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Taking out the Big Boys


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#1
NatBrannigan

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So... Mortarian is on the way! What an amazing model for starters.

 

Now then, my most regular opponent is putting together a Death Guard army at the moment. He loves that new model so in a short while I'll be facing off against a Deamon Primarch. I've never gone up against Magnus so this will be a new experience for me.

 

We know very little but can assume:

 

a) He's going to be tough! Other Deathguard units with their T5 and disgustingly resilient 5+ save are a real swine to remove. Morty will be the epitome of that.

 

B) He's going to be fast! Those wings aren't just for show...

 

c) He's going to want to get up close and personal! He's got a massive scythe, nothing more to say there really.

 

So my question is how do we, as humble Guard commanders, take out this monstrosity? I'm tempted to finally get the Baneblade kit I've been wanting and just slap a Shadowsword down opposite him but I don't really like taking units to combat a specific threat I know is coming and even if I did, I'll probably only get 1 shot off before he's on me (Fast moving and almost certainly getting the first turn).

 

Any advice? What's worked against Magnus / Bloodthirsters etc? I think even Guardsman Perkins who, as the loan survivor of his squad, caused carnage by taking the last wound from 2 Sorcerers on Saturday, will struggle against ole' Morty! (I have now modelled up a Sniper, who is being used as a Vindicare Assassin, to represent young Perkins, how's that for a promotion!)



#2
CoffeeGrunt

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I don't think you can really use Magnus as a template for how to kill Mortarion any more than you can use Guilliman as a template for how to kill Magnus. Magnus is a psychic powerhouse as well as being a potent combatant and tough target to kill. Morty isn't likely to be psychic due to lore, and has the Lantern which is a bit of a wildcard. It could be a pretty ruthless weapon, we don't know.

 

Until we have stats and rules, it's hard to really recommend anything. He might have a -1 to Hit debuff that makes Lascannon spam untenable. He might have a Quantum Shielding esque rule that makes high damage weapons useless. He might have a ridiculous invlun that makes AP useless. It's hard to say atm.



#3
Galron

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Unless you have rapid fire high strength fire, ignore him. Properly spread guard will prevent him from doing a lot. So he kills a squad a turn, he will never earn his points back. I doubt he will kill a tank a turn. With his points cost the rest of his force will be limited in size, concentrate on them and play the objective game.


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#4
CoffeeGrunt

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I'd be very surprised if he couldn't kill a tank in a turn, and letting a Primarch run rampant is rarely a good idea.



#5
NatBrannigan

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Indeed! Even the Lord that comes in the starter box (He has a big axe?) killed a squad of Tartaros termies in 1 turn. Chop... Fairly lucky but not outrageously so. I suspect that same Lord is taking at least 5 wounds of a Tank in combat so Emperor only knows what Morty will do!

 

I know this is a lot of guess work, I'm just interested in how people are dealing with things like Guilliman, Magnus and Greater Deamons at the moment. I know there was an anti-tank thread but these guys are a different beast. They're fast and want to be in Combat.



#6
CoffeeGrunt

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Guilliman is different because he can hide behind units. Morty won't be able to, which means he'll be absurdly tough to compensate.



#7
Extropian

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Guilliman is not really useful as a comparison, as CoffeeGrunt says (ninja'd!).

 

Magnus is likely the closest, but we really have no clue how tough Mortarian will be. He SHOULD be more resilient, but who knows?

Regardless, Magnus can be focused down just fine if he isn't very careful. High damage weapons or large numbers of good Str, low damage weapons can and will kill him just fine.

 

He is more about raw damage output, which is HUGE. In the same way that I expect morty to be harder to kill, i doubt he'll have the killing power Magnus brings so it should be a tradeoff.

 

TLDR....too soon to say.



#8
HenricusTyranicus

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Worst case scenario, they'll represent the virulent diseases and such around him by giving him massive area of effect attacks, while making him tough enough to shrug off loads of firepower. I might try a Salamander Command tank with Pask in a Plasmacutioner, for autohitting, over charging goodnesss.

Alternatively, you could always bring a Shadowsword.


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#9
Withershadow

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Plasmacutioners are absolutely worthless as far as I'm concerned. Non-overcharged plasma is inferior to other weapon options, and overcharging is too risky with the even increasing variety of to hit modifiers making it even more risky, and Pask being FAQd to be like other Tank Commanders you can't even mitigate with rerolls.

