Space Wolves Chapter Tactics

[Fang_Guard23]

thoughts:

 

Acute sense:

when charged space wolves hit at (5+) when in overwatch

 

Counter charge:

 

When charged spacewolves may declaire counter charge and instead of overwatch fire they may declare a charge, if successful they may attack first.

 

----------------------

 

 

 

 

Very true. Before any of the SM strategems were released it was my thought that we may simply get a discounted counter offensive stratagem.

#2 Acute senses

Enemy does not gain bonus for being in cover

 

I would rather nix Acute Senses and get Company dependent traits. But with how the Index is laid out I don't think we will. They would need to add faction key words for the Company. They may do it. Depends if they want to treat us just like another Space Marine Chapter or our own army. They have the groundwork from Warzone Fenris. Do it GW.

 

Stratagem: Some outflank mechanic. They've been trying to make us an outflanking army.

Stratagem: Counter Offensive 1 CP.

Stratagem: Hopefully something that allows a first turn charge.

 

Relics: Probably a mix of CoF and SW books from last edition.

 

 

I also like this idea for acute senses.

 

 

Strategem: Operating Behind Enemy Lines

- we may deploy our scouts, fenrisian wolves from any edge of the board.

 

Strategem: Heroes from fenris

- spend 1 (not named)-2 CP (named) to add an additional HQ unit to your army

stratagem: Heroes of Fenris, you can add an additional saga/warlord trait to a character

[Kasper_Hawser]

I wonder if army wide advance and charge for a 2 CP strategem is too much?

 

Another chapter tactic as previously noted is bonuses to advance rules, although I'm not a big fan of this as we still can't charge unless its wulfen.

[Fang_Guard23]

a stratagem  that I think would make the wolves broken and unbalanced would have to be the Claws of Russ, drop pods come in at the beginning of the turn instead of at the end.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

a stratagem  that I think would make the wolves broken and unbalanced would have to be the Claws of Russ, drop pods come in at the beginning of the turn instead of at the end.

Probably will give a stratagem to reroll charge when coming from drop pod or something like that. We are going to get 26 stratagems. They're going to have to get creative.

 

I could definitely see something like Sagaborn: 1CP pick an additional warlord trait for your warlord.

[Jarl Caldersson]

I like the idea of a stratagem that lets use run+charge or run twice. Gives us a way to move up the field quickly without relying on other chapters ways to move like bikes (White Scars), jump packs (Blood Angels) or drop pods (UM?).

 

Not sure how exactly how fluffy 30k SW tactics were, but from what little I know it doesn't look like we used bikes, jump packs, vehicles, or drop pod as a main way to move but simple charged in. Would like to see that on the table top but if you moved up the field without anything you would get chewed up by ranged firepower.

[Kasper_Hawser]

A bit off topic, but I don't think we should try to use 30K wolves as a basis for our 40K. They were very different animals (no pun intended), than 40K, even more melee oriented but not so flexible in terms of speed and firepower, whereas in 40K, we're not lacking in heavy equipment thanks to Long Fangs and gunships, or speed in terms of Thunderwolves and crazy claw packs.

 

But yes, 30K was very aggressive but not fast, at least in terms of equipment, only on foot. For some reason, they disdained bikes and packs, most of their characters don't even have the option of taking them, which is very detrimental considering riding Thunderwolves weren't a thing yet.

 

Russ spent a number of centuries changing the Vlka Fenryka from the blood thirsty crazy barbarians like techno warriors, to slightly more charismatic blood thirsty crazy barbarians. Took another 10,000 years before their reputation changed from feared and despised to loved and respected (from most quarters anyway)

 

Back to topic, I wonder if we should try for some kind of shooting bonus now that everyone can shoot and charge with any weapon. In a way, allowing to advance and charge is a boost to both shooting and charging.

[Jarl Caldersson]

they have been sticking to what the strength of each chapter. Shooting isn't exactly the SW strength, but rather melee is.

