Alpharius Omegon... Does anyone else hate this?

[Scammel]

Nah, the Alphas aren't remotely loyal. They're Chaos Space Marines through and through, the only difference being that it may have taken them a little longer to realise that their souls were forfeit.

[USNCenturion]

Also not sure if this was stated previously, or if the lore has changed, but Alph and Omeg are loyal in the sense they acted to preserve the galaxy. They are traitors to the imperium, the emperor, and mankind, because without those things chaos could not survive and thrive.

 

I don't think they are secretly aiding the imperium by working with chaos. They are trying to destroy the imperium so that chaos will then destroy itself.

[slitth]

Nah, the Alphas aren't remotely loyal. They're Chaos Space Marines through and through, the only difference being that it may have taken them a little longer to realise that their souls were forfeit.

 

True some might have fallen to chaos, maybe all. But we will never really know.

 

Also not sure if this was stated previously, or if the lore has changed, but Alph and Omeg are loyal in the sense they acted to preserve the galaxy. They are traitors to the imperium, the emperor, and mankind, because without those things chaos could not survive and thrive.

 

I don't think they are secretly aiding the imperium by working with chaos. They are trying to destroy the imperium so that chaos will then destroy itself.

 

Loyal, traitor, it all a matter of perspective. But I am certain that the Alpha Legion were true to their value doing the HH.

But kill of chaos sound like a utopian dream to me, and the Alpha Legion have a saying about all things utopian.

[Trevak Dal]

Admittedly the spy vs spy :cussery is like something out of a Hideo Kojima game. It just needs to be delivered by someone in an over acted British accent with as many 'brothers' thrown in as a Macho Man/Hulk Hogan sound bite from the vintage WWF days.

 

It gets so tiresome that I have gone with the theory that there are no other legion besides the Alpha Legion, they have replaced everyone and everyone thinks they aren't alpha legion (but they are sleepers or whatever).

[Beachymike123]

Admittedly the spy vs spy :cussery is like something out of a Hideo Kojima game. It just needs to be delivered by someone in an over acted British accent with as many 'brothers' thrown in as a Macho Man/Hulk Hogan sound bite from the vintage WWF days.

 

It gets so tiresome that I have gone with the theory that there are no other legion besides the Alpha Legion, they have replaced everyone and everyone thinks they aren't alpha legion (but they are sleepers or whatever).

First, love the Metal Gear reference.

Second, I see the following scene unfolding....

 

*Abaddon, Magnus and a few select Chosen and Abaddon's Mournival storm into the Throne Room, having finally made it to Terra*

Abaddon: By the dark gods I shall strike you down...

Mournival, Chosen and Magnus: I AM ALPHARIUS

Abaddon: *looks around* the f....

The Emperor: Psyche...I'm Alpharius

*Abaddon points Drach'nyen at The Emperor*

Drach'nyen: *whispers*I'm Omegon!

 

 

But seriously, I kind of like the dual Primarch part. Shows the fluidity of the XX Legion, as well as a concept of having a bond not many others understand (one I don't think is portayed amazingly well at times, ie the twins concept) but is at least present.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

Admittedly the spy vs spy :cussery is like something out of a Hideo Kojima game. It just needs to be delivered by someone in an over acted British accent with as many 'brothers' thrown in as a Macho Man/Hulk Hogan sound bite from the vintage WWF days.

 

It gets so tiresome that I have gone with the theory that there are no other legion besides the Alpha Legion, they have replaced everyone and everyone thinks they aren't alpha legion (but they are sleepers or whatever).

First, love the Metal Gear reference.

Second, I see the following scene unfolding....

 

*Abaddon, Magnus and a few select Chosen and Abaddon's Mournival storm into the Throne Room, having finally made it to Terra*

Abaddon: By the dark gods I shall strike you down...

Mournival, Chosen and Magnus: I AM ALPHARIUS

Abaddon: *looks around* the f....

The Emperor: Psyche...I'm Alpharius

*Abaddon points Drach'nyen at The Emperor*

Drach'nyen: *whispers*I'm Omegon!

 

 

But seriously, I kind of like the dual Primarch part. Shows the fluidity of the XX Legion, as well as a concept of having a bond not many others understand (one I don't think is portayed amazingly well at times, ie the twins concept) but is at least present.