#10
Halfpint100

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Hmmmmmmm. A few options: autocannons? But my favourite: surround it with hellhounds and burn the heretic! Burn the diseases! Burn him!

#11
HenricusTyranicus

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Plasmacutioners are absolutely worthless as far as I'm concerned. Non-overcharged plasma is inferior to other weapon options, and overcharging is too risky with the even increasing variety of to hit modifiers making it even more risky, and Pask being FAQd to be like other Tank Commanders you can't even mitigate with rerolls.

Yeah that's why you bring the Salamander. +1 to hit=cannot roll ones=overcharge all your shots. And in the case of Pask, it means autohitting with all your overcharged shots..


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#12
jaxom

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Though our tanks and artillery are mighty, it is the vast ranks of Imperial Guardsmen that shall trample the enemy to dust - let them come. - Urskar E. Creed

 

 

Remember always, however, that a commander who puts his faith in heavy weaponry will be easily outmaneuvered and a commander who relies on close combat without adequate support will lose his force to disciplined fire. No one has ever won a battle who failed to take advantage of his enemy's weakness, or take heed of his own. - Lord Commander Solar Macharius

 

 

Quantity has a quality all its own. - Thomas A. Callaghan Jr.

 

I think a combined arms force is the way to go. Overwhelm the foe with choices for targets so there's always a unit they can't devote to attacking, but it will hurt them if they don't (tanks are a very visible threat, but so can heavy weapon squads). Positioning will be important (as always, to avoid an enemy hopping from combat to combat). The other thing that may end up being important is mobility. Nurgle has traditionally been the slow tide of the Ruinous Powers and while Blight Drones and Mortarion are changing that, one or two Valkyries for rapid redeployment of key infantry units may be a nice ace in the hole.


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#13
Inso

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Ask an Eldar to see if he can D-Cannon Mortarion's arse

 

Then mop up :).


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#14
Jam Master Flex

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Indeed! Even the Lord that comes in the starter box (He has a big axe?) killed a squad of Tartaros termies in 1 turn. Chop... Fairly lucky but not outrageously so. I suspect that same Lord is taking at least 5 wounds of a Tank in combat so Emperor only knows what Morty will do!

I know this is a lot of guess work, I'm just interested in how people are dealing with things like Guilliman, Magnus and Greater Deamons at the moment. I know there was an anti-tank thread but these guys are a different beast. They're fast and want to be in Combat.


I play against my friends marines on a regular basis, atleast once a week and he always brings Guilliman.

He usually screens him with Terminators or Primaris Marines and tries to move him from terrain to terrain to get at my tanks.

What I've been doing is using my hullmounted lascannons to wipe out the terminators/mop them up with executioner turrets, and then brought all my heavy guns to bare on him.

He usually makes it to a tank for close combat but then died the turn after due to him usually only being on a few wounds.

The other thing ive been doing is shaving wounds off by deepstriking my scions/scions command squads behind him in turn 3. They usually die but it usually means he's just about dead at that point.

The last game I played he died to overwatch by charging my Macarius Infernus after getting cocky having killed a hellhound and a chimera in CC in quick succession.
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#15
FallenSoldiers

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I don't think a Shadowsword is the trick for fighting Morty. If it's not "titanic" you're not utilizing the full abilities of that tank.

Hellhounds could be fun. Charge up, burn the heretic, and explode dealing mortal wounds on a 4+.

Artillery. It's always good to bomb your opponent from half a board away. Basilisks and Manticores should still perform decently.

I think they key is to chip away a little bit every turn. If he can fly you can't lock him in combat with conscripts and rely on GBiTF to hold him up for turns and turns. It's also important to not waste entire turns of shooting EVERYTHING at him while rank upon rank of marines move up towards you!

#16
bc99

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Plasmacutioners are absolutely worthless as far as I'm concerned. Non-overcharged plasma is inferior to other weapon options, and overcharging is too risky with the even increasing variety of to hit modifiers making it even more risky, and Pask being FAQd to be like other Tank Commanders you can't even mitigate with rerolls.

Yeah that's why you bring the Salamander. +1 to hit=cannot roll ones=overcharge all your shots. And in the case of Pask, it means autohitting with all your overcharged shots..

 

 

That's not how it works. If you roll a 1, then you die. You don't get to add +1 and say look I rolled a 2.

 

Rolling a 1 occurs before adding the modifier, and therefore the effect takes place before the modifier.



#17
Beams

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But a -1 causes a 2 to be a 1, giving you an overheat?

