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Fluffy and unfluffy choices for Salamanders.

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#1
Minsc

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Sorry if this thread has been made before, but I didn't see it.

 

What are considered fluffy and unfluffy choices (weaponry and units) for Salamanders?
I know they value resilience and stoicism, and dislike fast units which focus on maneuverability. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong:
 

Fluffy:

- Thunder Hammers.

- Storm Shields.

- Flamer-weaponry.

- Melta-weaponry.

- Aggressors with Flamestorm Gauntlets (apparently)

- Assault Centurions.

- Assault Terminators (With said Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields.)

- Battletanks in general (Rhinos, Razorbacks, Predators, Vindicators, Stalkers, Hunters)

- Landraiders, especially the Redeemer.

- Techmarines (I assume, given their prevalence for vehicles.)

 

Unfluffy:

- Land Speeders.

- Bikes

- Flyers (?) 

- Drop Pods (?)

- Assault Marines (with Jumppack?)
- Vanguard Veterans (with Jumppack?)
- Scouts (Not unfluffy per se, afaik we just don't have very many of them?)


What are their opinion regarding other tools of war, such as Dreadnaughts, Devastators, Artillery, Sternguard Veterans, Tactical Terminators, Librarians, Chaplains, the other various Primaris Marines, etc? For? Against? Indifferent?

Is there any sort of weaponry that they avoid if they can help it?


Edited by Minsc, 08 August 2017 - 06:07 PM.


#2
Custodian Athiair

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I think Dreadnoughts are quite fluffy, that's just me. I feel with the artisans around a load could be built/maintained. Also I think that Salamanders would be too stubborn to succumb to injuries so there are plenty who could be interred. 

 

Chaplains are very fluffy, their the people who preach the Promethean Cult and inspire the marines around them to battle through the fires.

 

Part of me thinks that Primaris are still are little iffy to the old guard, especially the Firedrakes (Tu'Shan etc). I think they might see it as a slight on their honour that they can't push back against the chaotic universe and defend the Imperium with what they already had. And accepting the Primaris into their ranks is showing that they aren't as independent and self-reliant as the Promethean Cult says they should be.

 

Also personally a massive fan of Tactical Terminators (can get the heavy Flamers in to make it more flame-y), but I like the idea of them dropping in and laying down a hail storm of fire as the rest of the army presses from the front. Kind of a Hammer and Anvil idea with the main battle line in Rhinos being the oppressive anvil squeezing the enemies front, and then Tactical Terminators acting like a hammer of retribution and obliterating the enemy in the back


 

Probably heretical due to the Plague Zombie problem springing up in the 41st Millenium.
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#3
Ogun

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I would agree with most of the suggestions. 

 

I don't think assault marines are necessarily unfluffy for the Salamanders, particularly if the squad is packing a flamer. Vanguard though less so though. The Firedrakes do Sternguard formations, but you get the impression that Vanguard is not really their style. If they want to hit people they like their Terminator armour...

 

Librarians are very fluffy! 

 

I don't think there is any reason Drop Pods would be unfluffy. As far as I am aware there has never been any mention of them not liking them, and in fact there are several incidences of them using them (Helsreach springs to mind). In fact being able to drop lots of infantry squads straight into melta and flamer range is arguably very much in their favour. 

 

Devastators are fluffy to a degree. If memory serves the original Armageddon Codex list made Salamanders unique among marines factions in 3rd ed. in allowing Salamander devastator sergeants to carry signums. Not unique anymore of course.

 

The rest of the Primaris really is a bit too soon to tell. My instinct would be that the Salamanders would be wary, though they will use them. Since they seem to add them to pre-existing companies I get the impression that they use them as additions rather than forming a force in bulk.


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#4
Medicinal Carrots

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The only things that are really unfluffy are bringing lots of bikes, jump packs, speeders, or scouts. Salamanders have and use all of those, they just have fewer and/or don't get a chance to train with them as much so don't use them as often. Bringing a unit with jump packs, bikes, or a few speeders is perfectly fluffy.  Just not half your army.

 

Salamanders are noted as being practical. They'll use the tools the situation requires, so Devastators, Dreadnoughts, artillery, drop pods, or really anything splashed into your army without being spammed is fluffy.

 

They like flamers, meltas, hammers, and getting up close. They don't use those exclusively, though. Swords and plasma show up on Pellas Mir'san and Harath Shen, and in several bits of official artwork. Long range weaponry definitely gets used when it's appropriate.