[Araith]

To some extent, but the core of the wolves' troops has always been characterized by a combination of melee and short ranged firepower.  That's always been our flavour of melee strength, where other 'melee chapters' have similarly had different flavours.

[Kasper_Hawser]

To some extent, but the core of the wolves' troops has always been characterized by a combination of melee and short ranged firepower.  That's always been our flavour of melee strength, where other 'melee chapters' have similarly had different flavours.

 

Indeed. personally I always liked the double special weapon flexibility of our "tacticals" rather than the "1 special weapon 1 heavy weapon". I never played vanilla marines but never saw a reason to put one heavy weapon in a MSU. Ironically, this makes Grey Hunters more flexible than the so called Codex marines

[CCE1981]

Does this sound Space Wolfie?

Characters get heroic intervention of 6"

Units heroic intervention at 3"

If a unit does a heroic intervention it counts as charging

Starting with player who's turn it is alternate bwtween charging units.

[Jarl Caldersson]

Doesnt ragnar do this already? Would make him rather redundant if so.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Frankly I haven't had a chance to use Heroic Intervention yet. What are your thoughts?

[Jarl Caldersson]

I think these are mostly rumored for the CSM but some additional ideas for what we could get. These are taken from Facebook.

 

 

 

Night lord trait is -1 ld for each NL unit within 6 of an enemy. This stacks to a min of ld 1 for the enemy.

Word bearers is re roll failed moral dice.
emperors children is always strike first. (confirmed)
black legion is +1 ld and can always advance and shoot if i see it right - or gain bonuses or no modifiers to advancing and shooting.
Iron warriors - it think its about negating cover or gaining better cover when in cover 
alpha legion - scout ability ( like deepstrikes_ but 12 inches away from enemy units. 
rengade chapters!!! - cant read it 
world eaters - belive it says units in close combat are imune to moral.

 

another person posts this though.

iron warriors - same as imperial fists but re roll failed to wound against buildings
renegade chapters advance and still charge in the same turn
black legion +1 leadership and can shoot rapid fire weapons as assault weapons if they advance *example rapid fire 2 becomes assault 2*
World eaters +1 attack on the charge
Night lords -1 leadership to units in range of units with this legion trait DOES stack to a max of Leadership 1
Alpha legion -1 to hit if they are more than 12" away
word bearers re roll failed morale

 

 

Confirmed: Emperors Children always  fight first (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/31/legion-focus-emperors-children/)

 

 

Some of these are pretty powerful for the SW's. Maybe someone with more years in the game can link these traits to previous traits in the past?

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Does this sound Space Wolfie?

Characters get heroic intervention of 6"

Units heroic intervention at 3"

If a unit does a heroic intervention it counts as charging

Starting with player who's turn it is alternate bwtween charging units.

Yeah. I could see us getting something like this. Its like an 8th edition equivalent to the Company benefits we got from CotW.

 

Doesnt ragnar do this already? Would make him rather redundant if so.

He could get a rules change when the codex drops.

[Deadnaughty]

So, with the Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists having the same trait I look forward to seeing the World Eater one. It will likely give strong hints to what the Space Wolf trait will be.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

That or we will be similar to the emperor's children one as that does feel very count attack like, and now we know there will be overlap, maybe not within major factions (i.e. imperium or chaos) but evidently across them. The world eaters one may go to the blood angels as they are the other cc marines. Or maybe tgere will be some mix and match. Regardless I'm glad chaos now has a chapter tactics equivalent and I think they will give clues to our future for sure.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

I could see us or BA getting similar to the WE trait.

 

If we got the Emps Children trait we would be over-powered. Insanely over-powered. Wulfen or TWC always striking first would be insane.

 

I just hope we don't get something lame like Imperial fists or watered down but similar to other Tactics/traits.

