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the land raider excelsior and 8th


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#1
aura_enchanted

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so i took my excelsior through its paces today in a match against fellow b&c member redmapa down at my local games workshop. gotta say the excelsior has some mean teeth man. 16 woulds with a 5+ invul is really strong, and with the servo skulls of the rhino primaris you can easily make that model look more like a 20 wound model over the course of a game. the preferred enemy granted to every friendly model within 24" is disgustingly powerful. the indirect damage dealt through re-roll fails of 1 was nutty man i think between the re-rolls of 1 alone he probably accounts for first blood, and 4 more of my victory points indirectly by himself. he turned what would have probably been a dismal loss into a curshing victory with heavy casualties. many a dorn born crusader wished my excelsior wasnt on table today accounting directly for one dead contempor dreadnaught, and indirectly killing a drop pod, an ironclad dreadnaught, and most of two 8 man squads of crusaders. that otherwise would have rushed me down and eaten me alive.

 

the excelsior is super tanky and as a result can actually be effective in melee in a limited capacity, heads over even other land raiders dealing a total of three wounds to a model that he had no business damaging in melee.

 

the primaris raider serves as a nice foil but ultimately i think you will find it hard to justify, once the excelsior does go down the primaris rhino is largely useless, a plasma gun on a large beefy physical structure. but while its alive the primaris feels a lot more justified, so use them in tandem to take down the enemy, dont leave them apart and the excelsior because amazing. i challenge someone to charge an excelsior if dark angels regain their bs5 overwatch from 7th edition. that tank will derp things back on a 4+, with re-roll 1's and i shudder to think that theres a model on earth whole can walk through that much lascannon and grav and not show signs of the beating.

 

i say that despite the excelsiors utility dropping off like a the face of a cliff from 7th edition, and its cost going up exponentially, in games where you can afford to field it, the excelsior can be an incredibly valuable machine to have in your corner, one that commands presence.

 


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#2
Orkinstein

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You can bring some company veterans for extra wounds, may be with an apothecary around. BTW, can overwatch be modified? I thought it always needs 6s to hit...

#3
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You can bring some company veterans for extra wounds, may be with an apothecary around. BTW, can overwatch be modified? I thought it always needs 6s to hit...

the bonus conferred to the units around the land raider excelsior is that it lets you re-roll 1's to hit, not what phase they can be made in, or what kind of attacks. so yes overwatch as a result counts. in addition the primaris rhino confers the data augurs bonus which improves any shooting or melee attacks by the land raider excelsior by +1 effectively making it a 5+ bypassing the normal blocks.

 

where other commanders might have other rulings; in this case  the data augurs rule changes results of the dice you roll not changes the required roll before the dice are thrown into the cup. which is completely different.

 

so if a land raider excelsior is within 24" of the primaris rhino and he elects to overwatch say a contempor dreadnaught as he did in our match i need 6's to hit as normal, but 5's are elevated to a 6, and i get to re-roll 1's effectively making any shots i dish out in overwatch.

 

and the veterans or whatever to obsorb shots doesnt work, hes a vehicle and cannot therefor have others tank damage for him, just as sammael on his land speeder cannot.

 

for those wanting the full army lists here they were as best as i can remember them:

 

2000pts dark angels v black templars

 

both used a single battalion detachment

 

dark angels:

 

hq:

 

land raider excelisor (warlord)

 

rhino primaris

 

troops:

 

1x5 intercessors

1x5 scouts

1x5 tactical marines, 1 missile launcher

 

elite:

 

1x5 deathwing knights, relic bearer (for the memes mainly though redmapa also had guard at one point and was concerned about sanctioned psykers)

1 ven dread, lascannons, storm bolter fist

1 parimaris ancient 

1 imperial space marine

 

heavy:

 

1x5 devestators, 2 lascannon

1 deimos laser tank destroyer

 

flyer:

1 nephilim

 

(as an aside i found the nephilim better but im not sure its still good enough versus its form at the end of 7th edition, i think they have overcome its survivability, but its still too costly to be practical, deploy it early, get its guns working fast, or your not going to see it do much, the think killed like 4 crusaders all game, hardly a good harvest).

