Chapter Focus: Salamanders

[Custodian Athiair]

My main response to this is "meh". Compared to the "oh wow" that UM, RG and WAS have gotten.

 

Rerolls are nice and all, but it's not a "tactic". Chapter Tactics should be about how the chapter fights, not the wargear they get. We've seen UM get their tactical fluidity, the RG get hide in shadows, and WS get their hit, run and hit again.

 

Salamanders fighting style is not "oh we're lucky we built something properly so it didn't miss". It's "we're gonna get engaged in a fire fight where we can see the whites of your eyes, and then proceed to melt said eyes"

 

Every edition I've felt let down by GW with Salamanders "tactics" and personally feel let down again.

 

 

 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying it's a bad rule, I just feel it doesn't scream "Salamanders fighting style to me".

[Andrés Pacheco]

Yea, I just checked the Battle Primer with regard to rerolls, and nothing says that you have to keep the result of the reroll which if we go by the past, the rule itself would have to say that you have to keep the result, even if worse. That means a Salamander rerolling to wound with a weapon that does multiple wounds can always reroll for more wounds and keep the original if the reroll is worse.

I think it's a reroll to see if the hit wounds, rather than a reroll on the damage of a multi-damage weapon.

 

But also....

 

 

YEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!

EDIT: @Custodian Athiair wait to see what stratagem they get, they seem to work nicely together of the ones we know. Edited July 18, 2017 by Andrés Pacheco

[Irbis]

Yea, I just checked the Battle Primer with regard to rerolls, and nothing says that you have to keep the result of the reroll which if we go by the past, the rule itself would have to say that you have to keep the result, even if worse.  That means a Salamander rerolling to wound with a weapon that does multiple wounds can always reroll for more wounds and keep the original if the reroll is worse.

 

I am pretty sure picking up the die and re-rolling means first roll doesn't exist anymore and is null and void. If they wanted you to potentially keep it they would mention this.

[Custodian Athiair]

@Andres Pacheco

 

I'm sure there will be synergy and nice combos to be exploited. But I'm mainly getting on that we haven't been given a chapter "tactic" (would italicise, but mobile).

 

This rule doesn't let me play like the Salamanders would engage in warfare, it's just a nice bonus. Okay very nice when you think about game impact.

 

But what this rule does is allow gunline to be more damaging, and combats to be more bloody.

So Devestators and Assault Marines...

 

But Salamanders main thing (in my opinion) is Tactical Marines bringing burning retribution to the enemy up close.

 

 

 

I dunno, I'm not in the majority it seems, and that's fine if people like it great! Just to me it feels like minimal effort has gone in, and it's not encouraging me to play like the Sallies should. Unlike Scars or RG

Edited July 18, 2017 by Custodian Athiair

[Irbis]

I'm sure there will be synergy and nice combos to be exploited. But I'm mainly getting on that we haven't been given a chapter "tactic" (would italicise, but mobile).

 

Why not? Using higher quality gear to launch more devastating attacks than other chapters can do sure sounds like a tactic to me. It might not be as flashy as one trick pony like bikes/jump packs all the time, but it works. Indeed, it could be massive as you can go much lighter with characters using Sallies. Take your typical combat squad with plasma/combi - you can overload them all the time even without captain as you're unlikely to roll more than one 1 with four shots allowing you to ignore gets hot 99% of time...

[autek mor]

i agree that its not really fluffy as things stand. maybe when we get more info we will see more flame related stuff.

[Archaeinox]

As a person who uses Command Re-rolls a lot, I think this CT is very good... That's pretty much what it is. Time will tell

[God-Potato of Mankind]

 

 

Even without seeing stratagems, this is a legit tactic. I notice that it doesn't say you have to keep the result of the reroll if worse than original. Is that a core rule or could a Sally player roll like 3 wounds, choose to reroll for more, but if he gets less, they can just keep the original 3? If they can choose to disregard reroll this just got even better.

 

I'm pretty sure if you re-roll a dice the new result is final and overwrites the previous.

 

Yea, I just checked the Battle Primer with regard to rerolls, and nothing says that you have to keep the result of the reroll which if we go by the past, the rule itself would have to say that you have to keep the result, even if worse.  That means a Salamander rerolling to wound with a weapon that does multiple wounds can always reroll for more wounds and keep the original if the reroll is worse.

 

 

How have you got to that?

