C:SM (8th) UM Warlord Trait & Pre-battle Stratagems

[KhorneHunter57x]

Can an Ultramarines Warlord with Adept of the Codex (the UM-specific Warlord Trait) use it to gain the refund on Command Points spent on Stratagems used 'before the battle', such as Relics of the Chapter or Chapter Master?

 

As near as I can tell, the Warlord Trait is selected during army selection, before the Stratagems; however, it also states that the Warlord must be alive to use it, and I don't think anything is 'alive' before the battle.

 

Thoughts?

[CrimsonCorvidae]

I would say it can be used. 'Alive' seems to mean just that - whether he's in a teleportarium or deploying by jump pack or drop pod, he is 'alive'. It just so happens that most of the Traits can't be used unless other units are in an aura.

 

This ruleset is very literal in its wording. Another example of 8th's literalness can be seen in the Callidus assassin where, due to the finnicky nature of her special rule, it describes in more detail how her rule acts on CPs. In the C:SM they have taken a much shorter route by saying 'alive', and all models are 'alive' before they deploy, otherwise they can't deploy, right?

 

EDIT: Just to add that Traits are selected when you choose a Warlord. The CPs are used after deployment begins usually, but definitely after army selection. I mean, you can't CP a Chapter Master before you've selected a Captain or Warlord.

Edited August 6, 2017 by CrimsonCorvidae

[Withershadow]

Wouldn't that suggest that it can't be used?  Warlord traits are selected immediately before you start deployment, so long after army construction.  Per the latest GW official tournament rules, all pre-game command point expenditures are set in stone during army construction. 

[Gothical]

I can't get to my rulebook right now, but isn't there something about models not being on the table (be it reserves, transports etc.) not counting as part of the game for their abilities/wargear (hence not using psychic powers from transports, repairing whilst embarked, that sort of thing)? Under that logic, there is no Warlord present for the Warlord ability to trigger when you "spend" the Command Points before the battle, so you cannot recycle them.

[CrimsonCorvidae]

For me, the important word here is 'alive'. Another piece f evidence I would cite is the Callidus, where her ability works whether she is on the board or not.

 

There are definitely good points in your counter argument though, but I feel the debate currently comes down in the side of being able to. Be good to have FAQ clarity though, and no idea why they can't be specific in the first place.

[Rik Lightstar]

Is there a defined order for picking Warlord Traits and PreGame CP expenditure?

 

I know some people "pre-pick" but that doesn't change a specified order.

 

Rik

[Moonstalker]

Here's how I see it:

 

1. Traits are chosen immediately before deployment begins (page 186 BRB).

2. On page 187 BRB is the sole core mission, "Only War."  Here, you are instructed to deploy your armies, and then after deployment determine the total Power Level of all units that have been set up.  The Power Level section specifically uses the words "Before battle begins," showing that even after deployment, the battle has not yet begun.

3. The battle length is then defined as lasting five battle rounds - deployment is not included in battle length, it is specifically the battle rounds which constitute the battle.

 

So, one thing we can all agree on - once deployed, your Warlord is "alive" and on the table, and would have access to his special rules/warlord trait.  Right?  Past that, I think a strong case can be made for the battle not starting until the first battle round begins.  In this window, I think you can use the Chapter Master and Relics stratagems and be allowed to try and refund the CP you spend on them.  Probably still needs an errata just for clarity - the other missions in the book only talk about when the battle ends (they all repeat the Random Battle Length rules), but not when the battle begins in their Battle Length sections.