Did the new Codex or Edition completely nerf a unit/'s ?

[Firepower]

Thunderfire has a useful Stratagem against speedy stabby armies.  That's about it, really.  Meanwhile you have to take 3 Vindis to unlock their little trick. 

 

Yeah, I don't think my 3rd Vindicator can look forward to seeing a completed paint job anytime soon.  My poor babies

Edited August 20, 2017 by Firepower

[Ciler]

One flamer used to completely come close to wiping out a squad of densly packed guardsmen in cover. Lots of hits, wound on 3's, ignore armour and cover. Now it averages 3.5 hits, and doesnt ignore armour for a paltry couple of kills.

 

I feel like GW got a bit carried away with auto hits and overcosted the ability. I just don't rate flamers this edition

Let's pause there a second and review that assessment. Lots of hits, yes. Wound on 3+, yes. Ignore armour, yes if 5+. Ignore cover, yes if 5+.

 

One has to appreciate that you are making an alleged general argument over an actually very narrow set of favourable circumstances.

 

Yes, if a guard player had a large squad of guards densely packed into a forest, the old flamer would do a lot more damage than currently. In any other situation (say scions instead of guards, or the cover being a battlement instead of a forest) your argument collapses because the save rolls becomes exactly the same.

 

And besides, what the flamer may have lost offensively, it gets back defensively with D6 auto-hits instead of D3 during overwatch.

[Brother Captain Sirus]

Only if the charge starts within its 8" range otherwise you cant use it at all.

[Ciler]

That's true, and that's a problem because that's 1" too short for deep striking units. But that doesn't make the flamer useless.

[Death Dealer 101]

Sorry but the flamer just isn't as good as prevous editions, D6 hits results in a unsatisfactory number of hits 50% of the time.

[Ciler]

Not as good as, I can agree with ; it's your initial pronouncement of completely useless that I question.

[Timur]

I pronounced it useless.   (Inutilia Officio=)  I've only used them a few times for no real effect.  

 

I posted right after I played an opponent that was rocking flamers/H flamers in tacs. and razorbacks.  He fudged every D6 for those flamers the whole game.  I really felt bad for him.  

 

I've faced vindicators (used a vindi myself), whirlwinds, battlecannon, and thunderfire.   All of them seemed to be doing fine with the loss of templates.

The flamer seems more acute in it's lack off fulfilling it's prior role.

 

H. flamers can hurt vehicles now so that is a boost to it's damage, combi's shoot all game and can use both guns (combi-plas is boss now), but the regular flamer is the only thing that sticks out as meh.  I'm feeling it stick out worse than the grav-gun for having the least amount of cowbell for all the special weapons.

 

Hence the post, my sample size is the ppl. I play so I wanted to see what other ppl. thought.   Then I remembered starting this post.

 

@Ciler.  You make a very good point.  It would seem the regular flamer is best maximized as a defensive weapon (due to rules mechanics for overwatch).   But that then begs the question, do you want to take a weapon for a def. role? 

Edited August 20, 2017 by Timur

[Ciler]

@Ciler.  You make a very good point.  It would seem the regular flamer is best maximized as a defensive weapon (due to rules mechanics for overwatch).   But that then begs the question, do you want to take a weapon for a def. role? 

I usually wouldn't, but that's because I play an offensive style anyway, BT and all that. Plus my local meta has never had much in terms of low armour horde armies, so the flamer was never an amazing weapon for me in the first place.

 

I think much like any other weapons, it needs to be played to it's (relative) strength in the current ruleset. Sure it doesn't do what it used to, but then so do many other things. Who used lascanons back in 7th ? Suddenly they're everywhere again. So let's look at the flamer, what does it have that makes it special : auto-hits. How to maximise that with due consideration to the fact that it won't actually do much damage on anything (on account of having no AP) : saturation, it's like 3 bolter shots that won't miss.

[Gothical]

Thunderfire has a useful Stratagem against speedy stabby armies.  That's about it, really.  Meanwhile you have to take 3 Vindis to unlock their little trick. 

 

Yeah, I don't think my 3rd Vindicator can look forward to seeing a completed paint job anytime soon.  My poor babies

 

One thing I noticed early on is that the Thunderfire Cannon has picked up an AP over the Index variant which has made it far more appealing to me.

 

I really like the stratagem too, as although you receive a heft penalty To Wound, you only have to Hit for the movement shenanigans to take effect (minimum 4 shots at BS3+ makes that very reliable), and halving Movement Speed and Charges can be devastating (allowing one of your units to get the Charge bonus against Genestealers, for example, or forcing the opponent to advance within 8" of Flamer-laden Aggressors/Assault Centurions to reliably get the charge). Between this stratagem and the stratagem to interrupt the Combat order you can really take the punch out of an opponent's alpha-strike.