 

It says re-roll failed wound rolls. The roll is to determine if you wound, the amount of damage is a separate roll unaffected by this. 

 

I'm on the fence with this. It doesn't feel as immediately potent as the Raven Guard, Scars, Fist or Ultrasmurf ones but at the same time everything is it's own unit. It will favour bringing at least one high strength weapon (combi-melta/plasma and a hammer on EVERY sarge/character?) per unit. 

 

For example, a lascannon razorback with a tactical squad toting a lascannon/melta will benefit more than an assault cannon razorback with a flamer toting tactical squad. It's invalidated by Vulkan's presence but at least you don't get the restriction of a 6 inch bubble. 

 

Harrumph...it doesnt help much against hordes (you're talking at minimum an extra kill...in a squad likely to be 20 strong?) but it helps against elites and mechanised armies. Whereas the other Chapter tactics help against everything . That part seems blerg. 

Also, bring on Salamanders being the MSU Chapter I guess?

Edited July 18, 2017 by God-Potato of Mankind

[Andrés Pacheco]

But Salamanders main thing (in my opinion) is Tactical Marines bringing burning retribution to the enemy up close.

 

Each to their own, for sure, but I personally think this rule is perfect for tac squads, who only have a single heavy weapon. Even better if it's single shot, like a multi melta. Twin linked mobile multi melta in all your tac squads, that rerolls to wound. Awesome. I'm assuming you can use the to hit for a melta, and the to wound for an auto-hitting flamer, if you want to spread the fluff love.

 

In fact, I really like that it works with every type of build, rather than encouraging a certain play style.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

 

But Salamanders main thing (in my opinion) is Tactical Marines bringing burning retribution to the enemy up close.

Each to their own, for sure, but I personally think this rule is perfect for tac squads, who only have a single heavy weapon. Even better if it's single shot, like a multi melta. Twin linked mobile multi melta in all your tac squads, that rerolls to wound. Awesome. I'm assuming you can use the to hit for a melta, and the to wound for an auto-hitting flamer, if you want to spread the fluff love.

 

In fact, I really like that it works with every type of build, rather than encouraging a certain play style.

 

 

I don't know why you'd waste a re-roll to wound on the flamer over a multi-melta, I really don't, if you're targeting infantry you're still only killing one model, but it's likely you'll be rerolling a 2+ to wound if you re-roll the melta. 

[Andrés Pacheco]

 

I don't know why you'd waste a re-roll to wound on the flamer over a multi-melta, I really don't, if you're targeting infantry you're still only killing one model, but it's likely you'll be rerolling a 2+ to wound if you re-roll the melta.

 

You're absolutely right in that scenario, I was more trying to offer an idea to those who felt that flamers were fluffier and didn't get any love. Of course, you don't have to declare which weapon is getting the reroll, so you can roll wound for the melta first, and probably still have it to use on the flamer.

 

It's a Primarch-level buff, which is quite cool.

[Custodian Athiair]

Additional point, it is possible to get this "chapter tactic" (admitably by using points up), or something akin to it with Captain/Lieutenant bubbles.

 

So doesn't feel that unique to us. Again looking at others where there is no way to get charge/shoot after fall back, for example.

 

I realise I'm complaining a lot, but this has been on my mind since 6th Ed that Sallies have always felt like a job half done by GW (again to me, I don't speak for every player)

[God-Potato of Mankind]

Additional point, it is possible to get this "chapter tactic" (admitably by using points up), or something akin to it with Captain/Lieutenant bubbles.

 

So doesn't feel that unique to us. Again looking at others where there is no way to get charge/shoot after fall back, for example.

 

I realise I'm complaining a lot, but this has been on my mind since 6th Ed that Sallies have always felt like a job half done by GW (again to me, I don't speak for every player)

 

I agree completely. It's meh at best, at least it is useful. It's like 7ed, we get rules but they feel like an afterthought. They're nice to haves, they're not awesome as heck.

 

But yeah...other armies get stuff they can't otherwise get. What do we get? Something Vulkan gives in a 6 inch bubble and other HQs provide a variant of anyway? Lame. 

Edited July 18, 2017 by God-Potato of Mankind

[Grimtooth]

 

 

 

Yea, I just checked the Battle Primer with regard to rerolls, and nothing says that you have to keep the result of the reroll which if we go by the past, the rule itself would have to say that you have to keep the result, even if worse. That means a Salamander rerolling to wound with a weapon that does multiple wounds can always reroll for more wounds and keep the original if the reroll is worse.