 

Edit: Maybe not so insane because if it is like the Slaanesh Demon thing we still alternate when we get charged. So it maybe wouldn't be too op. It would be a really good trait to have though.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Wolf Guard Dan

[Brother Hellion]

Recently I've seen first hand the new SM codex and it differs a bit from the last edition which we were expecting. Formations are gone. Replaced by a set of abilities called stratgems which number to around 20. Each one costs a number of command points to spend and grants specific abilities to either act out of turn, re-rolls, extended ranges, grant outflank to specific units, etc. Either affecting a specific unit, phase or general army.

 

Chapter tactics, however, affect all the army, and are constantly active during all the phases. Salamanders will always be able to reroll one weapons to hit and to wound per unit. Raven guard infantry will always have a -1 hit from enemies trying to target them from 12 inches away. White scars can disengage and charge again. Ultrasmurfs have +1 to leadership.

 

So with that in mind our codex will be similar in design but with some minor tweaks to reflect our fluff. The stragetums will be more agressive such as extending our movements or re rolls to our charges. The chapter tactics might be something along the line of turning us into an outflanking army.

[Jarl Caldersson]

Just thinking about the WE +1attack on the charge.

 

Arjac+Wolf Guard+WE rule means that we are making 4 attacks per WG (5 on WGPL). Thats 41 attack hitting on 3+, re-rolling 1's.

[Indefragable]

Coming a bit late to this thread (train from Baal was delayed due to some sort of bug problem), but it mirrors what's being discussed in the BA and DA rooms as well.

 

The question I would pose--in a friendly and let's figure this out together way--is what do you think the SW Chapter Tactic/equivalent should be, especially when compared to BA, DA, and Codex SM Chapters?

 

As far as I have read from the leaks, GK do not have a unique CT?

[Kasper_Hawser]

Coming a bit late to this thread (train from Baal was delayed due to some sort of bug problem), but it mirrors what's being discussed in the BA and DA rooms as well.

 

The question I would pose--in a friendly and let's figure this out together way--is what do you think the SW Chapter Tactic/equivalent should be, especially when compared to BA, DA, and Codex SM Chapters?

 

As far as I have read from the leaks, GK do not have a unique CT?

 

Greetings brother. Grab a tankard of Mjord and try not to puke out of your pretty face, hair and fangs during the discussion.

 

After looking at SM Chapter Tactics as well as Chaos Legion tactics, so far I think most are quite simplistic and are not aimed to change the game significantly. Of course there are a few that seems a bit too efffective, for example the Salamanders reroll one to wound and hit per unit vs the Iron Hands save of 6+ against unsaved wounds. Or the Night Lords very damanging -1 leadership per unit to a maximum of -3 vs the Word Bearers simple reroll of morale.

 

Where the fluff and flavour REALLY comes to fore I think, are the strategems. A lot of the old cheese from 7th Ed, such as using a Chapter Master, outfitting him with relics to become Smash:cusser now costs CP instead. Likewise to Orbital bombardment, Flakk missiles, upgrading Thunderfire cannons to be more effective, Imperial Fists getting more bolter shots, etc.

 

Taking into this consideration, I guess having the old counter attack won't be so bad, as long as the strategems increase our mobility, short range firepower and charge strengths.

 

So without going for over complex chapter tactics, and bearing in mind that many CSM Legion traits nearly mirror the Loyalist Chapter tactics, I propose the following:

 

Space Wolves Chapter tactic:

Option 1: + 1 attack on charge (simple but effective, also mirrors the World Eaters since none of the other chapter tactics are like it.

Option 2: Advance and charge. (I wanted this earlier but thought it was unfair, until I saw the Renegade Legions trait which is that. Wulfen will still maintain their niche as better assault units due to rerolling charges and better movement)

Option 3: Attack first regardless of charge (again i originally thought this was overpowering but since the Emperor's Children has it, we may as well wish for it.)

 

Notice Option 1-3 are "mirrors" of the Traitor Legions, which I originally thought were too unfair or powerful compared to the other chapter tactics, until I saw the CSM leaks. Nevertheless, I would propose another Option 4 to be more unique rather than just "mirroring" existing traits.