 

 

I've faced vindicators (used a vindi myself), whirlwinds, battlecannon, and thunderfire.   All of them seemed to be doing fine with the loss of templates.

The flamer seems more acute in it's lack off fulfilling it's prior role.

 

Could you elaborate on this a little please? I've been very wary of the D3/D6 Vindicator and rather upset with the D6 BS4+ Battle Cannon. I can see the Whirlwind working well with the 2D6/2D3 shots as that is at least fairly reliable (incidentally, which rounds have you felt were best, or does it genuinely vary based on opponent?), and the Thunderfire with 4D3 should be pretty solid. The Vindicator just doesn't seem worth it, nor does the stratagem (the enemy has to be really bunched up to hit more than one unit, then you have to roll a 4+/3+, then you get 3D3 Mortal Wounds) - but perhaps I underestimate it. At least you can no longer be "stun-locked", and the Vindicator is a pretty tough tank, so it is more usable than the old Formation, if (IMO) much less dangerous.

 

I still take Flamers, but I play Salamanders so can boost them - Flamestorm Cannons and Heavy Flamers become fairly good stop-gap anti-tank with +1 To Wound - and always take a Combi-Flamer on the Sergeant of any Flamer squad (or 2 Flamers in an Assault Squad). Having 2D6 of burny goodness gives the unit as a whole much better anti-infantry reliability.

[Timur]

@ Gothical: I posted, along with others, in the unit of the week vindi thread.(?)

 

Why I like the vindicator more than flamers. I don't use it anymore http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335428-1st-crack-at-2k-pts-of-sms-8th-edition/

,but when I did I found it to be much better at single target (D3 vs 1).  Also it's tough w/ high wounds and T8 (new AV14).

 

Also when it did have a pie plate, few people were dumb enough to allow me to hit a whole squad.  Plus remember scatter?

 

So if it works in your list I don't see it's rule change being a huge issue. 

 

I expect to see chaos use them.  Some old hats that I used to play and are trickling back and had a few.  (Iron Warriors)

Edited August 20, 2017 by Timur

[KhorneHunter57x]

Aside from the obvious (Salamanders), Flamers seem to be solid in an Ultramarines army - autohitting at short range and their Chapter Tactic go together like two things that go together, and between Guilliman's re-rolls, their Stratagem, and their Warlord Trait, you're more likely to have the command points and the ability to re-roll those d6 hits at a critical moment. Edited August 21, 2017 by KhorneHunter57x

[defl0]

Some point changes really hurt. Centurion Devastators and Storm Talons, for instance. But a lot more has been improved than weakened. Net gain.

They are almost exactly pointed as devs if you look at their costs of lascannons and "missile launcher" shots you can bring to the table.

 

Cents are actually really quite good as fire bases that you put in bunkers and bastions.

 

Really hard nut to crack

[Ciler]

I think dev cents in a bunker are a misuse. They have a special rule that allows them to advance and fire, I think they are better suited as a mobile fire base. Standard devs seem more as garrison.

[defl0]

In theory I agree. In use they are great with ultra Marines as they can fall back and fire.

 

I find them ok in cover with my Raven guard. But really if we are talking no bull:cuss, dreads are simply better more resilient weapon platforms than cents.

 

But you can pack a lot of cents in fortifications, so that's weirdly their niche.

[defl0]

As for units that got nerfed this edition...

 

Drop pods useless in a lot of legions. Why would Raven Guard ever use them? And they are basically heavy users of pods.

 

I also feel rhinos are useless compared to razor backs.

 

Other units that seems poorly pointed are assault Marines (vets are just better), basic bikes (although I haven't tried them with white Scars or Raven wing), intercessors, interceptors have all underperformed for their points for me

[Ebon Hand]

Why bikes? If you break them down, they're like 2 Tactical Marines per bike but with T5 and better move all for 1 more point than 2 tacs would cost. Then you can add special weapons into the mix.

 

Granted, they aren't objective secured, but melta bikes have performed decently for me.

[Firepower]

Yeah, I feel like bikes are a pretty good price for what they can do, and their durability.  

 

I wouldn't say Rhinos are useless compared to Razorbacks, either.  For those of us that wanna get up close and punchy, a 10 man unit is a better hit than a 6 man one, and Rhinos are significantly cheaper.  They have different jobs, despite both being Dedicated Transports.