#18
bc99

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But a -1 causes a 2 to be a 1, giving you an overheat?

 

Negatory brother. It's on the physical "roll" of the dice. A 2 to a -1 doesn't mean you " rolled" a 1. It means you rolled a 2 but your modified hit score is 1.

 

If you roll that 1, and you don't have an aura allowing you a re-roll, you're toast. Gots to bring those re-rolls. That's the only way.



#19
HenricusTyranicus

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But a -1 causes a 2 to be a 1, giving you an overheat?

 

Negatory brother. It's on the physical "roll" of the dice. A 2 to a -1 doesn't mean you " rolled" a 1. It means you rolled a 2 but your modified hit score is 1.

 

If you roll that 1, and you don't have an aura allowing you a re-roll, you're toast. Gots to bring those re-rolls. That's the only way.

 

Actually a two with a minus one to roll means you roll a one and overheat. And rolling a nat one with plus one to hit means no overheating. 


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8th edition win-lose record.

Win-Lose-Draw
  3-2-0


#20
HenricusTyranicus

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From the designers commentary: 

 

Q: When making a hit roll with a supercharged plasma weapon, do you determine whether a ‘1’ was rolled before or after applying re-rolls and modifiers?

 

A: You apply all re-rolls and modifiers first. For example, if, after re-rolls and modifiers, the final result is then a 1 (or counts as a 1, as explained above), then the supercharged plasma weapon injures or kills the firer.

 

 

So if you get plus one to your weapon, you're 100% safe from overheating plasma, and can overcharge at will. That's why I was suggesting the Salamander command tank. It grants +1 to hit to a friendly vehicle. So you can fire 7.5 autohitting overcharged plasma, and an autohitting lascannon, should you feel so inclined. Of course, it's also terribly expensive, and a fire magnet. 


8th edition win-lose record.

Win-Lose-Draw
  3-2-0


#21
bc99

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But a -1 causes a 2 to be a 1, giving you an overheat?

 

Negatory brother. It's on the physical "roll" of the dice. A 2 to a -1 doesn't mean you " rolled" a 1. It means you rolled a 2 but your modified hit score is 1.

 

If you roll that 1, and you don't have an aura allowing you a re-roll, you're toast. Gots to bring those re-rolls. That's the only way.

 

 

I guess we'll just have to disagree brother, even though a roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers that may apply. Doesn't make sense to me, but as long as you're using your plasma on xenos, I guess it's ok.



#22
HenricusTyranicus

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But a -1 causes a 2 to be a 1, giving you an overheat?

 

Negatory brother. It's on the physical "roll" of the dice. A 2 to a -1 doesn't mean you " rolled" a 1. It means you rolled a 2 but your modified hit score is 1.

 

If you roll that 1, and you don't have an aura allowing you a re-roll, you're toast. Gots to bring those re-rolls. That's the only way.

 

 

I guess we'll just have to disagree brother, even though a roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers that may apply. Doesn't make sense to me, but as long as you're using your plasma on xenos, I guess it's ok.

 

Fair enough, I had thought that rolls of one were only auto fails for armor saves. But you're right on that front, they don't autohit.


8th edition win-lose record.

Win-Lose-Draw
  3-2-0


#23
duz_

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Fairly sure between designers notes and FAQs the understanding is

A -1 modifier will mean rolls of 1 & 2 will cause over heating.
A modifier of +1 means you'll never have to worry.

As for re-rolls its off the natural roll. So if you get re-rolls 1s and you have a -1 modifier and roll lots of 2s means your outta luck unfortunately. Doubly so if you decided you would overcharge.

Definitely check the FAQ and if there's still no definitive answer there's always the rules subforum. :D

#24
Halfpint100

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Fairly sure between designers notes and FAQs the understanding is

A -1 modifier will mean rolls of 1 & 2 will cause over heating.
A modifier of +1 means you'll never have to worry.

As for re-rolls its off the natural roll. So if you get re-rolls 1s and you have a -1 modifier and roll lots of 2s means your outta luck unfortunately. Doubly so if you decided you would overcharge.

Definitely check the FAQ and if there's still no definitive answer there's always the rules subforum. biggrin.png

 

The FAQ states all modifiers are applied before the roll. so a +1 will negate any 1s to hit. which means on full wounds. pask will hit every shot



#25
CoffeeGrunt

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Does the rule that a 1 is always a fail not exist anymore? Otherwise 1+ Saves would be immortal unless you have AP.






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