Toxichobbit Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 That's a really big grey area. The FAQ clearly says that the codex takes precedence. units not present in codexes can be taken from the index, but im not convinced it means that unit upgrades are included in that. ill put an email into GW It's not grey, just a bit confusing. It's all in this FAQ here. There's two relevant questions that kinda contradict themselves, because GW are good at that. There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore? While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example. Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index). They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army. and Can I combine units from the index and a codex into one army?The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version. Reading between the lines (because that's the only way one section doesn't invalidate another in the same article) they mean that you should use datasheets from the Codex over those in the Index, but any upgrades or units not in the Codex can use the Index. That they use Dreadnought weapon options as one of the examples confirms that they do consider unit upgrades in the Index but not the Codex as legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 Interesting take. Be interesting to see if Gw reply to me email and can confirm that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxichobbit Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Honestly, they don't need to. They've already said it's legal, unless you think they're trying to trick people when they say you can use Dreadnought options from the Index :p. There are some people in the community who are still refusing to accept that it's fine, stating that the second quote overides the first one, usually so that they can complain about GW taking away their options. How someone manages to come to the conclusion that one quote is more valid than another when both were published at exactly the same time in the same article, I don't know. Most people though, have accepted that both unit entries and upgrades from the Index are perfectly legal as long as they're not already in the Codex. If you're still feeling unsure, look at the quotes again. The first one specifically calls out unit options from the Index that aren't in the Codex and says you are still allowed to use them. The second quote only says you have to use the datasheets from the Codex over the Index, it doesn't mention unit options and certainly doesn't say that you're restricted to just Codex unit options. Basically quote 1 is saying if a datasheet or unit option is in the Index but not the Codex, use the Index. Quote 2 is saying if a datasheet is in the Codex and the Index, use the Codex version. It's because some things that are in both the Codex and Index have changed (Dreadnought points values for example) and they want you using the most recent version, not because they want to prohibit people from using their models that were converted with previously legal options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 Cheers dude, im running it past my gaming group and they seem to accept it, so it works for me going forward. There is a topic/thread in the -OR- forum, where it wasn't really decided, so was a case on err of the side of caution.. im remedy the new tactica part to represent this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxichobbit Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Glad your group are onboard with it :). At the end of the day no matter what GW says if a group doesn't want to use certain rules there's not a lot you can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 im always looking to go by the "official" rules, because you never know when youll want to attend an actual event. Ill be magnetizing my LSS weapons anyway (underslinging them as before too) im ordering 18 scout bikes and 5 land speeder storms next week, so I can start the project going, ive got a few infantry on the way too. I think this time I wont be converting the models too much, a little on the storms, might get some cool looking helmets for the bikers, any suggestions? I will be however making some cool looikng bases/mini dioramas for the storms, using imperial ruins and hidden snipers etc, what kind of size bases do you all recommend, warhammer chariot sized? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONDIG Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 The ASG is,mildly disappointing since it's no longer rapid fire but scout bikes en masse as you've suggested still stand to be a holy terror !Especially w/ the cluster mine stratagem(and shotguns!)For biker heads/helmets I'd look at some of Puppets war stuff many possibilities there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Yeah hitting with Shot guns AND twin bolters at the same time is amazing. I consider the extra Strength for half range is a bonus to the actual extra shots. The Krak Grenades are important though because you lose a single twin bolter (so 1 or 3 shots) for a S6 weapon that does D3 damage for -1ap. D3 wounds is nothing to be sniffed at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reyner Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Tempestus Scion helmets look good on Scouts - I imagine Skitarii Vanguard heads would look cool too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 10, 2017 Author Share Posted August 10, 2017 @Idaho. Arent the twin bolters 2 shots at range and 4 close up? Do you mean one model throwing the grenade, or the astartes grenade launchers? cheers reyner, ill look at the scion helmets in a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxichobbit Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 I'd guess he means grenade