 

Personally, I like the whole concept of agendas and loyalties constantly fracturing and compartmentalizing until the Legion becomes a representation of raw Chaos itself. There is no one hand on the tiller, no one vision, and cells within cells within cells struggle to out-think and out-scheme the opposition, which long ago began to include their brothers...who may be Traitors....or maybe they're Loyalists....or maybe they've lost track.

 

All they know is that they have to scheme, and undermine, and destroy the Imperium....

 

And then someone asks why, someone questions, and then a mnemonic trigger kicks in and their mind and personality are overwritten, refocusing them on a backup plan that their long-dead superiors implanted as one of THEIR backup plans....itself a result of a contingency from THEIR long-dead superiors......

 

It goes on, and on, and on.....a wilderness of mirrors. Everyone doing their part and no one knowing why. In one sense, it is their Primarchs' dream.....in another, their nightmare.

Edited July 28, 2017 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Nah, the Alphas aren't remotely loyal. They're Chaos Space Marines through and through, the only difference being that it may have taken them a little longer to realise that their souls were forfeit.

I think someone on this board once mentioned an interview where Dan Abnett was asked which side the XXth was really on. Supposedly, he said something along the lines of "Whatever their intentions WERE during the Heresy, they're true Chaos Marines now." 

 

Anyone remember that or have a reference?

[Sception]

The reason why helping chaos win to destroy chaos is dumb is that there's literally no point to it.  If chaos doesn't win without the help then it wasn't necessary.  And if chaos does win without the help, then it was pointless.  I hate hate HATE that GW took one of the cooler chaos subfactions and made them actually anti-chaos.  Imagine if we got fluff tomorrow that the Imperial Fists were secretly anti-imperium, had been the whole time, and they were given some convoluted BS excuse why they were and are and will remain an imperial faction even though they're actually the most dedicated of anyone to the imperium's destruction.  It would be just as terrible and nonsensical.

[ChazSexington]

1. It goes completely against the original "20 Primarchs." Twin or otherwise, its another Primarch. The Emperor made 20, he said he made 20, his sons knew there were 20. While IIRC the Emperor said he knew about it in the fluff, what possible motivation would he have for keeping that from the other 19 Primarchs?

 

2. Its super cliché, even for the Alpha Legion. I get it, masters of subterfuge, planning, and plots. But really, a secret twin Primarch? Its too much.

 

3. It defeats the purpose of the "original" Alpha Legion. Before the twin primarch concept, Alpharius fought Guilliman and died to prove a point. Even without their primarch, the Alpha Legion won over the Ultramarines because of their battle strategy and their ability to conduct every combat role required, as opposed to Guilliman's traditional style of warfare where each piece had a specific purpose. The fluidity of the XX legion is what won them the fight, and Alpharius's death proved that they were superior in that right. Having a "second" gene father just kind of cheapens that lesson.

 

Anyway, those are just my thoughts on it. Id be interested to hear everyone elses take on it, especially the Alpha Legion players we have here on the board. Maybe Im just the old man who won't let go of the old fluff in this regard, maybe im just misinformed. What are your thoughts?

 

Cheers,

 

-Kal

 

1. & 2. don't annoy me. 1 soul, 2 bodies. It also doesn't feel shoehorned - Dan Abnett, when he asked if he could do it, was told it was one of the ideas that had been kicking around since their inception. 

 

3. Alpharius' death was terribad. He only died to show how awesome the Imperial Fists are. We still have Omegon, so he may be the one who dies at Eskrador.

 

My issues are

1. the weird ass scene in Legion, where Alpharius is convinced by some vision conjured xenos heretic witches to betray the Emperor in 2 pages. 

2. the re-emphasising of their reasons for betrayal. It used to be the little brother syndrome, with their loyalty lying with the Sons of Horus rather than the Loyalists tipping the balance. This should still have been used better than it was. Maybe they wanted to believe the xenos, whom were just tools of Tzeentch all along? 

Edited July 29, 2017 by ChazSexington

[Trevak Dal]

Yeah they are super pragmatic and all are realize that the Emperor's goals are impossible to complete in a conventional sense. The Emperor didn't let slip the whole Nu Webway plans to isolate a psychic developing humanity from the warp, so AnO were working off what they could see. The vision of the future was one that was against what they knew of the Emperor's designs for humanity (human supremacy) and a society where all humans are worshiping someone or something as a god was against what he wanted, the ignorance, squalor of it all from that vision was antithetical to their purpose, and so bringing a swift end to Humanity was more preferred than the long decline.

