Bloody Legionnaire Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 Anyone still including Vindicators in your lists in 8th unfortunately one of my favorite tanks has taken a pretty bad hit with the elimination of all templates. Some gamers are saying they're dead this edition. Vindicators don't appear to be the response to hordes anymore but are they really not worth taking at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Corbin Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 Yes, no more landing a template over a Land Raider or Riptide and having them take only 1 hit, now it really puts the hurt on them! Plus, the firing profile changes vs units of more than 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolvar Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 They got the short stick, at least until the SM codex arrives. Right now, they are outshined in every aspect except durability when compared to a pred (vindicators have T8, while preds have T7, but that's not enough). Predators can be build to either be better vehicle/monster killers (4 lascannon shots against 1d3 demolisher shots) or better horde killers than vindicators (2d3 autocannon shots + 6 heavy bolter shots against 1d6 demolisher shots). Hell, even dreadnoughts are better at that role than vindicators, because a mortis dreadnought (or other variant which can take 2 ranged weapons) cost about the same but with better firepower. Maybe if vindicators cost are dropped to 140 points could be an option, but right now, there are better options Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Ed Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 Apparently they are getting some kind of stratagem in the codex. Perhaps that will help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timur Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 Vindi's got derped on the multi-model shooting. D6 is not as good as a template, unless you have weighted dice. However, D3 @ vehicles/monsters/etc is a buff to the Vindi. Also do not dismiss T8 vs. T7. It is significantly harder to wound. Think of it as the new AV14. I use a Vindi to draw fire, and if the dice are with me, do damage. Edit: Full disclosure, I avg. 2-3 CP on re-rolling 1's for # of shots.=) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golf33 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Durability gives them a different role than previously. Against orks, I find they don't do much damage, but I can use them to charge a big mob that would otherwise charge (and destroy) something I would rather keep alive. The Vindicator is tough enough that it will survive (just barely) and it can fall back the next turn to let me shoot and then charge the mob I was worried about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Navaer Solaq Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 i have not used any vindicators in any of my games. i found them lack luster with the number of shots they can dish out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Currently totally useless, so no. I own two, and will keep them for the time being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extropian Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Their role has certainly changed. They are pretty bad against hordes now, but are very good at smashing tough multi wound models (especially T5 ones...far better than lascannons here because of that extra point of STR). They can also in theory put 18 wounds on a vehicle or large target in 1 shot, though that is ofc very unlikely. Their toughness helps though, changing S4 weapons from wounding on 5+ to a 6+. That's twice as resilient against one of the most common S values in the game, though the question becomes whether many people spam S4 shots at tanks at all. I don't think they are great, but i don't think they are fully useless either. Jury is still out a bit for me on this, though it's not looking super promising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 They'll never do that. Short range, -1BS when they move, you're looking at 1d6 damage on average, potentially ignored with saves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 They've added so many steps to actually causing the damage that it's just useless.... Roll for Number of Shots > Roll to Hit > Roll to Wound > Opponent Saves > Roll for Damage 5 Dice rolls that can lead to almost nothing before you even deal any damage, which is a further dice roll of D6... I can't be bothered to do the mat The hits should certainly scale up with PER 5 models add another D3 after the first, so 5 = 2D3, 10 = 3D3, 15 = 4D3 etc The current cap is silly, but should probably still have a limit as this is technically a machine destroyer. Damage also needs to be at least 3+D3 FLAT against: Vehicles, Monsters, Buildings to represent you tearing total chunks from them. D6 is fine for infantry as they can scramble, get behind cover or use other ways of avoiding the blast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extropian Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 I agree, its not likely at all. They are better than a lascannon still, but the thing is that very few dedicated AT platforms have A lascannon. They have several. Is a Demolisher better than 1 LC? Absolutely? Better than 2? Hmm....maybe. Probably yes, since it'll have the same average shots, higher strength, and same damage and save mods. Better than 3? No. After that it gets silly, and since Predators, Land Raiders, Tarantulas, Devastators can all rock 4+ with ease it doesn't go well. BUT, the Vindicator is still very cheap for an 8th Edition vehicle with a decent gun. If you think of it as "2 and a bit Lascannons" in effectiveness, tha'ts not too far off the mark, on a tough chassis. it's sweet spot is shooting large multi wound units, but there's just not many 2+ wound units with 10+ members. As i said, i don't think it's great, but i don't think it's totally without merit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Admittedly, it would mess up things like Nob Bikers and (ironically) Primaris Marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extropian Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Nob