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Is this the first time space marines have lost options?


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#1
Calyptra

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I've seen a fair amount of discussion go by about bikes and honor guard and the new codex, but I realized that I don't think I've seen the stock response (true or not) to this sort of discussion, which is, "GW have always done this."

And then I realized that I genuinely don't know, so I'm asking.

Have Space Marines never lost options or had models invalidated with a new codex before?

If not, that's astonishing. Space Marines have gotten a codex every edition from 3rd on, right? That's a lot of codices to not lose stuff in.

For context, my army has gotten a new codex every other edition (so I'm probably going to be using my Index til 9th), and every time options have been removed and models invalidated.

("GW have always done this.")

To be clear, I think this is a Bad Thing. I am absolutely not saying that you shouldn't complain about losing options or having models you can't use anymore because it's happened to other people in the past. I think you should complain, because I think it's one of the worst things GW does.

I'm just wondering whether or not Space Marines players have gone through this before.

#2
Zhiv

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Going to 3rd from 2nd characters lost access to bikes - briefly, the 3rd edition 'index' didn't allow them, but then came the codex and returned the option.   On the other hand, from 2nd to 3rd Marines lost Tarantula gun platforms.  


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#3
KhorneHunter57x

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I don't think Space Marines have suffered too much in that regard - sure, minor options here and there have changed, but I don't think it's been too significant. Also, most of what they've lost has been units that never had an official model, and therefore required a kitbash or conversion.

The army that comes to mind as far as 'GW taketh away' is the Astra Militarum - they've lost characters, vehicles, even their old name.

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#4
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Going to 3rd from 2nd characters lost access to bikes - briefly, the 3rd edition 'index' didn't allow them, but then came the codex and returned the option.   On the other hand, from 2nd to 3rd Marines lost Tarantula gun platforms.  

We also lost Lieutenants and Rapiers ^^


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#5
Sete

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Black Templars lost a codex lol.
With it vows, relics, a couple units.

Edited by Sete, 08 August 2017 - 04:01 PM.

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#6
Toxichobbit

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They've lost loads of stuff in the past. This current cropping of options in the Codex isn't new, it's just being vocalised a lot more than in the past. What is new though, is that this is the first time where GW haven't said "Lost options? Tough, deal with it." and allowed us to keep the options, albeit outside of the Codex. That doesn't stop all the saltiness and cries of doom about this being Marines retirement for Primaris. I guess a lot of people playing today don't remember/weren't around for previous Codex shake ups, understandable as the last decade has been fairly consistent, The early Marine Codexes though, often changed a lot. Sometimes more than the change from 7th-8th.

 

This stuff is just off the top of my head. I'm certain there's more, I'd have to dig through my Codexes to check though.

 

1st - 2nd: fruity weapon options (eg shuriken catapult, needle sniper rifle on power armour etc), character ranks (Lt, Lt Cmdr) although these didn't translate directly into the rules, there was some granularity of character profiles. 2nd did away with all the different ranks and replace them with Sgt, Captain and Chapter Master. Also, Marines didn't really have a Codex in 1st ed so I guess this doesn't count.

 

2nd - 3rd: weapon options (hand flamers, power weapons in Assault Squads, autocannons on Devastators, various fruity grenades* etc), Apothecary, Techmarine, Company Standard & Veteran Sergeant as "independent" characters, Rapier laser Destroyer, Tarantula, Thudd Gun, Mole Mortar, different levels of Chaplain and Librarian.

 

3rd - 4th: weapon options (las-plasma Razorback and probably some other stuff that didn't have models anymore), different levels of Hero (Leader, Commander, Force Commander), Salamanders Codex and relevant options (heavy flamer sponson Preds, thunder hammer Chaplain *never forget* etc).

 

4th - 5th: the damn book bindings the day after I bought it! sorry ...different levels of Chaplain and Librarian (again), 10 man Command Squads, Terminator Command Squads, Chapter Traits (doesn't seem big unless you're one of those people that had an Apothecary modelled for every squad or double special weapon Tactical Squads).

 

5th - 6th: weapon options (auxilliary grenade launcher, maybe some more), the entire Black Templar Codex and all it's connected options.

 

6th - 7th: Master of the Forge, though Techmarines became an HQ so this wasn't really a loss. 6th - 7th was pretty consistent to be honest.

 

7th - 8th: I don't think I need to cover this one.

 

There's also lots of little changes that I skipped. Some weren't really relevant as they were just options that weren't modelled on, others meant snapping off weapons and replacing them or even dropping entire models from your army. As you can see, it's got better over the years with GW doing less big changes. For 1st Company Vets like myself we remember the times when editions would invalidate chunks of our army. The change from 7th - 8th feels tame in comparison (ask a 13th Company Wolves player who lived through 3rd - 4th!) so I kinda look at all the gnashing of teeth and cries of doom with bemusement. For anyone who joined in 5th or later, you're used to a more stable rotation of Codexes through editions, so I can see why the things dropped from 7th/Index Imperium 1 to the Codex could be a shock.

 

* fear the anti-plant grenades you cover camping Xenos!

 

Edit: fun fact. At the advent of 3rd GW stores did a weapon armistice where you could go into the store, trade your old power weapons, hand flamers, plasma pistols etc (snapped off sad.png)from Assault Squads and get free bolt pistols and chainswords to replace them.


Edited by Toxichobbit, 08 August 2017 - 04:08 PM.

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#7
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The Blood Angels lost Terminator Priests from fifth to sixth.

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#8
Ciler

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Can't remember if it was 2nd or 3rd edition that had the warp grenade ?

 

I'm actually almost glad that's gone, that stuff was lethal.


