Unit of the Week: Vindicators

[Acebaur]

This week we are talking about one of the heavy hitters of the Space Marines, the Vindicator. Formerly this tank seemed to strike such fear into opponents that it would be targeted first and foremost to the exclusion of almost all else. In previous editions it could also be gimped by blowing off that big gun, making it little more than a rolling box.  But now with the new vehicle rules that's all changed.

 

While blast templates are gone which a lot of folks are saying is bad for this tank, lets be honest, how many times did you get lucky and get that horde of guys under the blast template? Usually it was only 3-5 and then you had to deal with cover saves, mitigating the ability to take out strong units. Also against vehicles unless you got lucky and blew it up, you only did one damage. Now it has the potential to knock chunks of damage off of enemy units. 

 

With a nice price drop with the codex it's gotten even more appealing. So how are you using them this edition? Are you finding the change in templates to be good or bad? What strategies are you using?

 

 

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Vindicator00.png

[Extropian]

Sadly, as it has long been one of my favourite tanks, i have found it very weak so far. D3 shots isnt enough to really threaten much. Even D6 results in sub par results a lot of the time.

 

I DO want to try 3 out for the stratagem, but thats a lot of points for a gimmick.

 

Now...the Vindicator Laser Destroyer is a different beast entirely ;)

[Timur]

I swear I posted on a Vindi in 8th. thread already, but the codex did drop it's points.

 

The Vindicator went from: Omg I need one to pie plate-o-doom stuff to death, to: hey, I can shove this sturdy T8 vehicle in with these extra points.

 

Better at killing high T vehicles/dreads than before though.  Mine got fired for more dreadnought. (IH CT seem to be pushing IH's to spam dreads over vehicles).

 

I would be really surprised to see someone take 3, but if you do manage to use that stratagem, I want to see pictures of the damage=).

Edited August 2, 2017 by Timur

[Extropian]

I'd never take 3 in a proper list, but i want to see how much damage that actually causes at least a couple of times. Gut feel....not enough. But who knows, it's actually a pretty wide area of pain.

[Race Bannon]

Well, there is THIS thread comparing the stock Vindicator to the Laser Destroyer.  Then there is THIS thread that started the discussion before the Codex.  ^_^

[Firepower]

I have mixed feelings.  The Vindi has always been one of my favorite tanks, because of Tide.  It kept pace, was an 'imminent in your face kill me first or die' tank that drew fire off of the Crusader squads and LRC.  However, cover saves would turn a template over 10 Imperial Guard into 1 wound, and chain stunning them was sufficient to neutralize the whole tank.  

 

Catching big squads in the open and punishing them harshly, like Boyz or Gargoyles, is no longer all that great with the removal of templates.  However, it is somewhat balanced by the reduction of cover saves for those buggers that do hide, it will keep firing so long as it's alive, and there's the strategum replacing the formation, which didn't work if any one of the three Vindis was stunned.

 

But ultimately, I feel like the role of the Vindi has changed with the loss of templates.  It simply can't kill enough of a squad to qualify as a mass-extermination weapon any more.  It is, however, suddenly a nasty anti-monster/tank gun.  You can put big holes in big things, and with the stratagem put really big holes in things.  But the range is short enough that it risks being swamped by charging units as a counter.

 

I'll still take my darling Gestalt and Gallant twins on to the table, whenever I feel the odd itch to actually play a game.  But overall I think other tanks like the Las Pred have surpassed it now.

 

Also, toughness 8 is great.  It still has a place running along side my LRC. Putting a Marshal on a bike with the fancy Templar hat to spread around that re-roll aura and screen them is a trick I'm eager to try.  

 

But it doesn't seem the Siege Shield is a thing anymore?  

Edited August 2, 2017 by Firepower

[Ebon Hand]

Sadly no more siege shield. I wish it was implemented the way it was for the Land Raider Ares where you roll 3 dice instead of 1 per attack for close combat. That would give the Demolisher some more appeal for sure.

 

As it stands now it's a decent anti tank / anti T5 multi wound infantry (Wraithguard, Nobs, Bikes etc.) on a tough platform.

 

The Vindicators strategem seems nice for large groups of durable models, but the psychological threat if it will force savvy players to split those squads up, which is good as they will be no doubt be standing under some sort of buff aura otherwise.

[Firepower]

But aren't Preds just about as threatening, if not more so, to T5 models, without the risk of getting too close?

[The Unseen]

But aren't Preds just about as threatening, if not more so, to T5 models, without the risk of getting too close?