 

Just a guess.

[slitth]

The reason why helping chaos win to destroy chaos is dumb is that there's literally no point to it.  If chaos doesn't win without the help then it wasn't necessary.  And if chaos does win without the help, then it was pointless.  I hate hate HATE that GW took one of the cooler chaos subfactions and made them actually anti-chaos.  Imagine if we got fluff tomorrow that the Imperial Fists were secretly anti-imperium, had been the whole time, and they were given some convoluted BS excuse why they were and are and will remain an imperial faction even though they're actually the most dedicated of anyone to the imperium's destruction.  It would be just as terrible and nonsensical.

 

The destruction of chaos is a utopian dream. But win or lose, the Imperium is dead.

But the goal of the Imperium may not just have be about unity and enlightenment, but survival.

 

And even the Alpha Legion must accept the one undeniable rule about chaos.

It corrupts everything it touches, only things that are anathema to chaos are safe.

And the Alpha Legion ain't no anathema to chaos.

[slitth]

Yeah they are super pragmatic and all are realize that the Emperor's goals are impossible to complete in a conventional sense. The Emperor didn't let slip the whole Nu Webway plans to isolate a psychic developing humanity from the warp, so AnO were working off what they could see. The vision of the future was one that was against what they knew of the Emperor's designs for humanity (human supremacy) and a society where all humans are worshiping someone or something as a god was against what he wanted, the ignorance, squalor of it all from that vision was antithetical to their purpose, and so bringing a swift end to Humanity was more preferred than the long decline.

 

Just a guess.

 

We have come to appreciate that Utopian goals are ultimately counter-intuitive to species survival.

No power can engender, or force to be engendered, a state of perfection.

Because perfection is an absolute that cannot be attained by an imperfect species.

It is better to manage and maintain the flaws of man on an ongoing basis.

 

- Legion

[Lucerne]

The Alpha Legion are renegades through and through- at absolute "best", they have enough of their original methodology to basically be the Istvaanian ideal or the extreme Radical Inquisitor mindset applied to Space Marines, bur with even less scruples or regard for collateral damage. Or, well, the 40k version of Hydra from MCU.

 

At worst, they've all lost their minds or been consumed by their own methodology to the point of being anarchic provocateurs for its own sake- an engine of destruction that just keeps on inventing objectives and targets on the whims of each cell's leaders....or straight up lost to the dark gods.

 

Either way, "For the Emperor" is a lie in fact if not intent, as with everything else the Alpha Legion says.

 

Omegon himself is fine- the Alpha Legion's always had a rather unsettling "unity" and interchangeable nature, so it makes sense for the Alpha Legion to have one final ace up their sleeve by the Emperor's design.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Ugolino

[Lay]

The reason why helping chaos win to destroy chaos is dumb is that there's literally no point to it.  If chaos doesn't win without the help then it wasn't necessary.  And if chaos does win without the help, then it was pointless.  I hate hate HATE that GW took one of the cooler chaos subfactions and made them actually anti-chaos.

 

I was under the impression that the whole anti-Chaos angle is just fan speculation. Ever since "Legion" I've tried to keep up with the Alpha Legion's fluff in 40k to see how the newer 30k lore would change their post-Heresy portrayal. As it stands, there are now more outright chaotic Alpha Legion warbands and characters than before Legion, but so far I haven't come across a single instance of Alphas working against Chaos, directly or indirectly.

As far as retcons that change a faction's character go, I'd say I was dealt a better card than those poor Iron Hands players.

[ChazSexington]

 

The reason why helping chaos win to destroy chaos is dumb is that there's literally no point to it.  If chaos doesn't win without the help then it wasn't necessary.  And if chaos does win without the help, then it was pointless.  I hate hate HATE that GW took one of the cooler chaos subfactions and made them actually anti-chaos.  Imagine if we got fluff tomorrow that the Imperial Fists were secretly anti-imperium, had been the whole time, and they were given some convoluted BS excuse why they were and are and will remain an imperial faction even though they're actually the most dedicated of anyone to the imperium's destruction.  It would be just as terrible and nonsensical.

 

The destruction of chaos is a utopian dream. But win or lose, the Imperium is dead.