 

black templars:

 

chaplain

emperors champion

chaplain dreadnaught (warlord) (lascannons and seismic hammer)

 

troops:

3x8 crusader squads, 1 power fist and melta, 1 thunder hammer & melta, 1 power axe and melta

dedicated rhino for axe team, dedicated drop pods for the other 2 squads

 

elite:

1x5 tartaros terminators, 4 claws, 1 reaper autocannon and power fist

1 contempor dreadnaught (kheres assault cannon and bolter fist)

1 vernable dreadnaught (lascannons and fist with storm bolter)

 

heavy:

1 ironclad dreadnaught ( hurricane bolters, magna grapple, and seige drill??)

 

i learned some things from this battle, the space marine mirror matches allow you to really cut outy transports. my scouts rode the rhino primaris but it was mainly to avoid being picked off by stray fire not to really protect the rhino as again they cant because hes a vehicle. and my opponents election to use lots of transports very much worked against him. my army basically stood there and weathered the howls and fury of the templars as they raced to close the gap on me and got pretty badly beaten, in part to some statistically poor rolling on my opponents part such as failures of reasonable charges (9 inches or less), or his inability to kill opponents with superior weaponry. and he spent 387 points on vehicles that sort of did nothing all game. mobility is not as crucial for these units and with assault from deepstrike and even just foot slogging along side bigger units your opponent can hound on can be totally effective

 

the vehicle hq's if they can take a beating such as bjorn the fellhanded (but not in the case of sableye as much), or monstrous creature commanders like the tyranid hive tyrant will be dangerous this edition to mess with. in the past it was get them into combat crush them in melee or focus them down with heavy ordanance. and i think the effectiveness of that strategy is a little less powerful then it used to be. or at least not being done in the correct way. as it took a titanic effort to drag my raider down. as melta guns, and lascannons, and assault cannons,and powerfists unleashed their wrath upon that tank and she took it like a champion.

 

i think ill be taking the excelsior and rhino more often this edition then i did in 7th, and i think that i will be enjoying using these two in the time between now and our new codex next year. it is my hope that when codex space marines does arrive for us, that the excelsior goes unchanged or goes down in price. that would be a welcome change. as is though i think i found my new commander of choice for the moment and will be retiring my company masters and terminator librarian to the shelf for a time

 

(also as a side note, imperial space marine is kinda terrible, i wont be using that anymore but the ancient is probably going to be in my anti xenos lists)


Edited by aura_enchanted, 23 July 2017 - 02:59 PM.

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#4
o8oo Anarch

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Overwatch is  "...a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model's Balistic Skill or any modifiers." so you can reroll the 1s but 5s don't modify to 6s.


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#5
Punk possum

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I've got an Excelsior/Primarius Rhino. Not had chance to use them in 8th yet. They were pretty good in 7th for the auras they handed out but way too vulnerable, something that 8th has fixed across the board with vehicles. As to the points they are exactly what the same as in 7th 400 for the pair, I like not having to take both (even though as you point out they work best in combination).  I'm glad it still works well I was more than a bit sad when I realised that the rod of command was no longer a thing (especially as that is how I've modelled mine).

Thanks for reporting back on its performance I'm tempted to get mine out of the cabinet and give them a go during the Fate of Konor campaign.   


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#6
aura_enchanted

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I've got an Excelsior/Primarius Rhino. Not had chance to use them in 8th yet. They were pretty good in 7th for the auras they handed out but way too vulnerable, something that 8th has fixed across the board with vehicles. As to the points they are exactly what the same as in 7th 400 for the pair, I like not having to take both (even though as you point out they work best in combination).  I'm glad it still works well I was more than a bit sad when I realised that the rod of command was no longer a thing (especially as that is how I've modelled mine).

Thanks for reporting back on its performance I'm tempted to get mine out of the cabinet and give them a go during the Fate of Konor campaign.   

