My 8th Edition baptism by fire.

[Wargamer]

At last, I have finally played a game of 8th Edition!

My Supernovas took on Skitarii in a 1,750pt clash. I don't recall the exact list, but here's a rough guide:

 

SUPERNOVAS:

Cataphractii Captain

5x Cataphractii with Lightning Claws.

Terminator Librarian.

Primaris Lieutenant.

3 Tac Squads.

1 Scout Squad (half sniper half bolter)

Venerable Dreadnought.

Contemptor Dreadnought.

5 Sternguard.

 

SKITARII:

Archmagos Mary Sue.

2 Techpriests.

2 large robots.

2 Dunewalkers (I think).

3 Skitarii infantry squads.

A :cussing Knight.

 

Now I should point out that we ended the game after turn four because after my second shooting phase it was obvious I was going to win by a landslide. We were playing for objectives and after I wiped his infantry out in a storm of bolter fire there was now way in hell he was out-capping me.

 

However, there were a few things that irked me a bit. So, these were my thoughts from the opening game.

 

 

THE GOOD:

This edition has the potential to flow very smoothly. Neither of us were that up to speed on 8th Edition and so a lot of time was spent looking up the statlines of units and weapons, but if you have all of those things bookmarked or memorised I can see 8th playing very nicely indeed.

 

The changes to the wound rolls and vehicles made ordinary troops feel relevant. I liked the fact that heavy weapons in particular were not simply wounding everything on 2+, and armour modifiers are hugely more entertaining! It felt so good to pass a 6+ armour save against the Knight and have one guy still clinging onto the objective in defiance of his overwhelming firepower!

 

Command Points are also great. I had 6 of them and one of my best uses was to interject and allow my Captain to fight before the Knight, landing a ton of chainfist hits that knocked it down a tier and reduced its Ws - which meant all the retaliatory attacks missed!

 

THE BAD:

The fact that massive, insanely powerful units are still freely available to field is something I do not like. For the past two turns of the game I poured everything I had into the Knight and barely slowed it down. The fact Bolters can actually hurt the thing is a blessing, as otherwise I wouldn't have so much as scratched the paintwork, but the game was still dominated by the thing.

 

Cawl was a similar issue. I can already tell this Edition is going to revolve entirely around characters with hugely powerful auras who you simply cannot engage because they aren't the closest target.

 

(and yes, I'm aware my list had two characters following my gunline letting me re-roll all 1s to hit and wound. But that took two of them and it still pales compared to the scent of fresh Wensleydale wafting from Cawl).

 

CONCLUSION:

8th Edition has sold me on 40K again. My issues with the game are not so much the core rules as some of the potential army contents. I think the biggest stuff should be a lot harder to bring to the table, purely so that games focus on armies and not one model capable of tanking an army's worth of fire.

 

Still, I'm definitely on board with this again. And I'm also rather pleased my first outing with the Supernovas resulted in GLORIOUS VICTORY! 

[FirstSonofHorus]

Good to read.

 

Big things like Knights are something I tend to dislike, but I will say that they tend to go down far better. You just need to have a good amount of lascannons/meltas. It looks like you don't - those are the choices you have to make. They've done a good job of making the weapons better at suiting their specialised role. Although massed las cannons can be excessive.

 

Definitely agree on the aura effects. I like them in general, but Gulliman and Cawl in particular seem underpriced for their overall utility. Though AdMech need an update to give them more interesting HQ options anyway... 

[Cryptix]

I've heard rumors of Guilliman being next on the executioner's block, so to speak.

[Perry]

You mention that you had problems facing down a Knight, will you take that experience and decide on a proper counter-plan?

 

I used a Admech list last night vs a Ravenwing force. I was confident my Paladin Knight would wreck the army of bikes and speeders. Well turn one the Knight got peppered with Krak missiles from some Typhoons, leaving me down a stat level and on 11 wounds.

 

If you get lucky with damage rolls the big boys don't last long.

[Wargamer]

Good to read.

 

Big things like Knights are something I tend to dislike, but I will say that they tend to go down far better. You just need to have a good amount of lascannons/meltas. It looks like you don't - those are the choices you have to make. They've done a good job of making the weapons better at suiting their specialised role. Although massed las cannons can be excessive.