 

Option 4: Infantry units can deploy from table edges with the usual 9" away from enemy restriction. Basically give us the outflank rule we used to have in 7th edition, only now much more useful now that we're not forbidden to charge. This will epitomise the cunning of the Wolves and also maximise the short range fire, being able to pop up all over the board edges to introduce a melta in the butt. Not as damaging as before but will keep those characters hiding behind on their toes.

 

On the other hand this sounds a bit complex so might be a strategem instead, the ability to outflank units. I really would love to outflank Bjorn and his merry dreads armed with Hellfrost cannons.

 

In regards to Blood Angels:

Option 1: + 1 to wound on charge to represent furious charge in current edition.

Option 2: treat all rapid fire as assault weapons (like the Black Legion)

 

For Strategem, DEATH FROM THE SKIES! Maybe allow Jump Pack units to have better movement than current.

[Hotfuzz]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

 

 

The emperor's children ability seems closest to the old counter attack and would be powerful but I would like something unique. How about one of these?

 

Scatter the herd:

 

Units that fall back from combat with a space wolves take d3 mortal wounds. Units with fly or vehicle keyword take one mortal wound instead of d3.

 

I like this because it forces the enemy to make a choice, yes you can fall back but it will cost you.

 

We are pack:

 

Add plus two to the charge range when charging units already engaged with a friendly space wolves unit.

 

Acute senses:

 

Units deploying from reinforcements must add one to the distance they deploy from a space wolves unit.

[Indefragable]

 

 

Coming a bit late to this thread (train from Baal was delayed due to some sort of bug problem), but it mirrors what's being discussed in the BA and DA rooms as well.

 

The question I would pose--in a friendly and let's figure this out together way--is what do you think the SW Chapter Tactic/equivalent should be, especially when compared to BA, DA, and Codex SM Chapters?

 

As far as I have read from the leaks, GK do not have a unique CT?

Greetings brother. Grab a tankard of Mjord and try not to puke out of your pretty face, hair and fangs during the discussion.

 

After looking at SM Chapter Tactics as well as Chaos Legion tactics, so far I think most are quite simplistic and are not aimed to change the game significantly. Of course there are a few that seems a bit too efffective, for example the Salamanders reroll one to wound and hit per unit vs the Iron Hands save of 6+ against unsaved wounds. Or the Night Lords very damanging -1 leadership per unit to a maximum of -3 vs the Word Bearers simple reroll of morale.

 

Where the fluff and flavour REALLY comes to fore I think, are the strategems. A lot of the old cheese from 7th Ed, such as using a Chapter Master, outfitting him with relics to become Smash:cusser now costs CP instead. Likewise to Orbital bombardment, Flakk missiles, upgrading Thunderfire cannons to be more effective, Imperial Fists getting more bolter shots, etc.

 

Taking into this consideration, I guess having the old counter attack won't be so bad, as long as the strategems increase our mobility, short range firepower and charge strengths.

 

So without going for over complex chapter tactics, and bearing in mind that many CSM Legion traits nearly mirror the Loyalist Chapter tactics, I propose the following:

 

Space Wolves Chapter tactic:

Option 1: + 1 attack on charge (simple but effective, also mirrors the World Eaters since none of the other chapter tactics are like it.

Option 2: Advance and charge. (I wanted this earlier but thought it was unfair, until I saw the Renegade Legions trait which is that. Wulfen will still maintain their niche as better assault units due to rerolling charges and better movement)

Option 3: Attack first regardless of charge (again i originally thought this was overpowering but since the Emperor's Children has it, we may as well wish for it.)

 

Notice Option 1-3 are "mirrors" of the Traitor Legions, which I originally thought were too unfair or powerful compared to the other chapter tactics, until I saw the CSM leaks. Nevertheless, I would propose another Option 4 to be more unique rather than just "mirroring" existing traits.

