Chaos codex release date 8/5/17

[Plaguecaster]

You may take relics provided your warlord is a chaos space marine character though the relic can be give to any character, however the relic weapons can only be swapped for existing gear so to get a black mace you must replace a character's power maul for it (though you still pay for the power maul cost) Edited August 13, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[Sersi]

Can only your warlord equip a relic? Or can any model that has an item to switch out with a relic take one?

 

The codex says any character as the Warlord for your army is a CSM. 

[USNCenturion]

Evening fellow traitors. Was finally able to dig in to the new codex today after putting the kid to sleep. I'm enjoying it so far; really liking the layout, artwork and fluff.

 

I had one question that immediately stuck out to me, and I haven't been able to get the specific answer in the codex or on these forums so I apologize if it's been answered elsewhere.

 

When summoning demons, we use the 4/5 POWER LEVELs in the codex? Can we attempt to summon more using the higher power, or can we only ever summon the base 10 models? Thanks for any insight.

[Plaguecaster]

Evening fellow traitors. Was finally able to dig in to the new codex today after putting the kid to sleep. I'm enjoying it so far; really liking the layout, artwork and fluff.

 

I had one question that immediately stuck out to me, and I haven't been able to get the specific answer in the codex or on these forums so I apologize if it's been answered elsewhere.

 

When summoning demons, we use the 4/5 POWER LEVELs in the codex? Can we attempt to summon more using the higher power, or can we only ever summon the base 10 models? Thanks for any insight.

[Commissar K.]

Commissar K you really are nitpicking when it is pretty clear like this

If you actually read it it says this

In the rules described in this section we often refer to ‘Chaos Space Marine units’. This is shorthand for any unit that has ONE OF THE FOLLOWING FACTION KEYWORDS. The FALLEN KEYWORD is included simply included because is is one of the multiple keyword in the book which a chaos Space marine detachment can only be made up of so having a unit of falllen or Cypher it will still count as a chaos marine dettechment but you if include Thousand Sons or another faction then it no longer counts as a CHAOS SPACE MARINE DETTACHMENT so you lose all benefits only available to them like traits, strategems etc

 

 

Ok this is laughable and downright insulting only a WAAC player would try arguing this what does it say "Your character is slain" seems pretty clear cut the daemon prince won't get your character wargear since he is not the same model "add a Daemon prince to your army" sweet free daemon prince that doesn't use reinforcement points but what is a daemon prince and what is he armed with??? Turn to pg 123 what does it say for a daemon prince??? "A Daemon Prince is a single model armed with a hellforged sword and a set of malefic talon" you have your answer though it's kinda hard to see why It was a problem in the first place

Im happy you think it's laughable.

 

If you actually read the full post on page 116 you will see that the Fallen Keyword cannot be used by units in this Codex. In other words, you cannot change <Legion> to Fallen with the entries in this Codex, just like you cannot change it to Death Guard and Thousand Sons, as ruled by the same page in the description of <Legion>, page 116.

So when we go to Legion Traits and Fallen shows up again and it's mentioned Fallen cannot use any of these Legion Traits despite being a possible part of any Detachment the question for me is left and stays the same. Why exactly is Fallen Keyword mentioned with the others while the page with the Legion Traits states Fallen cannot make use of any of these abilities? (Which is stated under Shadowy Allies)

 

In regards to the Daemon Prince. I am happy to see you assuming it works that way. What isn't mentioned is how the process works. Do we get to choose a new <Mark of Chaos>? Do we get to choose a <Legion>? and if for example Slaanesh is chosen as a Mark of Chaos, do we then proceed to pick out a Psychic Ability? This rules intention is very vague again. 

Edited August 13, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Plaguecaster]

^^^^^

Yes I did read pg116 and you are completely right fallen can't be a legion but pg116 ihas absolutely no bearing at all with what is mentioned on pg156 under chaos space marine units as I said it is talking about what is considered a chaos space marine detachment so even though Fallen can't actually benefit from stratagems, traits or other rules etc they are still counted as part of a chaos marine detachment so the rest of your army doesn't lose those benefits since you took a unit of fallen or Cypher like if you took a Death Guard unit which would not count which means your force is no longer considered to be a Chaos Space marine detachment as such can't benefit from traits, stratagems etc which you can only take if it is

 

 

I'm not assuming anything you were talking about if the daemon prince retains his original wargear and is he armed with anything at all which he is

Even though I never mentioned the other stuff you are calling me out on it seems pretty clear he still gets a mark and can be a psyker with powers if he isn't Khorne as well since it does state that of you include a Damon prince in your army it must choose one of the 4 God keywords the only thing that isn't clear as you say is the legion and if he can take any of the upgrades

Edited August 13, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[Cheex]

If you actually read the full post on page 116 you will see that the Fallen Keyword cannot be used by units in this Codex. In other words, you cannot change <Legion> to Fallen with the entries in this Codex, just like you cannot change it to Death Guard and Thousand Sons, as ruled by the same page in the description of <Legion>, page 116.