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#9
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Shrike's Wing verymad.gif. (Granted they were just VV with double LCs but also had special rules).



#10
Canadian_F_H

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Can't remember if it was 2nd or 3rd edition that had the warp grenade ?

I'm actually almost glad that's gone, that stuff was lethal.


I'm sure it was 2nd. 3rd stripped out all the crazy grenades.

#11
Toxichobbit

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2nd was the Vortex Grenade, is that what you mean? It made a reappearance in Apocalypse 5th ed, I think. Or did you mean the Virus Grenade (again 2nd), because that was an absolute crime against gaming.



#12
curvacious

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Was there a codex, I think fifth edition, when tactical sergeants couldn't get lightning claws or thunder hammers?

#13
Ciler

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2nd was the Vortex Grenade, is that what you mean? It made a reappearance in Apocalypse 5th ed, I think. Or did you mean the Virus Grenade (again 2nd), because that was an absolute crime against gaming.

That's it yes. It made a large explosion vortex that randomly moved around the table using the scatter dice and instant-killed anything it went through, if memory serves.


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#14
Toxichobbit

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Was there a codex, I think fifth edition, when tactical sergeants couldn't get lightning claws or thunder hammers?

 

Yeh, that was 5th. 2nd too, although it was all power armour that couldn't use lightning claws & thunder hammers in 2nd.

 

 

 

2nd was the Vortex Grenade, is that what you mean? It made a reappearance in Apocalypse 5th ed, I think. Or did you mean the Virus Grenade (again 2nd), because that was an absolute crime against gaming.

That's it yes. It made a large explosion vortex that randomly moved around the table using the scatter dice and instant-killed anything it went through, if memory serves.

 

 

Yeh, that's the one. I used to run a Vortex Detonator on a bike sergeant in 2nd specifically to go hunting them and make them explode in people's pocket. I also remember one in a game of 5th Apoc. It went off the table and as there was no rules for that happening the GM decided it would come back on the opposite table edge, like an angry warp fuelled pacman.


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#15
Wargamer

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What's throwing a lot of people for a loop is not remembering the last great rules shift.

Despite being called 8th Edition, this is NOT 8th. It's version 3.0.

3rd through to 7th were all the same games at their core. The rules changed a little, but the fact is that you could still play 7th with a 3rd Edition Codex.

This kind of upheaval happens when you make actual editions different from each other in a meaningful way.
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#16
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RT or 2nd used to have options for Las pistols and a few xenos weapons, if I remember correctly
Also, a few named characters have come and gone (Xavier, Moriar, uh...the IF guy)

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#17
Wargamer

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Character wise Sergeant Lysander is gone, obviously. As is Captain Corteaz and Chaplin Xavier. All had rules in 3rd but I don't think they were around in 4th onwards.
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#18
curvacious

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Was there a codex, I think fifth edition, when tactical sergeants couldn't get lightning claws or thunder hammers?

Yeh, that was 5th. 2nd too, although it was all power armour that couldn't use lightning claws & thunder hammers in 2nd.

Yeah in third edition there still weren't models for it, it just happened to be in the armory.

It is complete n o n s e n s e that there are power armor lightning claws. It's fine when people build them but it's not something I'm ever going to do.

Idk what the first appearance was, there was the raptor lord, the medusa edition Sicarius, Shrike, maybe the sword brethren or one of the veterans sets. I think it was a few years into third.

Oh IA Raven guard had an ink drawing of a veteran with some kind of garden implement on his power fist slashing at a farseer.

Edited by curvacious, 09 August 2017 - 08:46 PM.


#19
Arganias

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Space Marines also lost the Salamander's Chaplain Xavier between 3rd and 4th edition. I am not sure why either, I am pretty sure he had a model.



#20
Tannarak

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Tyrannic War Vets had a data sheet.

At one point, I think, The Emperor's Champion was temporarily allowed by all loyalist chapters.

The "Roc" Pattern Storm Eagle from Forge World is back being a "Minotaurs-Only" unit (although the model doesn't change from pattern to pattern)

Bionics doesn't seem like an upgrade anymore either.



#21
curvacious

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At one point, I think, The Emperor's Champion was temporarily allowed by all loyalist chapters.


Weirdly the only time he was in a vanilla codex it made him Templars only. Then when black templars got their first army list, you could use that book to give him to any vanilla chapter back in the original book.

People are like seventh edition is clunky there are too many supplements.

#22
Toxichobbit

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At one point, I think, The Emperor's Champion was temporarily allowed by all loyalist chapters.


Weirdly the only time he was in a vanilla codex it made him Templars only. Then when black templars got their first army list, you could use that book to give him to any vanilla chapter back in the original book.

People are like seventh edition is clunky there are too many supplements.

 

 

It was before the Black Templar Codex. When the 25th Anniversary Emperor's Champion was released GW allowed him to be used by all Chapters which then carried on into Codex: Armageddon. Black Templars didn't get their own Codex till 4th and he was back to being Templar exclusive by then, as he should be. I still have my converted Salamanders Emperor's Champion somewhere.



#23
Ciler

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But anyway, in short and to answer the iniitial question, this is by far NOT the first times marines have lost options. In fact, there have been worse cases where marines have lost options but also models (especially characters).


And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. Revelations 6:8
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#24
curvacious

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I even have that article. He's right there fighting metal Cadians on a space station.

But as he should be? There was a brief time when the generic space marine was what a Black Templar is now.

#25
Freman Bloodglaive

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That said, every chapter can take an Emperor's Champion now. Just take a 1HQ detachment (costs 1CP) make it a Black Templars Emperor's Champion.


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