+++ Dark Raiders: Renegade Astartes for 8th +++

[Brother Aiwass]

I disagree about Huron. He's a decent character with lord stats that can cast two powers, one being Smite and one of your choice. You can select Diabolic Strength and then, with the Chaos Familiar stratagem, swap smite for any other power, say, Death Hex

Edited August 18, 2017 by Brother Aiwass

[Prot]

I disagree about Huron. He's a decent character with lord stats that can cast two powers, one being Smite and one of your choice. You can select Diabolic Strength and then, with the Chaos Familiar stratagem, swap smite for any other power, say, Death Hex

 

What do you mean you disagree? It appears you also think he's a good, economic choice???

 

I don't know about blowing CP's on swapping Smite though. :)

[Brother Aiwass]

Sorry Prot, I was referring to this bit: «While Huron won't knock anyone's socks off»

 

And he can with +2S +1A while droping enemy ininvulns.

 

Cheers.

[Prot]

Yes I guess that's always possible. I am trying to familiarize myself with those strategems for tonight lol

[Ulfast]

What do you guys/girls think about playing a renegade chapter instead of one of the legions? We seems to miss several weapons, strategum etc and gets only one; can advance and charge (which seems still pretty good in my book). Is it a drawback to play renegade?

 

Reason I ask is that I was going to play black legion but all that black colour seems hard for me to paint and I´m thinking perhaps crimson slaughter os somesthing similiar instead.

[Brother Aiwass]

I do think renegades is a good way to play a fast and close style army. If you like that playstyle. As for artifacts and strats, we still have access to most of them. The AoBF, Back Mace or Murder Sword are really nice, and we still may use marked stratagems such as Endless Cacophony, Fire Frenzy, Chaos Familiar, and so on.

 

I do think renegades are on a pretty good spot, with advancing berzerkers or havos.

 

The bad thing imo, is that our troops doesn't fully benefit from our trait: we can advance and charge with CSM, yes, but the number of assault weapons to be fired is limited (3 meltas or flamers at the most). 

 

I'm struggling to make a list with 2 Batallions with no cultists (I find hard to justify them in a non AL/WB/IW astartes army. I mean, in the concept army I have in my head (Dragon Warriors), but I'll eventually find a way to get those 10 CP (Huron included).

 

Xheers.

[Panzer]

I honestly don't see much of a reason to play Renegades over Alpha Legion or Night Lords for a mixed god army except for fluff reasons.

Advance&Charge is nice, but it ultimately is just an average of 3.5" more range on the turn you plan to charge (with exceptions like Bikes who always advance 6").

[Cryptix]

Some of us play for fun instead of choosing Legion rules based on power level :P.

 

Besides, my color scheme doesn't fit in with any of the 9 OG legions.

[Panzer]

Some of us play for fun instead of choosing Legion rules based on power level .

 

Besides, my color scheme doesn't fit in with any of the 9 OG legions.

As I mentioned, except for fluff reasons. ;)

[Lord Ragnarok]

Some of us play for fun instead of choosing Legion rules based on power level :P.

Besides, my color scheme doesn't fit in with any of the 9 OG legions.

I can justify any of the traits for my Red Corsiars with fluff/modeling tweaks. I suspect any war band not monotheistic could. I could have a night lord detachment and none of the minis will look like night lords. Thematically there are things that I want. I really want to represent human reavers(cultists) for example.

 

One of the other things I REALLY want to represent are standard Chaos line troopers which seem to be out of favor. Has anyone used them with the dark raider trait?

Edited August 19, 2017 by Lord Ragnarok

[The Traitor]

Renegades are all about versatility, we play fast and close, and we like to strike first, but that's it. AL on the other hand are better used as far as possible from the enemy (except for infiltrator units), while NL try to stack as many -1ld debuffs as possible and so play better as an MSU close combat army. Renegades offer more styles of playing and synergies with a wider variety of units, and I don't think they're inferior at all. That 3.5 inches can easily be the difference between making a charge or not, and usually you'll run more than once in a game, stacking 7", 10,5", 14" or more. I like a lot playing fast and mobile armies, so Renegades fit my style of playing. Sure, other legions may be easier to play, but I believe that in 8th ed we have the tools to at least equal everyone else with enough expertise.

 

And even though I arrive a bit late to the party, I do think that bikers are pretty good in renegade list. Able to carry 3 special weapons, 2 of which they can shoot even if the advance, and a CC weapon for the champion which gives them some punch in assault means that:

- They are perfect to carry the very short ranged flamers and meltaguns, making them very dangerous against hordes or tanks.

- With an effective movement of 20" they are the best unit in the Codex to capture far away objectives as needed.

- They can reliably get to the enemy backline on turn two AND charge, tying their vulnerable backline units (sometimes even turn one).

- A 3 man unit with a power axe champion will usually kill at least one infantry model, which will hurt against most backfield units, from devastators to dark reapers.