I am pretty sure picking up the die and re-rolling means first roll doesn't exist anymore and is null and void. If they wanted you to potentially keep it they would mention this.

Not how it was written in the past and how the reroll is written now. But a moot point since the rule only allows failed rolls to be rerolled. So if I do one wound I didn't fail and therefore cannot reroll to try and get more wounds.

[CaptainMarsh]

I like it a lot. Each of these re-rolls is a free CP. Potentially you are looking at in effect 12+ free CP for re-rolls a turn- just for shooting.

Edited July 18, 2017 by CaptainMarsh

[Andrés Pacheco]

It's definitely situationally weaker than a character bubble, and I completely get how its not as unique as some of the others. It seems to favour units with a single decent ranged weapon, and maybe a single decent melee weapon, when it becomes effectively like having a Guilliman-level buff for those weapons.

 

It gives a good reason to use tac squads, which will provide more CPs too. If the Salamander strategem is any good, that might be useful. It also means we're not as stuck with needing captain/Lieutenant buffs from our HQ. Do we know yet if the main chapters are getting their own psychic lists?

[Custodian Athiair]

It's definitely situationally weaker than a character bubble, and I completely get how its not as unique as some of the others. It seems to favour units with a single decent ranged weapon, and maybe a single decent melee weapon, when it becomes effectively like having a Guilliman-level buff for those weapons.

 

It gives a good reason to use tac squads, which will provide more CPs too. If the Salamander strategem is any good, that might be useful. It also means we're not as stuck with needing captain/Lieutenant buffs from our HQ. Do we know yet if the main chapters are getting their own psychic lists?

 

I agree with your point about CP, our "tactic" allows a massive saving in CP usage to make stuff hit. Which can then be used elsewhere. But how awesome this is depends on what our Strategem is. We will have to wait and see.

 

Anybody know what the release order is for the community pages?

[Irbis]

 

But yeah...other armies get stuff they can't otherwise get. What do we get? Something Vulkan gives in a 6 inch bubble and other HQs provide a variant of anyway? Lame.

 

Wrong. Not only HQs have weaker versions of this (1s vs fails), you pay for each hundred pts minimum. This means for every HQ + unit opponent brings, you get to field two units instead. And take cheaper librarians instead of captains, since you don't need to their auras. If you think basically fielding minimum 200+ points of units more than enemy has is meh, I am sorry, I can't help you. Other chapters need to build specific armies to benefit of their tactics. Sallies can do whatever they want, it works with everything they have, while at the same time promoting use of weapons they love in fluff without being obnoxious about it or pigeon-holing you into two specific weapons...

 

Also, it's not just four free re-rolls per turn. It says when you shoot - so it counts in overwatch, when shooting pistols in melee, really, it's insanely versatile.

[Charlo]

 

 

Even without seeing stratagems, this is a legit tactic. I notice that it doesn't say you have to keep the result of the reroll if worse than original. Is that a core rule or could a Sally player roll like 3 wounds, choose to reroll for more, but if he gets less, they can just keep the original 3? If they can choose to disregard reroll this just got even better.

 

I'm pretty sure if you re-roll a dice the new result is final and overwrites the previous.

 

Yea, I just checked the Battle Primer with regard to rerolls, and nothing says that you have to keep the result of the reroll which if we go by the past, the rule itself would have to say that you have to keep the result, even if worse.  That means a Salamander rerolling to wound with a weapon that does multiple wounds can always reroll for more wounds and keep the original if the reroll is worse.

 

That is a damage roll, not a "To Wound" roll my friend!

 

Also I'm sorry, but when you re-roll a dice you do not get to keep the old result unless it would say so, you have effectively deleted the previous result from existence if you re-roll that dice.

[Custodian Athiair]

 

 

But yeah...other armies get stuff they can't otherwise get. What do we get? Something Vulkan gives in a 6 inch bubble and other HQs provide a variant of anyway? Lame.

 

Wrong. Not only HQs have weaker versions of this (1s vs fails), you pay for each hundred pts minimum. This means for every HQ + unit opponent brings, you get to field two units instead. And take cheaper librarians instead of captains, since you don't need to their auras. If you think basically fielding minimum 200+ points of units more than enemy has is meh, I am sorry, I can't help you. Other chapters need to build specific armies to benefit of their tactics. Sallies can do whatever they want, it works with everything they have, while at the same time promoting use of weapons they love in fluff without being obnoxious about it or pigeon-holing you into two specific weapons...