But the goal of the Imperium may not just have be about unity and enlightenment, but survival.

 

And even the Alpha Legion must accept the one undeniable rule about chaos.

It corrupts everything it touches, only things that are anathema to chaos are safe.

And the Alpha Legion ain't no anathema to chaos.

 

 

 

 

Yeah they are super pragmatic and all are realize that the Emperor's goals are impossible to complete in a conventional sense. The Emperor didn't let slip the whole Nu Webway plans to isolate a psychic developing humanity from the warp, so AnO were working off what they could see. The vision of the future was one that was against what they knew of the Emperor's designs for humanity (human supremacy) and a society where all humans are worshiping someone or something as a god was against what he wanted, the ignorance, squalor of it all from that vision was antithetical to their purpose, and so bringing a swift end to Humanity was more preferred than the long decline.

 

Just a guess.

 

We have come to appreciate that Utopian goals are ultimately counter-intuitive to species survival.

No power can engender, or force to be engendered, a state of perfection.

Because perfection is an absolute that cannot be attained by an imperfect species.

It is better to manage and maintain the flaws of man on an ongoing basis.

 

- Legion

 

 

That paragraph really annoyed me. Pseudo-philosophical nonsensical babble that can be refuted by a five-year old was an unnecessary move by Abnett. There were a thousand easier ways for the Alpha Legion to come around to philosophically challenging the Emperor's militantly atheist Manifest Destiny/Lebensraum philosophy. With the risk of sounding pretentious, I hate it when BL authors try going all philosophical. As most of their authors struggle writing bolter porn pulp, sneaking in philosophy is a bit of a bold move. Stick to your guns (which are bolters). 

[thraxdown]

I kind of always really liked the movie The Prestige

[Sception]

I did too, but that doesn't mean I'm happy with the Alpharius fluff being swapped for a less-skillfully-executed parody version of it.  I love Adventure Time too, but that doesn't mean I want Russ's backstory to be retconned to include being raised by talking wolf private investigators and adventuring with his adopted wolf brother with magic shape changing stretchy dog powers.

[civsmitty]

This is admittedly headcanon, but I always viewed the Alpha Legion as prioritizing threats. The Cabal showing A/O what the future held probably didn't sway their goals, but it gave them the pathway to achieving one of them, and a new end goal.

 

When I read Legion, the speech about how the Emperor's vision was flawed always made me think that A/O thought the Emperor needed to be replaced. Maybe they weren't sure who should do the replacing, or how, but when they heard about Horus Alpharius probably figured "good plan now is better than a great plan later, so go Team Horus." And if/when Horus started mucking things up...you get it. 

[micahwc]

Personally I like the idea of at least some of them being double double agents. I think it gives them some good backstory. I feel like a lot of marine chapters and chaos legions can just be interchanged. A lot of chaos legions boil down to "evil marines who worship X instead of the Emperor". A lot of loyalist chapters boil down to "just like the Ultramarines but X color instead". I personally like the different chapters/legions to have something that makes them unique. I suppose this is one reason why I was initially drawn to Blood Angels. They have flaws. Massive flaws. And the Alpha Legion, if part of it is in fact working on behalf of the Imperium or at least against Chaos, has virtue. They are not a Snidley Whiplash characture of a loyalist marine. It makes it so I can empathize with them a bit more. The virtuous bits of backstory in the Chaos legions is the best part. Magnus attempting to warn the Emperor and getting beaten down by the wolves for it; the Deathguard trying to get in the fight for the Emperor before all subcoming to disease, etc. 

 

On a different note, I like the idea of the Alpha Legion because I can play them as Loyalists or as Chaos just by swapping models around and using the appropriate codex. It gives me access as a hobbyist to more models to work with; which in turn gives GW more money. 

[Deadnaughty]

The reason why helping chaos win to destroy chaos is dumb is that there's literally no point to it.  If chaos doesn't win without the help then it wasn't necessary.  And if chaos does win without the help, then it was pointless.  I hate hate HATE that GW took one of the cooler chaos subfactions and made them actually anti-chaos.  Imagine if we got fluff tomorrow that the Imperial Fists were secretly anti-imperium, had been the whole time, and they were given some convoluted BS excuse why they were and are and will remain an imperial faction even though they're actually the most dedicated of anyone to the imperium's destruction.  It would be just as terrible and nonsensical.

