utility, but without the stacking. 1 token one effect. If this means number of markers in units has to drop, then do it. Anything is better then the situation that there is now [to actualy use markers one has to run too many units, and the effects are kind of a meh ].

 

What I fear though is that the tau codex is going to have some sort of copy of IG/chaos/marines tactics, maybe cost adjustments and everything else will stay the same. And then we are going to be back to tau of 5-6th ed times.

[Panzer]

It can't soup like imperials yet(!). If GW wants to they could release a ton of auxiliary units for the T'au Empire as well. ^^

 

Also I think the general way how Markerlights work is fine right now. I prefer it over the pick&use way of 7th. The table is just bad at some points (particularly the second and third one, aka the ones you'll get the most).

And yes of course we won't see such big changes. If they wanted to change things that way they would've done so in the Index already. The Codexes now aren't supposed to do a 180° on the Index. That's something we maybe can expect for a future Codex if at all. For now cost adjustments, additional rules with Septs, Stratagems, traits and relics has to do. Maybe some reworked special rules if we are lucky. Honestly tho...that would be enough. The way T'au work currently is not bad (apart from the BS4+, heavy weapon, bad markerlight table problem), everything is just too expensive.

[Aothaine]

I’ve been having success by running a very aggressive list with a number of starting Stealth Units with Homing Beacon and a Ghostkeel or two, then dropping Quad Fusion Commanders and triple Flamer Suits. I also include a lot of Drones to take Lascannon / Missile / Melta hits. Lastly I have a Sunshark with Pulse Bomb for hordes.

 

Tripple flamer suits! Man I brought this up at Tau Tactica back in like March and was laughed off the forums. But they are amazing! I feel redeemed right now

 

As you T'au being weak.. I think people are still not playing them correctly. You need to use kroot. They are expensive, appear weak. But are really decent at absorbing assaults. Then you retreat with them and unload into your enemy again. Use some of the other units as well like Piranha and Stingwings. I think most people are still stuck in the 7th ed mindset with them. I'll try and run some tests this weekend and report back.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Aothaine

[Panzer]

 

I’ve been having success by running a very aggressive list with a number of starting Stealth Units with Homing Beacon and a Ghostkeel or two, then dropping Quad Fusion Commanders and triple Flamer Suits. I also include a lot of Drones to take Lascannon / Missile / Melta hits. Lastly I have a Sunshark with Pulse Bomb for hordes.

 

Tripple flamer suits! Man I brought this up at Tau Tactica back in like March and was laughed off the forums. But they are amazing! I feel redeemed right now

 

As you T'au being weak.. I think people are still not playing them correctly. You need to use kroot. They are expensive, appear weak. But are really decent at absorbing assaults. Then you retreat with them and unload into your enemy again. Use some of the other units as well like Piranha and Stingwings. I think most people are still stuck in the 7th ed mindset with them. I'll try and run some tests this weekend and report back.

 

You weren't laughed off the forum tho? At least not if you're talking about ATT. You weren't and aren't the only one running tripple Flamer Crisis successfully you know. It's one of the first things I tried. ^^

 

And no you don't need to use Kroot. Kroot are bad bad. You trade 2ppm for worse armor, worse weapons, no Bounding Knife Ritual and gain the scout move when comparing to regular Firewarrior. That's just not worth it. If you value the Scout move so much, take Pathfinder. If you want to charge them into enemy lines to bind them, take Gun Drones (way more durable, M8, Fly keyword, Saviour Protocols and best source of S5 dakka), if you want cheap Troops, take Firewarrior.

But I think we had that discussion already over on ATT and you were basically the only one defending Kroot as being good till the end so I guess there's no point in discussing with you about them anyway.

 

Also from what I've seen, almost everyone who is active on forums already switched well over to 8th edition. Nobody is playing T'au like in 7th anymore.

[CoffeeGrunt]

People still go on ATT? It was dead last time I checked.

[Panzer]

When was the last time you checked? It hasn't been dead for quite a while now. Just a rather small community. :D

[MithrilForge]

I think that's what he meant by 'dead', small community of like minded people sometimes means no new thought bubbles,...no crazy new ideas,...

 

Mithril