 

Salamanders have a relatively high number of veterans, and a higher number of suits of Terminator armor. Vanguard vets would get used, but are not really something they'd use a lot of. Pretty much any Terminators are fluffy, since they've got plenty and like to use them. Back in Codex Armageddon, Salamanders had a single Terminator squad where you could kit them as tacticals, hammer/shield assaults, or mix and match in the same squad. They couldn't take lightning claws, and the only heavy ranged weapon they could take was a heavy flamer.

 

As for Primaris, they're still relatively new. Salamanders are generally deliberative and a bit stubborn. The Primaris are freshly forged, and not by the Salamanders' hands.  I see them using the Primaris, but incorporating them slowly. They would test them out in the fires of battle to see what they're capable of, looking for strengths and weaknesses, and for which tools incorporate well with Salamander methods and tactics, and which would be used less frequently.


Edited by Medicinal Carrots, 09 August 2017 - 11:22 AM.

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#5
KhorneHunter57x

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Although I don't play Salamanders, my opinion is that as a Codex Chapter, and one of the Chapters with a more practical attitude, there wouldn't really be anything truly unfluffy.

Sure, they might prefer certain ways of war, but as masters of the Forge they would know that there is always the correct tool for a job.


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#6
God-Potato of Mankind

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Nothing is unfluffy, but a tendency to have a greater proportion of hammers, flamers and meltas. So you can still run lots of Land Speeders, but they would be fluffiest with heavy flamers and multimeltas etc
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#7
Claws and Effect

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Salamanders would absolutely use Vanguard squads.

They would be Firedrakes wearing artificer armor instead of Terminators. Thunder hammers and storm shields are an option for Vanguard as well.

When would they do that? Basically any time they anticipate a lot of melee combat somewhere the TDA would be too bulky.

They would probably skip the jump packs though.
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#8
Custodian Athiair

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Salamanders would absolutely use Vanguard squads.

They would be Firedrakes wearing artificer armor instead of Terminators. Thunder hammers and storm shields are an option for Vanguard as well.

When would they do that? Basically any time they anticipate a lot of melee combat somewhere the TDA would be too bulky.

They would probably skip the jump packs though.


Valid point, often forget Vanguard without jump packs are an option.

Well I am getting some Vanguard soon now...

 

Probably heretical due to the Plague Zombie problem springing up in the 41st Millenium.
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#9
Dr. Clock

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As noted, Salamanders have access to and use all Astartes wargear and units.They use 'fast stuff' and scouts less often, but it's definitely there. Salamanders are generally themed by the things they choose to take, rather than what they avoid - flamers and meltas in profusion is the name of the game, as well as hammers and 'artificer weaponry'.

 

My Sallies are themed to have many Dreadnoughts and Terminators, and to be mechanized. I have not collected the things that are generally avoided, but over the years I've had designs on a unit of attack bikes, for instance.

 

The one thing I'd expect ALL Salamanders armies of any significant size to include (aside from Tacs obviously) would be Devastators. While nominally a Codex Chapter in terms of unit designations and equipment, remember that Salamanders maintain significantly more Devs and fewer Assault units than other chapters; one additional Dev (and Tac) squad in each Battle Company as well as 'mixed' reserve companies that contain no Assault units whatever: http://www.bolterand..._548_154053.jpg

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor


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These are the droids we are looking for.

#10
Irbis

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People here debate Dreadnoughts? Really? You guys know half of named Sally characters available in tabletop are Dreadnoughts, yes? whistlingW.gif



#11
Jagus Kumkani

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I have two Land Speeders and a squad of Scouts in my army. They are there when the need to use them arises. But generally speaking, I take lots of flamers and meltas, Assault Terminators, and Devastators. I've tailored my army to be mechanized and really shooty.


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#12
Chainsword Cookie

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I have the imperial half of the Dark Imperium boxset and I will make them Salamanders. 

My idea is to expand the list with the most logic ans fluffwise options which I think are: 

 

- Aggressors with Flamers

- Sternguard with melta/flamer weaponry (someone has to babysit the Primaris)

- Scouts (because Sally scouts look awesome and we need all the new blood we can get)

- Land Raider - Redeemer

- Chaplains

- Librarians

- Dreadnoughts

 

I recall the old lore which said that due to their advanced forges the Salamanders have a vast stockpile of things which other chapters struggle to come by, namely terminator armor, land raiders, dreadnoughts and advanced weaponry.