Isn't the whole thing about Chaos needed to win by a small margin right now (the HH) to cause certain events in the future to happen that leads to the desired outcome eventually.

Stopping the HH would merely cause Chaos to try again later with disastrous results. Horus winning by to large a margin would also have disastrous results.

 

Remember the cabal is working off Eldar visions so actions now are designed to direct events far into the future.

[Sception]

It was a cheap arse pull, like prophesies often are in genre fiction.  Your characters' actions make no sense whatsoever with their motivations?  Just throw a prophesy in!  Now you don't have to establish any correlation between their actions and the results they're trying to achieve by them!

 

"Boss, this is our village, why are we burning it, again?"

 

"You see, Billy, a prophet told me that we had to burn down our village, because their prophesy said that if we don't do that then our village would be destroyed by a fire!  As you know, there's nothing more awful than fire, and no one who hates fire more then me, Captain Burnius (apart from maybe my secret twin Flamius, but don't tell anyone about him, he's a secret).  I would do literally anything to save our village from a fiery fate, and that's why I'm ordering you to help me burn that very same village to the ground!"

 

"Makes sense to me, Boss, I'll grab a torch!"

Edited July 31, 2017 by malisteen

[Iron Father Ferrum]

In any case, I feel like this discussion isn't really going anywhere?  Both sides have stated their cases and no one appears to have changed their minds.  I mean, I guess we could keep throwing hyperbole around.

[Sception]

Hyperbole is fun, so why not?

[Schultzhoffen]

Clearly there are some, well, silly things about the Alpha Legion. In some ways they are Pythonesque. However, they are (to me) the epitome of a Tzeentch force that are not actually Thousand Sons with their "plans within plans" hilarity.

 

They are also deliciously insane.

 

 

...along with the rest of the Galaxy...

[Lucerne]

 

 

The reason why helping chaos win to destroy chaos is dumb is that there's literally no point to it.  If chaos doesn't win without the help then it wasn't necessary.  And if chaos does win without the help, then it was pointless.  I hate hate HATE that GW took one of the cooler chaos subfactions and made them actually anti-chaos.  Imagine if we got fluff tomorrow that the Imperial Fists were secretly anti-imperium, had been the whole time, and they were given some convoluted BS excuse why they were and are and will remain an imperial faction even though they're actually the most dedicated of anyone to the imperium's destruction.  It would be just as terrible and nonsensical.

 

The destruction of chaos is a utopian dream. But win or lose, the Imperium is dead.

But the goal of the Imperium may not just have be about unity and enlightenment, but survival.

 

And even the Alpha Legion must accept the one undeniable rule about chaos.

It corrupts everything it touches, only things that are anathema to chaos are safe.

And the Alpha Legion ain't no anathema to chaos.

 

 

 

 

Yeah they are super pragmatic and all are realize that the Emperor's goals are impossible to complete in a conventional sense. The Emperor didn't let slip the whole Nu Webway plans to isolate a psychic developing humanity from the warp, so AnO were working off what they could see. The vision of the future was one that was against what they knew of the Emperor's designs for humanity (human supremacy) and a society where all humans are worshiping someone or something as a god was against what he wanted, the ignorance, squalor of it all from that vision was antithetical to their purpose, and so bringing a swift end to Humanity was more preferred than the long decline.

 

Just a guess.

 

We have come to appreciate that Utopian goals are ultimately counter-intuitive to species survival.

No power can engender, or force to be engendered, a state of perfection.

Because perfection is an absolute that cannot be attained by an imperfect species.

It is better to manage and maintain the flaws of man on an ongoing basis.

 

- Legion

 

 

That paragraph really annoyed me. Pseudo-philosophical nonsensical babble that can be refuted by a five-year old was an unnecessary move by Abnett. There were a thousand easier ways for the Alpha Legion to come around to philosophically challenging the Emperor's militantly atheist Manifest Destiny/Lebensraum philosophy. With the risk of sounding pretentious, I hate it when BL authors try going all philosophical. As most of their authors struggle writing bolter porn pulp, sneaking in philosophy is a bit of a bold move. Stick to your guns (which are bolters). 

 

 

Except that it's actually straightforward? It's just restating the Alpha Legion's tendencies towards being manipuative control freaks that intentionally cause disruption for its own sake.