 

Definitely agree on the aura effects. I like them in general, but Gulliman and Cawl in particular seem underpriced for their overall utility. Though AdMech need an update to give them more interesting HQ options anyway... 

My list ran three meltaguns, two missile launchers, a combi-melta, a plasma gun and a heavy plasma cannon as the primary "anti big stuff", but one look at the thing's statline told me I'd lose the game if I actually acknowledged its existence. The Dunewalkers and battle robots were spongy enough as it was.

 

 

 

You mention that you had problems facing down a Knight, will you take that experience and decide on a proper counter-plan?

 

I used a Admech list last night vs a Ravenwing force. I was confident my Paladin Knight would wreck the army of bikes and speeders. Well turn one the Knight got peppered with Krak missiles from some Typhoons, leaving me down a stat level and on 11 wounds.

 

If you get lucky with damage rolls the big boys don't last long.

Right now my strategy is simply to ask him not to bring it again. I don't have the money to build a counter unit and I'm not interested in owning ugly models purely because the metagame says they're OP.

[Jagus Kumkani]

I have plenty of Meltas and Missile Launchers in my army. I also run my Stormraven with Lascannons, Multi-Melta and the default stormstrike missiles.

The last game I played, I made short work of my opponents knight. Meltas are going to go a long way especially if you have two per tactical squad.

 

Like FirstSonofHorus, I'd suggest getting some heavy weapons to combat those types of threats.

I agree with you about the accessibility to heavy walkers and the like that people bring. There should be some kind of stipulation with bringing a knight or titan.

[Garreck]

So first and most important, it's great to hear 8th edition is hitting the right notes for fans who fell by the wayside in previous editions.

 

I'm a little confused about your post-game approach to the knight. You took the correct actions in the game to mitigate the knight's strengths, and you won the game. Your key take-away is to ask your friend not to bring it again...?

[Wargamer]

So first and most important, it's great to hear 8th edition is hitting the right notes for fans who fell by the wayside in previous editions.

 

I'm a little confused about your post-game approach to the knight. You took the correct actions in the game to mitigate the knight's strengths, and you won the game. Your key take-away is to ask your friend not to bring it again...?

Well yes, because I didn't find its presence at all enjoyable.

 

I do not like having to face a unit that I can't hurt and have to just ignore and hope it doesn't wipe anything too valuable as it rampages uncontested through my line.

 

What about that is hard to understand?

 

It's also important to note that we were playing a scenario where we got 1 VP per turn for holding objectives, and by the end of turn 2 it was 6-2 in my favour, largely because I'd wiped his squishy units. If we were playing a different scenario, one where I couldn't win just by spreading out and laughing at my enemy for not being able to engage my entire force at once, I might not have won so soundly.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Wargamer

[CaptainMarsh]

Congrats on the victory.

As for asking him to not bring the Knight: I understand your reasoning, but isn't it a little strange? He didn't break any of the game's rules by bringing it and you won. With the majority of game types favoring objectives over simple killing, bringing a Knight makes you less effective in achieving a victory. That is the trade-off: He can try to out-murder you, but you out-objective him.

[Wargamer]

That's rather like saying there's no rules against spawn camping in a FPS, so you don't have the right to object if you're dying before the spawn animation finishes.

 

Games are meant to be fun for both sides, and the fact is that I would have enjoyed the game more if I had faced more, but weaker was units. Even if I might have lost the game because of them.

[Garreck]

Games are meant to be fun for both sides

 

You're right.  That's what matters most.  I'm genuinely surprised it wouldn't be fun for you to take on a hard target and win, but I shouldn't try to dictate someone's fun to them.  I'd be a little surprised if your opponent would be okay with having force limitations dictated to him, but if that's your gaming dynamic then that's awesome.

[Wargamer]

 

Games are meant to be fun for both sides

 

You're right.  That's what matters most.  I'm genuinely surprised it wouldn't be fun for you to take on a hard target and win, but I shouldn't try to dictate someone's fun to them.  I'd be a little surprised if your opponent would be okay with having force limitations dictated to him, but if that's your gaming dynamic then that's awesome.

 

I've been doing that since third. My local Eldar player hated facing Russ spam when I played Guard, I hated Wraithlord spam. So guess what we both stopped doing?