- T5 and 2 wounds allow them to endure a decent amount of overwatch.

Overall, I think that they serve three purposes in a normal army: grab objectives, tie units and kill the units they're specialised against (hordes if flamers or tanks if meltas), and the Renegade trait makes them better at the second always and situationaly at the other two (you can reach an objective with a charge move or clear it from enemies in CC and you can scratch off the last wound of a tank or kill enough enemies for a unit to flee in assault...). 

[Prot]

What gives Night lords an edge rules wise over renegades?

[Brother Aiwass]

Nothing in my book. Ld debuffs are nice and fluffy, and work well against non horde armies without Ld immunity. Different traits for different playstyles.

[Panzer]

What gives Night lords an edge rules wise over renegades?

In my book the -1 LD debuff is more worth than an addition 3.5" on the charge mostly.

The option to give a unit a -1 to-hit debuff protection and the WL trait (once per battle round you can re-roll a hit roll, wound roll, damage roll, advance roll, charge roll or saving roll) while having all the things Renegades could have makes them better than Renegades imo.

 

I'm not saying Renegades are bad, but if you want to play a mixed god army I think there are better options regardless whether you want to be close and personal or stay at range. The only valid reason for Renegades I see is if ones army doesn't fit the fluff of the other Legions rules.

[Brother Aiwass]

3,5" looks like nothing, but when you disembark its 3" plus 9,5" (advance) plus 7" (charge), for a total of 19,5" threat range which works against all armies, unlike NL :P

[The Traitor]

-1 ld is something easily negated (synapse, comissars, unique characters, 30 orks, etc...), -1 to hit only works against shooting, and the trait does almost nothing for support characters. So, as Brother Aiwass said, that 3,5" work against everyone compared to the more especific legion traits. Different styles of playing, and the NL's trick is pretty difficult to pull off actually, it sounds great on paper untill you realise that every army has its ways to mitigate moral, limiting a lot its use.

[Panzer]

Well I disagree but that wasn't exactly my point anyway. There's still Alpha Legion as well and being able to infiltrate some melee units for CP is definitely better than more 3.5" the turn you charge and since no army is exactly 100% melee their Legion trait should come in handy as well.

 

I'll stick with my opinion that for a mixed god army Renegades is not the best option and the only real reason to make your army Renegades is for fluff reasons. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Brother Aiwass]

Well, I think that a polytheistic renegade may work, with advancing zerks, double firing slaaneshi termies/oblits/havocs or nurgle with sorc support for -1 to hit :P (if that's the nurgle spell, which I'm not sure).

[The Traitor]

Well I disagree but that wasn't exactly my point anyway. There's still Alpha Legion as well and being able to infiltrate some melee units for CP is definitely better than more 3.5" the turn you charge and since no army is exactly 100% melee their Legion trait should come in handy as well.

 

I'll stick with my opinion that for a mixed god army Renegades is not the best option and the only real reason to make your army Renegades is for fluff reasons. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

While it is true that the AL stratagem is awesome as adelivery method, the number of units you can infiltrate is limited, and forces you to take a lot of troops to get those extra CP. Renegades on the other hand can spend more on our awesome generic tactics such as VotLW, Tide of Traitors (specially fan of this one because I can't help but imagine a tide of me's... I do have a problem :P) or Fury of Khorne, as well as the always useful re-rolls or charge interrupting. Different things, but not worse, it depends on what the player wants to play.

 

Also the AL Stratagem is useful for the opposite thing than their trait, which really bothers me...

[Panzer]

 

Well I disagree but that wasn't exactly my point anyway. There's still Alpha Legion as well and being able to infiltrate some melee units for CP is definitely better than more 3.5" the turn you charge and since no army is exactly 100% melee their Legion trait should come in handy as well.

 

I'll stick with my opinion that for a mixed god army Renegades is not the best option and the only real reason to make your army Renegades is for fluff reasons. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

While it is true that the AL stratagem is awesome as adelivery method, the number of units you can infiltrate is limited, and forces you to take a lot of troops to get those extra CP. Renegades on the other hand can spend more on our awesome generic tactics such as VotLW, Tide of Traitors (specially fan of this one because I can't help but imagine a tide of me's... I do have a problem ) or Fury of Khorne, as well as the always useful re-rolls or charge interrupting. Different things, but not worse, it depends on what the player wants to play.

 

Also the AL Stratagem is useful for the opposite thing than their trait, which really bothers me...

 

But how many units do you NEED to infiltrate? One or two units of Berzerker or any other potent melee unit should definitely be enough to keep the enemy busy to get into melee with your other units...if you have more than those two melee units that is.

The Stratagem is not supposed to let your whole army infiltrate, only few key units. ;)

 

I also don't see the problem between their Trait and their Gem. One lets you get real close before the game begins so you can blast stuff away, occopy some midfield objective, deny reserves in a big area or just get into melee real quick. The other protects your units until they are real close. Since you can't (and shouldn't) infiltrate your whole army there will be enough units that will benefit from the Trait unless the enemy plays heavily on reserves and flyer to get in your face turn one.