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#13
Knight of the Raven

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Nocturne's Time of Trials, which is basically a tectonic apocalypse happening regularly because of the combination of a thin crust and a moon nearly as big as the planet is, brings several mineral resources out of the mantle. Trading all of these, in addition to allowing the population to buy back the cattle that has been terminated either by the earthquakes and volcanic eruptions or years-long winter caused by the latter's smoke, gives the Salamanders a very priviledged position with the Adeptus Mechanicus that lets them purchase anything they can't produce themselves. And since they descend from a smith primarch, there's very little they can't actually produce.

 

This preferential relationship with the Adeptus Mechanicus, possibly strengthened with gratitude, deals and oaths from the Great Crusade, may be the reason the Salamanders are much more knowledgeable about how to create and repair things that other Chapters besides the Iron Hands can only dream of. Their regular battle brothers can take care of their own wargear and even embellish or improve it, and it's only natural the space marines who actually went to study on Mars are even more skilled. I don't know if they can create terminator armor, to name one example, but they're certainly more capable of maintaining and repairing it than less technological Chapters, which leads to more suits of tactical dreadnought armors in their vaults.

 

That said.

 

As much as Nick Kyme propels the lexical field of the Promethan Cult over a shark in the Tome of Fire trilogy, as much as fire and its purifying quality are part of this same dogma, that doesn't mean you have to use flamers, meltaguns and thunder hammers everywhere it's allowed by the army list. For example, the Salamanders invented the Prometheus Land Raider, not the Redeemer, and that tank doesn't feature any of the weapons they're supposedly obsessed with. Similarly, I can't imagine the Sternguard's special issue ammunition to be easy to manufacture, so regular bolters in high numbers are evidence enough of the Chapter's technological might.

 

In the old lore, bikes, land speeders and jump packs were limited in use and numbers because they were hard to train with properly because of Nocturne's capricious gravity, but I believe it's not been mentioned in ages, so it might have been discreetly phased out of existence by now. Which conveniently prevents the Primaris' gravtech to have justification for not being bought used...


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#14
Claws and Effect

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It was never said that they don't use Land Speeders and jump packs at all, just that they rarely fielded them.

That could be just as much a case of they just don't fit their favored tactics very well.

#15
Knight of the Raven

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I never said they never used them either, unless I rolled a one on my writing check. They even use a Land Speeder Storm to ferry aspirants about on Nocturne in the novel of the same name, if I recall correctly. And like I said, I've not seen it mentioned since their Index Astartes article, though if memory serves rules about this shortage extended to the space marines codex's rules of the next edition, the one with customizable chapter traits.

 

And Salamanders are pragmatic. I can totally see them go "oh, what a shame, our gravity prevents us to use wargear we don't like in the first place. How inconvenient. Let's pawn them off to the Raven Guard in exchange for future favors."



#16
Xisor

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I like the idea that *where there is a choice*, Salamanders tend to opt for Meltaguns and Flamers. E.g. they carry a surplus of those (and their ammo), for times when it's a relatively open question. Which isn't always, probably not even common.

That said: given their "never give up" attitude (some might say underlying personality inclination encouraged by the geneseed), they may find themselves more often reduced to low-supply/emergency situations where their predilection for flames comes at a cost that wouldn't be paid if they were a little bit more obsessed with, say, preparing for *everything*.

Does that make sense? We're talking about edge cases, really.

I also really like (but struggle to live) the idea that Kyme's overegging of fireforged dragonhammers is actually indicative of the Salamanders' obsession: e.g. it's genuinely what they call everything, *and they're good at naming things*! So the cultural fashion has flamehammer and dragonsword as the epitome of inventive naming, where giving something a colourful or enigmatic name is just... crass?

That's never been directly mentioned in Kyme's work that I could see, but if it is as he intended, then I owe him a lot of pints (or other beverages) by way of apology!

#17
Claws and Effect

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People here debate Dreadnoughts? Really? You guys know half of named Sally characters available in tabletop are Dreadnoughts, yes? whistlingW.gif


Technically a third, though the 3rd one does not actually have a model. Captain Pelias Mir'San is a playable Forge World character.

#18
Aothaine

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I dunno. I agree that melta guns and flamers are weapons that are used frequently in Salamanders artwork and their stratagem works best with flamers. However, as many have said above, they are practical and will take what is needed for the job. I would honestly say that nothing is un-fluffy for Salamanders. If the job requires that they all drop in with jump packs and drop pods or requires significant siege warfare then they will bring what is needed to complete the task.

 

I always imagine most games that are played are just a snap-shot of the battlefield. So the rest of the battle contains other parts that you don't include in your list. So bring what you want and enjoy. happy.png


Edited by Aothaine, 20 April 2018 - 04:08 PM.