 

yea it took 3 rounds of black templar contempor dreadnaught smashing it with a power fist, granted it was statistically poor rolling but it still shouldnt have been too different. if i can leave a point of advice, have a way to extend his life. be it a techmarine to fix him, or a rhino primaris to regen health, or maybe a way to negate damage somehow. i dont think the darkshroud is good enough as its only shooting attacks it tries to downplay and thats not really what will kill it unless your opponents tau then i suppose. but maybe theres a world where you can ally in a tech priest domus or even belisarius cawl (though i still think hes a sprocket head teehee.gif )


Edited by aura_enchanted, 24 July 2017 - 02:10 AM.

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#7
Orkinstein

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You can bring some company veterans for extra wounds, may be with an apothecary around. BTW, can overwatch be modified? I thought it always needs 6s to hit...

 

and the veterans or whatever to obsorb shots doesnt work, hes a vehicle and cannot therefor have others tank damage for him, just as sammael on his land speeder cannot.

 

Yes, you can. The company veterans have special rule:

 

Command Squad Bodyguard: Roll a dice each time a friendly <CHAPTER> CHARACTER loses a wound whilst they are within 3" of this unit; on a 2+ a model from this squad can intercept that hit – the character does not lose a wound but this unit suffers a mortal wound.
 
So they can look out sir for Land Raider excelsior and Sammael's land speeder. Because they are all characters.

Edited by Orkinstein, 24 July 2017 - 04:36 AM.


#8
aura_enchanted

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You can bring some company veterans for extra wounds, may be with an apothecary around. BTW, can overwatch be modified? I thought it always needs 6s to hit...

 

and the veterans or whatever to obsorb shots doesnt work, hes a vehicle and cannot therefor have others tank damage for him, just as sammael on his land speeder cannot.

 

Yes, you can. The company veterans have special rule:

 

Command Squad Bodyguard: Roll a dice each time a friendly <CHAPTER> CHARACTER loses a wound whilst they are within 3" of this unit; on a 2+ a model from this squad can intercept that hit – the character does not lose a wound but this unit suffers a mortal wound.
 
So they can look out sir for Land Raider excelsior and Sammael's land speeder. Because they are all characters.

 

very well


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#9
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Ressurect this one as I'm sorting out a Rhino Primaris for my list and it comes with the Excelsior.

I might sell on the Excelsior but I've made a list around what I've got plus the land raider. It's not exactly how I want to play but it'll be an easy win to bring out a force on the table while I'm working on the rest.

Question is... The Excelsior can take a warlord trait, being a character and HQ. It can also take a relic?

? So you could make the Excelsior your warlord;

with stubborn tenacity for. 6+fnp or 5+ if he remained stationary.

Shroud of heroes relic for a -1 to hit

Next to a darksroud he would be -2 to hit, S8, 16W, 2+/5++, 5/6+++

Screen with some company vets to pass wounds onto... If he is engaged in combat he can use the intractable stratagem to fall back and shoot.

Could the Excelsior with codex dark angels be a bit OP?
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#10
Stormxlr

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Ressurect this one as I'm sorting out a Rhino Primaris for my list and it comes with the Excelsior.

I might sell on the Excelsior but I've made a list around what I've got plus the land raider. It's not exactly how I want to play but it'll be an easy win to bring out a force on the table while I'm working on the rest.

Question is... The Excelsior can take a warlord trait, being a character and HQ. It can also take a relic?

? So you could make the Excelsior your warlord;

with stubborn tenacity for. 6+fnp or 5+ if he remained stationary.

Shroud of heroes relic for a -1 to hit

Next to a darksroud he would be -2 to hit, S8, 16W, 2+/5++, 5/6+++

Screen with some company vets to pass wounds onto... If he is engaged in combat he can use the intractable stratagem to fall back and shoot.

Could the Excelsior with codex dark angels be a bit OP?

I dont think it would be OP, its like nearly 400 points :/



#11
sneakybamsen

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428 with standard armament according to my battlescribe. Then add the rhino primaris.

 

I don't see it being able to be warlord or being able to take a relic, but battlescribe could be wrong on that.