 

Option 4: Infantry units can deploy from table edges with the usual 9" away from enemy restriction. Basically give us the outflank rule we used to have in 7th edition, only now much more useful now that we're not forbidden to charge. This will epitomise the cunning of the Wolves and also maximise the short range fire, being able to pop up all over the board edges to introduce a melta in the butt. Not as damaging as before but will keep those characters hiding behind on their toes.

 

On the other hand this sounds a bit complex so might be a strategem instead, the ability to outflank units. I really would love to outflank Bjorn and his merry dreads armed with Hellfrost cannons.

 

In regards to Blood Angels:

Option 1: + 1 to wound on charge to represent furious charge in current edition.

Option 2: treat all rapid fire as assault weapons (like the Black Legion)

 

For Strategem, DEATH FROM THE SKIES! Maybe allow Jump Pack units to have better movement than current.

Good reply. We're having similar debates on Baal. It gets tricky since there has been so much crossover between SW and BA in the past few years. I.e. Wulfen are Death Company dialed to 11, or vice versa depending on your perspective and so on. Both forces have been "the" melee force of the Astartes at different points and so on.

 

Without coming off pessimistic for my own red dudes, I think SW are in a good spot. SW have a clearly defined theme, love it or hate it, and enough unique units (even Grey Hunters are different enough to have an edge) that whatever you get will leave you better off.

 

On the other hand, GW doesn't seem to know what they want BA to be. We're half Red Marines and half snowflakes, without really the competitive benefits of either at the moment.

 

I think one way or another, our fates are entwined and I would love to see both forces be stompy in their own ways.

[Jarl Caldersson]

 

 

Coming a bit late to this thread (train from Baal was delayed due to some sort of bug problem), but it mirrors what's being discussed in the BA and DA rooms as well.

 

The question I would pose--in a friendly and let's figure this out together way--is what do you think the SW Chapter Tactic/equivalent should be, especially when compared to BA, DA, and Codex SM Chapters?

 

As far as I have read from the leaks, GK do not have a unique CT?

Greetings brother. Grab a tankard of Mjord and try not to puke out of your pretty face, hair and fangs during the discussion.

 

After looking at SM Chapter Tactics as well as Chaos Legion tactics, so far I think most are quite simplistic and are not aimed to change the game significantly. Of course there are a few that seems a bit too efffective, for example the Salamanders reroll one to wound and hit per unit vs the Iron Hands save of 6+ against unsaved wounds. Or the Night Lords very damanging -1 leadership per unit to a maximum of -3 vs the Word Bearers simple reroll of morale.

 

Where the fluff and flavour REALLY comes to fore I think, are the strategems. A lot of the old cheese from 7th Ed, such as using a Chapter Master, outfitting him with relics to become Smash:cusser now costs CP instead. Likewise to Orbital bombardment, Flakk missiles, upgrading Thunderfire cannons to be more effective, Imperial Fists getting more bolter shots, etc.

 

Taking into this consideration, I guess having the old counter attack won't be so bad, as long as the strategems increase our mobility, short range firepower and charge strengths.

 

So without going for over complex chapter tactics, and bearing in mind that many CSM Legion traits nearly mirror the Loyalist Chapter tactics, I propose the following:

 

Space Wolves Chapter tactic:

Option 1: + 1 attack on charge (simple but effective, also mirrors the World Eaters since none of the other chapter tactics are like it.

Option 2: Advance and charge. (I wanted this earlier but thought it was unfair, until I saw the Renegade Legions trait which is that. Wulfen will still maintain their niche as better assault units due to rerolling charges and better movement)

Option 3: Attack first regardless of charge (again i originally thought this was overpowering but since the Emperor's Children has it, we may as well wish for it.)

 

Notice Option 1-3 are "mirrors" of the Traitor Legions, which I originally thought were too unfair or powerful compared to the other chapter tactics, until I saw the CSM leaks. Nevertheless, I would propose another Option 4 to be more unique rather than just "mirroring" existing traits.