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#19
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I dunno. I agree that melta guns and flamers are weapons that are used frequently in Salamanders art work and their stratagem works best with flamers. However, as many have said above, they are practical and will take what is needed for the job. I would honestly say that nothing is un-fluffy for Salamanders. If the job requires that they all drop in with jump packs and drop pods or requires significant siege warfare then they will bring what is needed to complete the task.

 

I always imagine most games that are played are just a snap-shot of the battlefield. So the rest of the battle contains other parts that you don't include in your list. So bring what you want and enjoy. happy.png

 

That is a real interesting way to look at it.



#20
Yale

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There's been a lot of good replies already.

There aren't any weapons or units the Sallies object to in 40K, everything has it's place. The only really uncharacterful or anti-background choice is assault squads in the 2 reserve companies - they don't have any. (I'm assuming the new close support squads are treated the same.)

Flyers have never been mentioned in regards to the Salamanders. So in my head-canon the flyers get heavy use, to make up for the lack of mobility and strategic scouting from fewer jump pack equipped squads, fewer landspeeders, and fewer bikes. To me, most of the extra techmarines get used as pilots.

Devastators are absolutely a characterful choice though. Proportionally, we have heaps of them. The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th company have three devastator squads each; and the 5th and 6th have four in each. When I painted my first demi-company it was essential to me that I had three tactical, one assault squad, and two devastator squads to represent this.
Again, I assume fire support squads are interchangeable here too. So my plan to 8th editionify my 2nd company is to move out some of the devastators (repainting the shoulder pads to add them to reserve companies) and add in hellblasters and aggressors.

I find it kind of odd that the extra fire support squads get glossed over in so much of the background, and in the studio armies.


Edited by Yale, 08 September 2018 - 10:11 PM.


#21
librisrouge

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People here debate Dreadnoughts? Really? You guys know half of named Sally characters available in tabletop are Dreadnoughts, yes? whistlingW.gif


Technically a third, though the 3rd one does not actually have a model. Captain Pelias Mir'San is a playable Forge World character.

 

Actually, a quarter. FW also has that cool Chief Apothecary character.

 

Salamanders like to fight with their feet on the ground and in situations where the individual warrior has the most control over their immediate situations. This means that they like high powered, man-portable weapons. Combined with their thematic preference for flame, it's no surprise that they like meltas and flamers in all of their forms. Both give individuals a lot of umph up close, just toward specific targets.

 

Salamanders are also pragmatic. They might not like them, but combat doctrine will sometimes argue that a squadron of flyers and landspeeders will do the job best. In those situations, expect the Salamanders to fight from the skies. They'll just be happy when the mission is over.

 

Lastly, every chapter has their oddballs. Those that don't 100% mesh with the culture but still kill the Emperor's enemies just fine so they're put up with. I imagine that the Salamanders put these guys into permanent positions as pilots and the like, particularly since that is where they'd probably like to be.


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#22
Lord_Caerolion

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I think the Forge World book (the Badab War one) actually had that the Salamander pilots tend to be amazing, due to their training on Nocturne. 

 

Lastly, as some have said, the Salamanders may have a preference for meltas/flamers/close-range-firefights, but they're not idiots. If they're facing enemies across a long, open distance, where there isn't much cover, they'll load up on longer-ranged weaponry, rather than get shot to pieces while running forwards "because mah meltas are awesome!" They're still Space Marines, and will make full use of the wide range of weapons and tools available to them, if that's what the situation calls for.

 

I mean, the White Scars don't gear up for cleansing a Space-Hulk thinking "well, Terminator armour would sure suit us best here, but we are the Bike Chapter, so mount up, men!" Sure, the Promethean Cult has fire symbology, and uses hammers/smithing as metaphors and symbology as well, but that doesn't mean that everything they ever do has to relate back to that, any more than the Christian warriors during the Crusades should have all had to use swords because they look like a crucifix.


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#23
Xisor

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There's been a lot of good replies already.

There aren't any weapons or units the Sallies object to in 40K, everything has it's place. The only really uncharacterful or anti-background choice is assault squads in the 2 reserve companies - they don't have any. (I'm assuming the new close support squads are treated the same.)


I've been wondering about that, actually. Obviously they don't have any listed, but at the same time, it's for an edition or two been stated that the 'training progression' is Scout->Devastator->Assault->Tactical, so one might naively assume that if you've got a Tactical Squad (cough, Battleline), then they might 'moonlight' as Assault Marines.