 

I will however agree that Assault Squads are kinda pointless in light of Vanguard Vets, unless a 5 man unit hopping around with a pair of Flamers is particularly appealing for some reason.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Firepower

[JoshTheStampede]

It isn't, but a 5 man squad with 3 plasma pistols is pretty nice. If you need FA to fill a brigade.

[Ciler]

Drop pods allow you to deep strike stuff that can't deep strike otherwise, I fail to see how that is "useless".

 

Expensive, yes, presumably, but come on dropping pretty much anything you want in your opponent's backfield wherever and whenever you want without scatter. That's a huge asset. With the new rules, people will tend to put characters behind other units so they can't get shot at. If you have a pod they need to bubble wrap on both side. That's worth 100 pts easily.

[CCE1981]

Drop pods allow you to deep strike stuff that can't deep strike otherwise, I fail to see how that is "useless".

 

Expensive, yes, presumably, but come on dropping pretty much anything you want in your opponent's backfield wherever and whenever you want without scatter. That's a huge asset. With the new rules, people will tend to put characters behind other units so they can't get shot at. If you have a pod they need to bubble wrap on both side. That's worth 100 pts easily.

Compared to previous editions drop pods got hit pretty hard. My experience is 3rd - 5th edition, their accuracy was far superior. You always dropped just outside 1 inch of a unit, almost guarenteeing you landed where you wanted and very rarely could you not get within half range of a meltagun. At 9" away you effectively lost that accuracy in deepstriking.

[Ciler]

Yes, but that's necessary because on the flip side you can now charge out of the pod. Your melta alpha strikes becomes a little less reliable (in so far as you still get to shoot, but have to settle for low damage if your roll is unlucky, oh my) but then you can shoot characters and charge.

...

T1

...

In your enemy's deployment zone.

[CCE1981]

I actually never used it as an alpha strike device. Definitely a shock & awe disruption device with two Ironclads and a unit of Sternguard. I placed no faith in the Drop Pod rain lists, I even had someone that was flabbergasted that I didn't. To prove my point that it wasn't anywhere near as good as he thought I took his Chaos List and let him build the army he wanted to from the Space Marines Codex. I gave him first turn and chose to walk onto the table. (Remember at this point if something could come onto the table the game still went on) I tabled him in three turns. I lost maybe three Terminators in total.

[defl0]

Why bikes? If you break them down, they're like 2 Tactical Marines per bike but with T5 and better move all for 1 more point than 2 tacs would cost. Then you can add special weapons into the mix.

 

Granted, they aren't objective secured, but melta bikes have performed decently for me.

Bikes... What do you do with them? They are fast, but where are they going? They shoot like a wet sock. They fight even worse. SMs don't really have Fast characters you are trying to screen. Sure. They are kinda tough ish... But why pay the movement premium.

 

For the points, in most lists they are dead weight

[defl0]

Drop pods allow you to deep strike stuff that can't deep strike otherwise, I fail to see how that is "useless".

 

Expensive, yes, presumably, but come on dropping pretty much anything you want in your opponent's backfield wherever and whenever you want without scatter. That's a huge asset. With the new rules, people will tend to put characters behind other units so they can't get shot at. If you have a pod they need to bubble wrap on both side. That's worth 100 pts easily.

Fine. Convince me.

 

What unit is good enough that I should spend 100 point to deepstrike them in? 9" is to much of a risk for hth units, even with a re roll on the charge. 9" is to far for flamers and melta, so really we are looking at plasma squads.

 

Hellblasters? Sternguard? Cents?

 

Too expensive. Don't believe me?

 

Guard can do bs 3+ plasma for 9pts that deepstrike in...

 

If that's the game you want to play with Space Marines Raven Guard can do it for 1 cp. At least that's comparable.

[defl0]

I wouldn't say Rhinos are useless compared to Razorbacks, either. For those of us that wanna get up close and punchy, a 10 man unit is a better hit than a 6 man one, and Rhinos are significantly cheaper. They have different jobs, despite both being Dedicated Transports.

 

I will however agree that Assault Squads are kinda pointless in light of Vanguard Vets, unless a 5 man unit hopping around with a pair of Flamers is particularly appealing for some reason.

Sure. Maybe it's not pointed incorrectly. And yes it has a function. But really... What do you put in it? Assault Marines? Van guard vets? Command squads? Do u go shooty? Meltaguns or flamers? Good luck pulling that off.

 

It's the same issues with a drop pod but worse.

 

THAT SAID.

 

There are a lot of great tactics with rhinos, like character sniping, movable terrain, overwatch busting, etc. But you can do that with a razorback...

 

Maybe there is a rope a dope list of just mass rhinos and ob sec tacs? But I doubt it.

 

Personally, I haven't found a reason to use my rhinos.