 

Option 4: Infantry units can deploy from table edges with the usual 9" away from enemy restriction. Basically give us the outflank rule we used to have in 7th edition, only now much more useful now that we're not forbidden to charge. This will epitomise the cunning of the Wolves and also maximise the short range fire, being able to pop up all over the board edges to introduce a melta in the butt. Not as damaging as before but will keep those characters hiding behind on their toes.

 

On the other hand this sounds a bit complex so might be a strategem instead, the ability to outflank units. I really would love to outflank Bjorn and his merry dreads armed with Hellfrost cannons.

 

In regards to Blood Angels:

Option 1: + 1 to wound on charge to represent furious charge in current edition.

Option 2: treat all rapid fire as assault weapons (like the Black Legion)

 

For Strategem, DEATH FROM THE SKIES! Maybe allow Jump Pack units to have better movement than current.

Good reply. We're having similar debates on Baal. It gets tricky since there has been so much crossover between SW and BA in the past few years. I.e. Wulfen are Death Company dialed to 11, or vice versa depending on your perspective and so on. Both forces have been "the" melee force of the Astartes at different points and so on.

 

Without coming off pessimistic for my own red dudes, I think SW are in a good spot. SW have a clearly defined theme, love it or hate it, and enough unique units (even Grey Hunters are different enough to have an edge) that whatever you get will leave you better off.

 

On the other hand, GW doesn't seem to know what they want BA to be. We're half Red Marines and half snowflakes, without really the competitive benefits of either at the moment.

 

I think one way or another, our fates are entwined and I would love to see both forces be stompy in their own ways.

 

 

 

From my reading of the lore, and my opinion. Yes BA and SW both are "the melee marines", but in their own way. BA are more up-front about their tactics using jump packs to quickly get to their enemy, while the SW's are more about flanking and semi-ambushing their enemies. Yes their paths cross a lot especially since SW's have 12 great companies that seem to use every one elses tactics (Bloodhowls were BA's, Ironwolves were Iron Hands, Blackmanes were UM). Wolves seem to outflank their enemy more using their prenatural senses.

 

BA's are caught-up with the codex, they must appear to be 100% compliant with the Codex and maintain their honorable image while hiding their death company. SW's do not worry about that and already appear as barbarians and no reason to even appear to be codex compliant. Maybe with the new lore of the Wulfen being accepted we may see the Red Thirst/Black Rage more accepted and the BA's therefore less codex-compliant.

[Kasper_Hawser]

@ Indefragable - Personally I don't like the theme that GW takes with the Space Wolves. I'll spare you the details, but for the past few years, I felt like I was being forced into being a ferocious furry instead of a manly viking. I'm pretty sure before the atrocious Thunderwolf Cavalry came about, Space Wolves were seen as space vikings instead of closet furries.

 

Now I can't even show myself in my meta without at least one furry reference pointed at me, despite the fact I almost refuse to use Thunderwolf Cavalry in 99% of my games. the Wulfen are only slightly more palatable for me as in my mind, they are still marines, Space Wolves struggling with their affliction, as opposed to totally giving into uncontrollable blood lust like the damn Khorne Berserkers or, if I may say so, the Death Company, though at least they still listen to the Chaplain most of the time.

 

I do think the GW knows what they want with the theme of Blood Angels, which is strike hard and strike fast, only with close combat weapons and jump packs as opposed to the shootiness of the White Scars and DA Ravenwing. Now its just a matter of adapting the theme to 8th. which I think is adequately and simple represented by +1 to wound. This means essentially that there is no situation you will be wounding on 6s, even T8 will be wounded on 5s to represent your BURST strength in close combat.

 

So for Space Wolves, we need something along the cunning lines, which is why I thought of the old Outflank rule except make it available to all troops. Otherwise, may as well mirror the Traitor Legion traits i mentioned earlier.