So when we go to Legion Traits and Fallen shows up again and it's mentioned Fallen cannot use any of these Legion Traits despite being a possible part of any Detachment the question for me is left and stays the same. Why exactly is Fallen Keyword mentioned with the others while the page with the Legion Traits states Fallen cannot make use of any of these abilities? (Which is stated under Shadowy Allies)

The fact that they are mentioned on the Lost and the Damned page as being "Chaos Space Marines" isn't a contradiction. It currently doesn't make any difference that they are defined as "Chaos Space Marines" at this stage, but who knows what might happen in the future? Either way, no FAQ is required, as no rules are broken by this.

 

In regards to the Daemon Prince. I am happy to see you assuming it works that way. What isn't mentioned is how the process works. Do we get to choose a new <Mark of Chaos>? Do we get to choose a <Legion>? and if for example Slaanesh is chosen as a Mark of Chaos, do we then proceed to pick out a Psychic Ability? This rules intention is very vague again.

The rule says you can add a Daemon Prince to your army, with it not counting towards reinforcement points. When you include a unit in your army, you choose which Legion it belongs to and which Mark of Chaos it has if applicable (ref Slaves to Darkness, Keywords section). In the case of the Daemon Prince, you need to decide which Daemonic Alignment it has (ref Daemon Prince datasheet). When you include a unit in your army, you select its wargear options (no page ref, but otherwise literally nothing would be able to take upgrades ever).

 

You definitely raise a few good points, though:

 

1. Can the Daemon Prince be a different Legion or have a different Alignment to the model it replaces? (By RAW it can, but seems wrong.)

2. Is the Daemon Prince added to an existing Detachment? If so, and you choose a different Legion to the rest of the Detachment, do you lose the Legion Trait that you've chosen? If not, does your army lost Battle-Forged status as you now have a model that does not fit into a Detachment?

3. Can you select psychic powers for the Daemon Prince? (By RAW you cannot, as psychic powers are chosen before the battle - ref Dark Hereticus Discipline page.)

[DreamIsCollapsing]

1. Can the Daemon Prince be a different Legion or have a different Alignment to the model it replaces? (By RAW it can, but seems wrong.)

2. Is the Daemon Prince added to an existing Detachment? If so, and you choose a different Legion to the rest of the Detachment, do you lose the Legion Trait that you've chosen? If not, does your army lost Battle-Forged status as you now have a model that does not fit into a Detachment?

3. Can you select psychic powers for the Daemon Prince? (By RAW you cannot, as psychic powers are chosen before the battle - ref Dark Hereticus Discipline page.)

 

 

- It can't be clearer : Spawn & Daemon Prince got the same Mark as the character who use Goons of Chaos. 

- Nobody care about the Legion :

     - If Daemon Prince is without Legion/of another Legion of the rest of you detachement it won't cancel your Legion Trait as it treated as Reinforcement (same way summonig daemon don't invalidate your Legion Trait)

     - Their isn't any Legion Trait wich can be apply to a Daemon Prince (they are no Infantery/Biker/Hellbrute) and their is no CSM Stratagem applying to Daemon alone (it's Infantery, biker, Predator, Hellbrute, Vindicator, Daemon Vehicules, Vehicules).  

- Only unanswered question is about Spell, until FAQ says otherwise the new Daemon Prince can only use smite. 

Edited August 13, 2017 by DreamIsCollapsing

[Cheex]

 

- It can't be clearer : Spawn & Daemon Prince got the same Mark as the character who use Goons of Chaos. 

- Nobody care about the Legion :

     - If Daemon Prince is without Legion/of another Legion of the rest of you detachement it won't cancel your Legion Trait as it treated as Reinforcement (same way summonig daemon don't invalidate your Legion Trait)

     - Their isn't any Legion Trait wich can be apply to a Daemon Prince (they are no Infantery/Biker/Hellbrute) and their is no CSM Stratagem applying to Daemon alone (it's Infantery, biker, Predator, Hellbrute, Vindicator, Daemon Vehicules, Vehicules).  

- Only unanswered question is about Spell, until FAQ says otherwise the new Daemon Prince can only use smite. 