launcher, as that would replace just the twin bolters. If it was throwing a grenade then it would replace all the models weapons, so both the twin bolter and shotgun. Twin bolters do indeed have four shots at half range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Yes I meant the Astartes Grenade Launcher (1 shot) means you lose 1 shot at long range and 3 shots at close range on Scout Bikers. Totally worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Scouts just took a hard nerf. Infiltrating is now 9" from enemy AND 9" from enemy DZ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 10, 2017 Author Share Posted August 10, 2017 ok that kinda sucks, but then land speeder storms cant "infiltrate" anyway, neither can scout bikes, this edition has been hard on that aspect of scouts strategy. im still not sold on the grenade launchers, id need to do the maths, the AGL have it at range, but the 4 shots up close (with rerolls of 1s for captain, or all rerolls for chapter master etc) is better most of the time. I suppose it depends on how the rest of my list handles armour, my plan is to have the min scout units with ML and storm teams crack open armour, and let the bikes grind up the corned beef that falls out, I feel more shots is better than AGLs at that.. Although the ability to split fire does keep me guessing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Oh yeah, you can add Jump Pack Lieutenants to your list too ;) They can keep up with Bikers just about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 10, 2017 Author Share Posted August 10, 2017 yeah a lieutenant near snipers would be epic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 16, 2017 Author Share Posted August 16, 2017 bit of an update, I think im settled on a decent list. Proper detachment, 2 HQ, 6 troops and 2 fast attack. all ultramarines would net me 7 CP Captain on bike -terras teeth, combi-melta Telion 10 snipers, cloaks, HB 10 bolters, ML, combi-melta 10 scouts -LSS dedicated transport with MM -4 shotguns -4 bolter -ML -sergeant with shotgun and combi-melta 10 scouts -LSS dedicated transport with MM -4 shotguns -4 bolters -ML -sergeant with shotgun and combi-melta 10 scouts -LSS dedicated transport with MM -4 shotguns -4 bolters -ML -sergeant with shotgun and combi-melta 10 scouts -LSS dedicated transport with MM -4 shotguns -4 bolters -ML -sergeant with shotgun and combi-melta 9 scout bikes -sergeant with shotgun and combi-melta 9 scout bikes -sergeant with shotgun and combi-melta captain gets chapter master upgrade (im guessing I can use UMs 5+ to get CPs back on this?, do I roll once for all 3, or three times?) CPs used on hellfire shells, Telion sniper combo, means it hits on 2s. CPs also used on cluster mines, shooting benefits from chapter master rerolls. Fall back even at -1 to hit, with rerolls is still nice. Plan is for Land speeder storms to move up, target vehicles and transports. backed up by infiltrators with MLs/bolters Bikes mop up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 16, 2017 Share Posted August 16, 2017 Scout Bikes are downright amazing. Shoot th Shotgun, Twin Bolter and Grenade Launcher, charge the opponent, retreat to deal D3 MW with the Snare Mine Stratagem, then shoot him against with the UM CT :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 16, 2017 Author Share Posted August 16, 2017 They really are good. I know Idaho likes the idea of grenade launchers, I might try and shoehorn some in. With the chapter master rerolls to hit, they could potentially be brilliant. Failing that, a unit with just regular twin bolters gives you at close range 36 bolter shots, 18 shotgun shots, 2 bolter shots at -1 and a melta shot, all with rerolls for CM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 Ok so im in a bind, now I know I can use melta weapons on storms: I cant decide whether its more advantageous to use UMs or "counts as" salamanders. UMs means I get Telion, can fall back and fire and get CPs back on 5s. Sallies would mean all my melta weapons can reroll hits and wounds, and I have 11 in total historically im an ultra, and my models will be painted as such regardless, im thinking of actual tabletop rules to make my guys more effective. any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Telion mate. ;) Salamanders are good and all, but you hit the nail on the head with the CPs. Getting them back is cool and Space Marines need them to boost our table top presence. As an example, Hellfire shells, Cluster Mines, Flakk missiles, Auspex Scan, Honour the Chapter and Only in Death Does Duty End are all Strategums you'd benefit from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 yeah telion plus hellfire is a great way oF spending a CP a turn.. getting a third of them back is tasty. im still unsure of chapter master and whether those CP are refundable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Personally I wouldn't spend 3 on Chapter Master anyway as it just seems so expensive when you are already rerolling 1s. It's only a boost to reroll 2s as well, unless you're moving heavy weapons around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 Personally I wouldn't spend 3 on Chapter Master anyway as it just seems so expensive when you are already rerolling 1s. It's only a boost to reroll 2s as well, unless you're moving heavy weapons around. Moving heavy weapons does not make a difference, as re-rolls happen before modifiers. Even if you move a weapon that hits on 3+ and it hits on 4+, you still only re-roll 1s and 2s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 Indeed that is the case, but a rerolling 2s as well as 1s is important when you're missing on a 3+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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