ikrs especially are good targets, yeah. And 10 man Intercessor/Reiver squads will not have fun. But still, i don't think anti-infantry is their strength. That random shot count just can't be relied upon to clear units. I do however look forward to the "multiple Vindicator" stratagem GW mentioned in one of their community posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrummersGhost Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 I do however look forward to the "multiple Vindicator" stratagem GW mentioned in one of their community posts. Likewise. I'm assuming it will be similar to the apocalyptic blast shenanigans from 7th albeit with some equivalent for the template of course. It would have to be special though to make them worthwhile to take in that number. I'm holding a shred of hope that they'll benefit from some sort of iron hands detachment bonus like last ed. I own 3 of them and theyve sat in my case since my last game of 7th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloody Legionnaire Posted July 19, 2017 Author Share Posted July 19, 2017 Nob ikrs especially are good targets, yeah. And 10 man Intercessor/Reiver squads will not have fun. But still, i don't think anti-infantry is their strength. That random shot count just can't be relied upon to clear units. I do however look forward to the "multiple Vindicator" stratagem GW mentioned in one of their community posts. *sigh* I was planning on using them for a Death Guard Army... I highly doubt any Chaos vehicles will be getting anything remotely that useful. I can't believe their hits are 2d3 honestly. and 3+D3 damage makes a lot of sense to me as well. IMO Flamer and MLs profile match very well with the amount of hits they would have dealt with a template. It's like they didn't even consider that for the Siege cannon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unseen Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 The vindicators demolisher cannon isn't the only previously large blast weapon that is pretty bad now, but man is it one of the hardest hit. Sad, cause who doesn't like giant cannons mounted on a tiny tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extropian Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 It is sad times, always been one of my favourite tanks. Maybe thats why i'm trying so hard to make them not suck :D I think the Demo cannon was a victim of it's own power, and they found it hard to balance. If it was 1d6 or 2d3 shots base it would be disgusting against vehicles vehicles, and would be the best AT gun in the game i think (i dont have a full weapon list here, but it'd be well up there). Not counting superheavy weapons anyway. Tbh, that might not have been a bad thing though. it IS supposed to smash down fortress walls and the like after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebon Hand Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 I used one in an Apoc game. I parked it near the center of the table as far forward as I could deploy it so it wouldn't have to move. It took out a couple Wraithblades before they charged it and did no damage (they had swords, 3 of 5 got in maybe they did a point or two, I don't remember). I then had it fall back and shot at the wrecthed xenos a bit with other units before Castellan Draco charged in and finished the last one with his relic blade. Was it worth it? I think it was. Units in 8th seem to be worth not just the points they can kill but the amount of damage they can tank. The T8 on the Vindicator is pretty decent for the cost, and it gives you a durable line of sight blocker with a soft anti heavy infantry/anti vehicle capability. I say soft because you don't take it for the offense, you take it for a cheap durable tank that looks scary. Ok, well not THAT cheap. It's 160 base bones, very similar to a Predator Destructor at 171. But that's at T8, with the same 11 wounds, which is not for nothing against common weapons like auto cannons which wound it on 5s and missiles which wound it on 4s. I don't think it's winning any awards for most competitive unit but it's not unusable as long as you don't expect it to wipe units out on its own. I do think it could stand to get a point reduction or a boost in offense. Don't hesitate to give it a storm bolter and Hunter killer missile for just a little now punch. Those vehicle upgrades are awesome now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extropian Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 At 11 points less than a Predator Destructor, i think it's ok. Less damage output against T7 or below, but tougher. Against t8 or T-9 it has comparable damage, and is far superior against T10+ (rare as that is). At the same time the extra point of toughness makes it a lot more survivable than it seems (bolters/S4 wounds on 6's instead of 5's, missiles on 4's instead of 3's, autocannons/plasma on 5's instead of 4's). Obviously against infantry the predator poops all over it though. It's....alright. I think you need to make the most of it being a brick though, since the actual damage output isnt stellar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 For 23 more points you can have a Deimos Vindicator Laser Destroyer. Think I'd rather have one of those :-P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extropian Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 For 23 more points you can have a Deimos Vindicator Laser Destroyer. Think I'd rather have one of those :-P Well....yes. Can't argue with that one, it's pretty clearly superior! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 Convert them up guys. The Vindicator Destroyer is a AAA unit :-D (I already have two lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extropian Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 I have 1. Got it ages ago since it is just really great looking. The fact that it's also fantastic now has rewarded my "aesthetics first" approach :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 Consensus so far: Vindicators are okay. The Laser Destroyer is far better at anti-not-infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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