 

While it could be a strong tank, hitting on 2's even on the move with 4 LC shots and rerolling 1's, it's not nearly enough firepower for it's 500-600 points including the rhino primaris...


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#12
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428 with standard armament according to my battlescribe. Then add the rhino primaris.

 

I don't see it being able to be warlord or being able to take a relic, but battlescribe could be wrong on that.

 

While it could be a strong tank, hitting on 2's even on the move with 4 LC shots and rerolling 1's, it's not nearly enough firepower for it's 500-600 points including the rhino primaris...

Exactly, nowdays I compare everything in 400/500 point range to a shadowsword.



#13
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428 with standard armament according to my battlescribe. Then add the rhino primaris.

I don't see it being able to be warlord or being able to take a relic, but battlescribe could be wrong on that.

While it could be a strong tank, hitting on 2's even on the move with 4 LC shots and rerolling 1's, it's not nearly enough firepower for it's 500-600 points including the rhino primaris...

Exactly, nowdays I compare everything in 400/500 point range to a shadowsword.
which badly needs a review.

#14
Helycon

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I would have loved a Baneblade chassis LoW for my Dark Angels, or a Thunderhawk. But since the price hike, they're not as interesting. The Thunderhawk is amazing in the new model too, but it makes me sad they upped the price.

Back on topic:
I'm not sure about the Excelsior. If you can give it Warlord traits and relics, it may well be pretty good. Then again, it's easy to target and a couple of Lascannons can get rid of a LOT of points, losing you a big aura, a Warlord kill, and some heavy shooting too. It's a lot of eggs in a basket.

#15
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Thanks for the thoughts, gentlemen.

Missed out on the pair on eBay recently but I'll be neat Nottingham later in the year. Really want the Rhino for my 2000 list. I'm just a dark talon and scout squad away from finishing my 1500 list :)

#16
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Managed to pick up the Rhino Primaris without the Excelaior but I've kept the Excelsior in my eBay watch list just in case I can get a deal.

With the Excelsior having the character keyword and being HQ (Rhino is HQ but not character) I'm pretty sure it can be warlord and take a relic.p

If you had the Excelsior fully kitted out (tenacity and shroud) with the rhino primaris, thunderfire cannon, darkshroud and a pile of company vets it could be super difficult to shift.

The thunderfire cannon could sit behind it getting the plus 1. The techmarine gunner doesn't have the rule about a model only being healed once... You could regain 1 (from the rhino) + D3 wounds (techmarine gunner) each turn.

... Bit confused. Was going to tally points for this on battlescribe but the thunderfire cannon is missing. The thunderfire cannon is in the index but not the codex. Can you use the index entry?

#17
Harleqvin

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Managed to pick up the Rhino Primaris without the Excelaior but I've kept the Excelsior in my eBay watch list just in case I can get a deal.

With the Excelsior having the character keyword and being HQ (Rhino is HQ but not character) I'm pretty sure it can be warlord and take a relic.p

If you had the Excelsior fully kitted out (tenacity and shroud) with the rhino primaris, thunderfire cannon, darkshroud and a pile of company vets it could be super difficult to shift.

The thunderfire cannon could sit behind it getting the plus 1. The techmarine gunner doesn't have the rule about a model only being healed once... You could regain 1 (from the rhino) + D3 wounds (techmarine gunner) each turn.

... Bit confused. Was going to tally points for this on battlescribe but the thunderfire cannon is missing. The thunderfire cannon is in the index but not the codex. Can you use the index entry?

If it was available as a unit in the index for DA, it is still usable by DA as per the Designer's Commentary.


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#18
Helycon

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Pretty sure the Thunderbird cannon wasn't available to us in the Index either. Its in the Space Marine section I think, not in the DA bit. Generic units were in a consolidated list at the start of the DA section and I'm 99% sure the Thunderfire wasn't there. Can't check it at work though.

Edited by Helycon, 13 February 2018 - 01:18 PM.


#19
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Looks like I was getting my wires crossed. Late night at the distillery ;)




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