 

1. Where does it say this? You remove the original model as a casualty, and place a new Daemon Prince on the table; there is no rules connection between the two.

 

2. a) I've also been trying to find this - I could have sworn I read it somewhere. Do you know where this is stated?

b] You misunderstand me - I am referring to the Legion Traits used by the rest of your Detachment. If a unit is added to a Detachment that is not from the same Legion as the rest of the Detachment, the Detachment is now ineligible to have any Legion Trait. Would be a moot point if it does get added outside the Detachment or GW rules that it must have the same Legion, though.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Cheex

[DreamIsCollapsing]

1. Where does it say this? You remove the original model as a casualty, and place a new Daemon Prince on the table; there is no rules connection between the two.

 

 

At the end of the Goons of Chaos, p158 "Chaos Spawn or Daemon Prince must have the same Chaos mark as the models, and doesnt cost any point in ranked match".

 

I've got the codex in French so page may differ. Only question left is : what about Character without Chaos Mark. 

 

. If a unit is added to a Detachment that is not from the same Legion as the rest of the Detachment, the Detachment is now ineligible to have any Legion Trait. Would be a moot point if it does get added outside the Detachment or GW rules that it must have the same Legion, though.

 

 

This unit is treated as reinforcement, so she doesnt belong to any of your detachment. It's really like Summoning daemon on a reglementar chaos space marine army : you don't loose your Legion Trait despise having a non-CHaos Space Marine unit in your rank. 

[Commissar K.]

 

1. Where does it say this? You remove the original model as a casualty, and place a new Daemon Prince on the table; there is no rules connection between the two.

 

 

At the end of the Goons of Chaos, p158 "Chaos Spawn or Daemon Prince must have the same Chaos mark as the models, and doesnt cost any point in ranked match".

 

I've got the codex in French so page may differ. Only question left is : what about Character without Chaos Mark. 

 

. If a unit is added to a Detachment that is not from the same Legion as the rest of the Detachment, the Detachment is now ineligible to have any Legion Trait. Would be a moot point if it does get added outside the Detachment or GW rules that it must have the same Legion, though.

 

 

This unit is treated as reinforcement, so she doesnt belong to any of your detachment. It's really like Summoning daemon on a reglementar chaos space marine army : you don't loose your Legion Trait despise having a non-CHaos Space Marine unit in your rank. 

 

Im cool with that intend, if that is GW's intend. Which to me isn't clear (again).

 

 

[Plaguecaster]

Well the rulebook does state any ability or psyker power that adds units to your army is part of your armies reinforcements which you have to pay for unless stated (like the boon) so it's pretty clear since you are adding a Damon prince or spawn to your army they are counted as reinforcements excatly like any daemon you can summon so don't count as part of the dettachment so there is no issue of losing your faction benefits excatly like word bearers summoning daemons which are reinforcements so don't make you lose your chaos space marine dettachment rules Edited August 13, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[Sception]

Is it just me, or does Fabius Bile not count as a Chaos Space Marine model since he lacks the appropriate legion keywords?

 

As such, does the inclusion of fabius bile in a detatchment prevent it from counting as a 'Chaos Space Marine' detachment for the purposes of 'Despoilers of the Galaxy' and chaos space marine stratagems? Likewise, it seems that if Bile is your warlord, your army cannot include any Chaos Space Marine artifacts, as they require a Chaos Space Marine warlord to unlock them, and Bile doesn't count as one.

 

He gets a specific exception for the Legion Traits rule, and for his own warlord trait, but not for anything else. Seems like something else for the errata pile.

[Khornestar]

Ugh. I guess 8th is no better than any other edition in terms of avoiding this nonsense. At least they answer questions now.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Ugh. I guess 8th is no better than any other edition in terms of avoiding this nonsense. At least they answer questions now.

 

8th is no better than any other edition in this respect because the rules writers assume that players will make the same assumptions that they themselves held when they wrote the rules. What seems like common sense to one person isn't clear or needs specific confirmation to a certain percentage of the player base.

[Sception]

The same common sense that would tell you Bile, as an HQ in the CSM codex, is a valid HQ in CSM detachments would also tell you bloodletters or horrors are valid troops, but that isn't the case, either. The counter-logic that says bloodletters shouldn't be a valid troop in CSM detachments even though they're troops units described in the CSM codex, because they aren't actually Chaos Space Marines, would also imply that cultists shouldn't be valid CSM troops, but they are.

 

In the end common sense can't be relied upon, because the rules writers themselves employ often contradictory reasoning in their rules. The only thing to hold on to is what they actually wrote.