[Brother Aiwass]

I'm afraid Renegades can't use VoTLW.

[The Traitor]

@sfPanzer: if I played AL (and I will soon to try them out) I would at least infiltrate some characters with those zerkers to give them buffs and, if you're trying to get into cc you'll try to be less than 12" away as much as possible, and inside a rhino when you're not, so the -1 to hit won't apply much.

 

I FINALLY had my first game with the new codex yesterday and it was awesome. It was my renegades against a friends Iron Warriors, so we got to test a lot of things, and chaos is looking much better now. Ironically after talking so much about them at the end I didn't use any bikers or possessed in my list, but istead used 4 rhinos with five zerkers and five rubric marines with warpflamers, 3 units of ten cultists, a DP with wings, talons and the elixir, and a sorcerer with jump pack for some support. The combo of warpflamers and zerkers coming out of arhino was awesome and in turn 2, when all of my units disembarked, I easilly killed 3/4 of the enemy army. Being able to run after coming out of the rhino gave me a huge threat range and I warptimed my cultist in turn one, which thanks to the 9 inches that I got from running twice, moved a total of 21" and charged two units of havocs, tying them up and allowing my rhinos to arrive almost unmolested. The elixir also worked great on my DP, who killed another DP and five termitars before getting focused down by meltad. Also, as @Brother Aiwass said, I realised that not only you can't use VotLW on shooting attacks, but Renegades can't use it at all! I guess it is my fault for not reading it earlier, but my opponent pointed it out the first time I was going to use it and I was completely bummed... That is really going to hurt the renegades. About the psychic powers I didn't get to use the new ones, as I had no big unit worthy of one of the god-specific buffs, my DP already had S and A 8 so the other buff didn't make much sense and my sorcerer never got within 6" of an enemy character to use gift of chaos. Overal however the Renegade trait was VERY useful to me, and the price reduction on rubrics made them feel much more worth it, so I'm really happy with how chaos is doing right now. Only problem is that I'm going to a tournament soon which doesn't allow the use of codices to balance things out, so I'll be stuck with using the index for a while...

[Brother Aiwass]

Toying with a list.

 

Battalion - 1989/2000 points - 7 CP

 

Huron

Lord in TDA, combi-plasma, power axe

Chaos sorc in TDA, combi-plasma, force axe, Delightful Agonies, Prescience

 

Chaos terminators (10), combi-plasma, power maul

Khorne Berzerkers (8), chainaxes, rhino

Khorne Berzerkers (8), chainaxes, rhino

Khorne Berzerkers (8), chainaxes, rhino

 

Chaos Space Marines (5), Lascannon

Chaos Space Marines (5), Lascannon

Chaos Space Marines (5), Lascannon

 

Predator Annihilator (1)

 

Theoretical:

 

CSM sit on the back in cover taking pot shots at enemy armor, along with the predator. Rhinos rush forward and the terminators drop where they can be more annoying (everybody but Huron and Zerks is Slaanesh).

 

Problems I see with this list;

 

Too much units, almost guaranteed to go second.

Low count troops.

No DS mitigation.

No place for an Exalted Chap.

No place for my Deredeo :(

 

The good things;

 

Target saturation. The enemy should have a bad time when focus firing -goes for the hungry rhinos? Or the 10 FnP terminator squad? My troops?

 

Things I'd left out and would love to include:

 

Exalted Chap, Deredeo, 2x3 (or 1x6) flamer bikes, 5 khorne melta-termies, a Dark Apostle.

 

Share your thoughts on this approach, fellow renegades.

[The Traitor]

Well, the main problem I see with the list is that you invest FAR too many points in terminators. 10 terminators all with combi-weapons with a chaos lord and a sorcerer both with combi weapons too... That must a huge portion of your points. It is true that you get kind of a nice alpha strike with that many rerollable plasma shots and the slaanesh stratagem but still I think that it is a far too big investement. This said, there are some changes I would make to optimise the list without removing the terminator core:

- Instead of playing the chaos lord and sorcerer with terminator armour, play them with jump packs. They wouldn't have a 2+ save, but they can hide inside the terminator unit and can still DS.

- Maybe even remove the lord completely. If you cast Prescience your plasmas already can't explode, and this would defenitely give you enough points for an exalted champion. You would be relying more on prescience being succesful, but you can always burn a CP to re-roll it and istead of focussing so many points on the terminators, you spread them around, reinforcing your target saturation advantage.

- Play the zerkers with chainaxes AND chainswords instead of just chainaxes, the amout of attacks they make like that is insane.

 

Including the Deredeo would most probably mean replacing the predator, but with those changes you should be able to include a Dark Apostle or Exalted Champion, maybe both, or some bikers.

[Panzer]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Those Icons need to be emotes so we can make lists more readable more easily!

Edited August 26, 2017 by sfPanzer