 

I guess this is what happens when you don't play with tournament groups.

[CaptainMarsh]

That's rather like saying there's no rules against spawn camping in a FPS, so you don't have the right to object if you're dying before the spawn animation finishes.

 

Games are meant to be fun for both sides, and the fact is that I would have enjoyed the game more if I had faced more, but weaker was units. Even if I might have lost the game because of them.

Spawn camping happens when an FPS has poor spawning points and mechanics. It is a failure of game design. Imperial Knights showing up in a 1750 point game is not a failure of game design. Both sides have a right to a fun game and if your opponent is fine playing with such limitations, then good. That doesn't make it any less strange to me, of course.

[Wargamer]

 

That's rather like saying there's no rules against spawn camping in a FPS, so you don't have the right to object if you're dying before the spawn animation finishes.

 

Games are meant to be fun for both sides, and the fact is that I would have enjoyed the game more if I had faced more, but weaker was units. Even if I might have lost the game because of them.

Spawn camping happens when an FPS has poor spawning points and mechanics. It is a failure of game design. Imperial Knights showing up in a 1750 point game is not a failure of game design. Both sides have a right to a fun game and if your opponent is fine playing with such limitations, then good. That doesn't make it any less strange to me, of course.

 

Great logic. How do you know spawn camping is a failure of game design and not an intentional mechanic? How did you decide massive, battle-dominating units appearing without any restriction is not a failure of game design? Keep in mind that when these kind of units first began appearing, there were two criteria for their use:

 

1) The game had to be 2,000pts or more.

2) Your opponent had to give you permission to field them!

 

Relatively speaking, Super-Heavies in 3rd were the weakest they have ever been at any point in 40K's modern lifecycle. They were slower, their guns were less powerful, and they were generally easier to kill.

 

So on what grounds did you make the call that it was 3rd that got it wrong?

[the jeske]

Big unit exists for a big faction. It is good and rises the win rate. A lot of people buy the unit. There for they class it as good, and ok in the game. When the opposit happens aka something is realy good vs the biggest faction in the game, it is viewed as bad, as it lowers the chance of people to win.

 

Both sides have a right to a fun game and if your opponent is fine playing with such limitations, then good.

 

 

But fun is subjective, and what is not a small factor also, isn't automaticlly linked to the game. If someones fun is linked to drinking bear, then the state of the game as long as it doesn't stop you from drinkings, is a secondary thing to the game mechanics being good/bad.

[Brother Casman]

Uh, guys? What happened in here?

[ERJAK]

Knights aren't great tbh. Especially if they're not Crusaders. Massing them is strong but just 1 is basically a fancy landraider.

[Claws and Effect]

If you had problems dealing with a Knight, then you would likely have similar problems against any kind of armor heavy list.

 

I'm of the opinion that this was more a flaw in your list than a single unit of something being overpowered.

 

4 meltaguns, 2 ML, a plasmagun, and a plasma cannon is not much anti-armor at all.

 

By my count, you don't have a single dedicated heavy support unit in your list. Of course you're going to have trouble taking down a Knight.

 

I'm glad it was fun otherwise, but to be blunt asking someone not to bring something I'm sure they spent a lot of time on because you don't want to adjust your list to deal with it, that's kind of a jerk move.

 

A single Devastator squad with lascannons can take a Knight down in 2 turns with decent rolls. Not like you need 3 grav Centurion squads or anything equally ridiculous.

[WarMother]

We just played our first 8th edition game tonight as well and encountered the same problems with the knights, whilst they used to go down in a blaze of glory it does seem to be taking longer...after much head scratching re-thinking our armies tomorrow morning may help...

[ONDIG]

I would maybe drop a Tac squad for a squad of Devastators.This would allow you up to 4 Heavy weapons choices to round out your AT needs.Missle launchers and a couple Las cannons keeps it friendly straight Lascannon / Multimelta if playing more competitively.I agree w/ the perceived speed of play .The few games I've had(Hate Orcs so much!) Things have gone MUCH more smoothly w/ such a basic rules set.We spent more time actually playing the game than having to search thru 1,000 pgs of rules while the game dragged to a halt.So far I'm giving 8ed 2 thumbs up!