Now, with Primaris on the loose, and the intimation that Primaris Close Support (formerly Assault) are Elite (where Reivers are concerned), then we're in a bit of a bind.

Has anything been explicitly mentioned on how the Primaris progress?

E.g. would the people who make up a Reiver squad be any good at performing the job of Intercessors, or have they been too-focussed and hot-housed that they're atrocious at staying where you put them (e.g. Objective Secured-ing)?

In any event, I ostensibly agree: in the Salamanders reserve companies, Assault (nowadays Close Support) isn't strictly a thing.

Flyers have never been mentioned in regards to the Salamanders. So in my head-canon the flyers get heavy use, to make up for the lack of mobility and strategic scouting from fewer jump pack equipped squads, fewer landspeeders, and fewer bikes. To me, most of the extra techmarines get used as pilots.


4th Company Captain Dac'tyr? "Lord of the burning skies" msn-wink.gif

In my book, it's either a lot of fliers, or a lot of starships.

Or both.

biggrin.png

Devastators are absolutely a characterful choice though. Proportionally, we have heaps of them. The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th company have three devastator squads each; and the 5th and 6th have four in each. When I painted my first demi-company it was essential to me that I had three tactical, one assault squad, and two devastator squads to represent this.
Again, I assume fire support squads are interchangeable here too. So my plan to 8th editionify my 2nd company is to move out some of the devastators (repainting the shoulder pads to add them to reserve companies) and add in hellblasters and aggressors.


You're a Salamander after my own heart, Yale! I'm literally in the process of doing the same...

I find it kind of odd that the extra fire support squads get glossed over in so much of the background, and in the studio armies.


Yep, I vaguely remember running the numbers some time ago, but it needs a little adjustment for the shambolic state of the companies.

Assuming 4 Battle/3 Reserve (with Firedrakes and Scouts bumped out to supernumerary 'household' formations, the Firedrake Command Squad's Sergeant being ol' pen-pusher Tu'shan), that would loosely give us...

4*7*10 + 3*7*10 Tactical/Battleline = 490 Battleline Marines (98 Sergeants + 98 Special/Heavy + 294 Bolter, assuming MSU all-singing, all-dancing, which given the Salamanders armouries...)
4*2*10 + 0*0*00 Assault/Close Support = 80 Close Support Marines (40 Land Speeders, they might have a few lying about...)
4*3*10 + 3*5*10 Devastator/Fire Support = 270 Fire Support Marines (54 Sergeants + 216 Heavy, assuming everyone's carrying...)

Which, assuming everyone who has the opportunity has something more interesting than a bolter, then you could theoretically have racing to Armageddon...
152 sergeants, let's say all with combi-flamers and thunder hammers.
314 bad-asses with multi-meltas
294 bolter luggers
40 land speeders

And that's not really accounting for, say, having all your Fire Support being put into Aggressors and all your Close Support going on Inceptors...

And, to mix things up a bit, throw in 120 terminators for some giggles.

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Of course, that's taking things extremes, but it's the 'by the book' maximums, assuming there's actually 7 proper (Battle/Reserve) companies, as opposed to 3/2 with just more than half a scout company and a bucketload of moon-citizens sporting terminator armour.

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I'm personally quite fond of the 1/4/3/1 approach to the companies. I think it gels with the idea of each Company 'living in a city of distinct flavour'. The 1/3/2/1 approach doesn't entirely make sense that way, but makes more sense if you assume it's not a 1:1 correlation of cities to companies - e.g. each company disperses throughout all cities, and recruits from all cities - but that requires undoing some old statements text, not the thrown-together chapter tables. (Which, IMO, are easier to ignore.)

Still, I do also like the (currently non-canon, hell - it contradicts the canon) idea that when they're back on Nocturne, they're not in any company - they only get re-assigned when some Captain or Lieutenant's assembling a force. The 1/3/2/1 structure just happened to be recorded by the external Imperium because that's the configuration that had been dispersed at that time. E.g. they had three captains out on 'intrepid, independent, take-all-comer forces' business, with a further two 'overseeing' the operations of a dozen squads each across several sectors... (i.e. 'reserves')! And also there were some Firedrakes and Scouts doing things...

Hell, whilst I'm at it, I quite like the notion that the 'First Sergeant'/Captain of the Firedrakes is Regent of Prometheus, it consequently makes the Captain of the Scout Company the Regent/Commander in Chief/Planetary Governor of Nocturne...

But that's getting *far* away from actual canon now.

I do like it though...




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