 

Also, it's not just four free re-rolls per turn. It says when you shoot - so it counts in overwatch, when shooting pistols in melee, really, it's insanely versatile.

 

 

While on premise I agree with you, that we now don't need to pay points for it - Brilliant! I have two points to make. One since when were Librarian's cheaper? 

PL 6 compared to PL 5 for Captains...

 

Secondly my main problem is that  - while other armies have to pay for it - it means we don't explicitly have something unique that defines the Salamanders. 

 

I see all the excitement about just how GOOD the rule is in terms of the impact it can have on a game, especially since you've brought up that it now works in over-watch and pistol shooting in combat (since it doesn't mention phases at all, good spot). I just don't see how it lets us play like Salamanders, beyond "oh i've got a shiny gun".

 

I'm nitpicking over fluff rather than rules.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

It's not wrong though - I can't buy a -1 to hit at 12 inches, or fall back and shoot at -1 to hit; or re-rolls to charge. I mean..these are objective facts. I can't access these.

 

Also you still need to build your list, whereas other chapters? They all get their bonuses regardless of situation. You also need to actually bring those heavy and melee weapons. So to make it worthwhile you have to build your army to contain lascannons, fists, hammers, meltas etc. Yet those weapons are crap against hordes, but the other Chapter tactics retain that benefit against all types of army. 

 

It's versatile sure, but I think you're overstating it's power - you still need to roll a 6 and re-rolling a pistol? Unless we get inferno pistols, that's a bit meh at best. Having a slightly more reliable tactical sarge is nice, but would you not prefer the ENTIRE squad falling back and shooting at -4? How the hell do you think ours is anyway comparable to that?!

[Andrés Pacheco]

Other chapters need to build specific armies to benefit of their tactics. Sallies can do whatever they want

This is why it's ace. Sallies just bring all the tricked out gear, however they turn out.

 

Flamer-based stratagem mentioned on warhammer community, so well have to see what that adds.

[Loar]

 

 

Even without seeing stratagems, this is a legit tactic. I notice that it doesn't say you have to keep the result of the reroll if worse than original. Is that a core rule or could a Sally player roll like 3 wounds, choose to reroll for more, but if he gets less, they can just keep the original 3? If they can choose to disregard reroll this just got even better.

 

I'm pretty sure if you re-roll a dice the new result is final and overwrites the previous.

 

Yea, I just checked the Battle Primer with regard to rerolls, and nothing says that you have to keep the result of the reroll which if we go by the past, the rule itself would have to say that you have to keep the result, even if worse.  That means a Salamander rerolling to wound with a weapon that does multiple wounds can always reroll for more wounds and keep the original if the reroll is worse.

 

 

No you really can't.  But you are talking about rolling for damage, rolling to wound is not the same thing, so the point is moot.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

 

Other chapters need to build specific armies to benefit of their tactics. Sallies can do whatever they want

This is why it's ace. Sallies just bring all the tricked out gear, however they turn out.

 

Flamer-based stratagem mentioned on warhammer community, so well have to see what that adds.

 

 

If we can get "free" die re-roll strategems from the Chapter tactics and a stratagem that buffs our flamers, that'll give us the flavour to deal with hordes and would allay my primary concern...

[Spanish_Muffin]

So, just trying to wrap my head around all the possible examples because it simply says "when it shoots or fights", without denoting phase or singular use...

My Turn.

5 Man Tac Squad -

Shoots - Missed a shot REROLL.
Wound - Failed to wound - REROLL

Charge Successfully.

Swing - Missed a swing - REROLL
Wound - Failed to wound - REROLL

Wipe target Out. Turn Ends. 

Opponents Charge that unit. 

Overwatch - Missed a shot - REROLL
Overwatch - Missed a wound - REROLL

They're in melee, we have a guy survive. 

Swing - Missed a swing - REROLL
Wound - Failed to wound - REROLL


So, from the start of my turn, to the start of my next turn, a single unit (in this example) was able to get the equivalent of 8CP's worth of rerolls for free?

Crazytown. 

Edited July 18, 2017 by Spanish_Muffin