 

Laspreds wound T5 on 3+s, Demolishers wound T5 on 2+s, that's all.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

But aren't Preds just about as threatening, if not more so, to T5 models, without the risk of getting too close?

 

Laspreds wound T5 on 3+s, Demolishers wound T5 on 2+s, that's all.

 

 

I think I'll try vindicators in light of this discussion. I think it'll excel if shot at multi wound models like termies where even one hit will make irrelevant their wounds. And I hadn't realised their points had decreased.

[Frater Cornelius]

GW never seems to get the vanilla Vindicator just right to see competitive play :/

[Race Bannon]

True, but that's considering it from one angle.  In a narrative game, these may see more use ^_^

[Frater Cornelius]

True, but that's considering it from one angle.  In a narrative game, these may see more use

 

Few units represent the raw power of Marines as much as the Vindicator. There is a reason I am a fan of the IF Siege Vanguard lists. You can't get more \m/ METAL \m/ without going AoS

Edited August 29, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Gothical]

I hate the new change to template weapons, but then I often played on tables where I could force the opponents units out into open-but-narrow spots and obliterate them with a reasonably reliable shot. Thus the change to being D3/D6 shots is rather stark.

 

However, this thread has convinced me to give them a go... in my Iron Warriors! This is mainly because of the comment above about them being liable to getting swamped (especially if trying to use the SM/CSM stratagem) and CSM can take Cultists - which can even be fearless with nearby IW Warlord - to act as a cheap screen.

 

I wonder if this tactic could be replicated for Marines using a detachment of Guardsmen? Though I feel you'd be better off taking a Leman Russ Demolisher in that spot, as although the cannon is less accurate you can take a lot of supporting weaponry on the tank.

 

Overall I really worry about the penalty for moving and firing on such a short ranged gun. Randomised shots hitting on 4s (5s in the case of the Guard) do not inspire confidence. This is perhaps where the Stratagem comes in to effect, as it is not effected by movement. I also believe, as per the Rulebook FAQ/Designers Commentary that you can use the Stratagem even if you use Smoke Launchers or choose to Advance.

 

Otherwise, using them as a defensive pillbox might work given the relatively short gaps in Deployment Zones these days. You can deploy them fairly far forwards and with great arcs of fire, then support them with Tactical Squads that can keep them clear of chaff but also support the Vindicator's fire with Lascannons and Plasma Guns.

[Ishagu]

I think if they were D3+2 shots, and an extra D3 for every 5 models in an enemy unit you'd have a case for them.

[Firepower]

Yeah, completely random shot numbers are poopoo for any gun, barring maybe basic flamers (cheap enough to justify no set shot base count). I like the idea of uncapped d3 more shots per 5 models, too.

[Ebon Hand]

I like that idea too, it would give it decent anti horde for things like conscripts.

 

I think it should get the dozer blade back as an option too with the same stats as the Land Raider Ares has (S user, -1 AP, D6 Dam, Make 3 hit rolls for each attack vs Infantry if you charged).

 

If it's not competitive it might as well be fun.

[Gothical]

Yeah, completely random shot numbers are poopoo for any gun, barring maybe basic flamers (cheap enough to justify no set shot base count). I like the idea of uncapped d3 more shots per 5 models, too.

 

Isn't the "extra shots per 5 models" the thing that really breaks the Leviathan Grav-Flux Bombard (or is it that, combined with the insane vehicle/monster damage that makes it overpowered)? 

 

I think that all former blast/large blast models should have got a +(ROF) per 10 models type of rule, a few things have it (other than the Demolisher Cannons change from D3 to D6 I think all the other cases are Super Heavy-mounted weapons) and it would help give back all the guns the "bite" they feel like they are missing and would help curtail the horde issue somewhat. Or let damage carry over between models (another effect that is in-game but very rare) to represent massive amounts of shrapnel - getting D3/D6 shots isn't such a problem when one successful wound past armour will kill up to 6 single-wound models, though this is probably too powerful (potentially killing 3 Terminators for one failed 5+ Invulnerable is a little harsh, but equally that is the kind of casualties a Demolisher Cannon used to inflict).

Edited August 31, 2017 by Gothical

[RandomMarine]

I don't really think the grav-flux is op when you consider the cost of its the single unit that carries it

[Ebon Hand]

Nah, what makes it "OP" is the fact that it does so much damage to vehicles and is mounted on a durable body. 5 damage a hit is almost enough to drop a Land Raider in one round of shooting if it rolls a 3 for its shots, and at 18 inches. That's damage comparable with a Knight Titan.

 

I don't think it's truly op either, but it's undeniably strong and destroys things like Rhinos and Razorbacks almost effortlessly.