 

There are many things i like about 8th, but the rules writing has been, if anything, even sloppier than in the past, due to a combination of rushing too much content out too quickly with too small a development team and too little testing, and a general attitude that errors in published products just don't matter because they can be patched after the fact.

Edited August 13, 2017 by malisteen

[Khornestar]

Did power levels for CSM or cultists change, or only points cost? Can Exalted Champions take jump packs or any other upgrades?

Edited August 13, 2017 by Juggernut

[Aothaine]

Did power levels for CSM or cultists change, or only points cost? Can Exalted Champions take jump packs or any other upgrades?

 

Not sure about the PL/Points but from what I can see the Exalted Chamption cannot take jumpacks and can only upgrade his weapons.

[USNCenturion]

As far as I am understanding it, a chaos space marine army can utilize as many daemon troops as it wants; you just are forfeiting the use of a Legion trait for whatever detachment uses them. In 8th, it's easy to have multiple detachments, and all this goes along with GWs stated desire to allow players to use whatever they want, whenever they want.

 

The rules are there and written, provided the chain is followed. It's the result of the rules, losing benefits for using certain units, that I think are rubbing people the wrong way.

 

Renegades not being able to use the veterans of the long war stratagem is another example of fluff dictating rules, that I can see some people missing or having a problem with.

Edited August 13, 2017 by USNCenturion

[Warsmith Aznable]

The same common sense that would tell you Bile, as an HQ in the CSM codex, is a valid HQ in CSM detachments would also tell you bloodletters or horrors are valid troops, but that isn't the case, either. The counter-logic that says bloodletters shouldn't be a valid troop in CSM detachments even though they're troops units described in the CSM codex, because they aren't actually Chaos Space Marines, would also imply that cultists shouldn't be valid CSM troops, but they are.

 

I think it's fair to assume that the codex writers thought it was fair to assume that most people using the Chaos Space Marines codex would have already read and understood the main rules explaining how Faction Keywords work when determining valid detachments and Battleforged armies, and that the book title "Chaos Space Marines" was a thematic focus and not necessarily a Faction Keyword of absolutely every unit in the book.

[Warsmith Aznable]

 

It's the result of the rules, losing benefits for using certain units, that I think are rubbing people the wrong way.

 

One of the long standing complaints about previous editions was that there was no reason to play armies on the tabletop that resembled the background as presented, because players got more benefit by cherry picking units with the best stat lines and abilities. It might not be the best answer, but something had to be done to keep a codex from being distilled into the One True List that everyone was eventually forced to play.

[Sception]

 

The same common sense that would tell you Bile, as an HQ in the CSM codex, is a valid HQ in CSM detachments would also tell you bloodletters or horrors are valid troops, but that isn't the case, either. The counter-logic that says bloodletters shouldn't be a valid troop in CSM detachments even though they're troops units described in the CSM codex, because they aren't actually Chaos Space Marines, would also imply that cultists shouldn't be valid CSM troops, but they are.

 

I think it's fair to assume that the codex writers thought it was fair to assume that most people using the Chaos Space Marines codex would have already read and understood the main rules explaining how Faction Keywords work when determining valid detachments and Battleforged armies, and that the book title "Chaos Space Marines" was a thematic focus and not necessarily a Faction Keyword of absolutely every unit in the book.

 

 

Which is fine, but if you're going by the 'thematic focus', then cultists wouldn't count, while if you go by the keywords then Bile doesn't.  That probably isn't intended and thus requires some errata, because guessing games based on previous info aren't the most reliable so far this edition.  For instance, Berzerkers not being troops for world eaters seems to be absolutely intended in this book, even though they were troops in the index, and even though they'll almost certainly be the /only/ power armored troops for world eaters whenever they get their inevitable spin off codex.

[Khornestar]

Yes, exactly! The changes between the index and the codex and the subsequent legion-specific codices are just a waste of time. Why put in the effort to have rules in the index, only to take them away in the codex, and then potentially add them again? For the same legion...

 

If World Eaters DO get berzerkers as troops if/when they get a codex, then what the ? Ugh, this process is so clumsy and clunky. I don't even care about objective secured.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Juggernut

[Lord Asvaldir]

So the FAQ is out, good news for all WE and EC players, get your cult troops back! However the wording on WE and EC taking other marks has also been cleared up, there's now no wiggle room so WE is all khorne keyword and EC is all slaanesh, so no psykers for WE. Overall I'm happy with that mainly because it's a fluffy change.

 

Other than that not much changed. Daemon princes now get legion traits as well which is cool in the case of some legions like AL and renegades, pretty irrelevant for others like BL and WB.

[Brother Aiwass]

Butcher Horde all the way xD