GK long range support options?

[Zombs]

Hello everybody,

So far what I have seen is that our army works pretty well at short-medium distances. New bolters are pretty strong and our close combat is stll not to be underestimated, plus we got some decent powers aswell.

But when it comes to long range anti vehicle/flyer/super heavy what do we have?

 

-Razorbacks with assault cannon: you can try to "spam" them (spam means like 3-4) and if they survive enought they can dish out some good damage, but still, to kill a land raider or an imperial knight we will need much more

 

-Razorback with lascannon: now we talking good damage and good armor reduction. The problem is still that they are razorbacks, so they might get blown fairly quickly. Also every missed hit it's a pretty big impact, since they have only 2 each (and they cost more than AC razorbacks)

 

-Double autocannon Venerable/normal dreddy: not gonna lie, putting 2 or 3 of these guys ir really tempting for me. With 8 2+ shots (if I use them I will use venerable every time) it's pretty decent. If you put 3 of those boys in a ruin and leave them there all game, imo they will make an impact. The thing is you are investing a lot of points for an almost immobile long range weapon platform, that is susceptible to flanks and deepstrikes. So imo you are forced to defend those guys with something, meaning that you won't have all your infantry forces up in the front where you usually need them.

 

-Land rider: 4 lascannon shots it's nice, plus AC and melta... hell yeah! The cost tho.... ouch. And the fact that you have to deploy it turn one it's a risk if you don't have a really good cover. It's risky imo, but can pay himself pretty well

 

-Storm Raven: ok this is nice. With lascannons/AC, bolters and meltas it can cover any role in your army. The -1 to hit it's nice, but as the land raider, you have to deploy it first turn, and so far, what I have seen is that it will become a very important target for your opponent. But if it survives...

 

So guys, what do you think? These are just my random thoughts. Should we even bother deployng long ranged supports? Should we use very costly veicles, but a bit more durable or spam razorbacks like no tomorrow? Should we just try and hammer vehicles out in close combat? How would you deal with Imperial Knigts? Or Predator, Land raiders and Razor lists?

Let's discuss this out!

Edited August 12, 2017 by Zombs

[Seizeman]

AC razorbacks are very good, but not for anti-armor. The only good choice for that is the stormraven.

 

But you are not supposed to kill armor (heavy armor anyway) by shooting.

[Gentlemanloser]

Smash vehicles in melee.

 

GM NDK, Hammers on Paragons / Voldus / Generic GM for Relic Hammer.

 

I wouldn't class AC Razors as long range. They have the same 24" range add the rest of the army.

 

Personally i still love the old Riflemen Dreads. If only we didn't have to use the index for them.

[Waking Dreamer]

So if it's an Imperial Knight(s) facing you, what would be the best tactic to crack that armour?

[Helycon]

I still feel getting LC RB's would be good, or Hawks with LC's and maybe even Meltas. Expensive, but hard to hit, gets stuff where you want it to go, and a firing platform. Sounds good to me!

[Seizeman]

Don't try to play Grey knights like Space Marines, it does not work.

 

You can deal at least 6 mortal wounds just with psychic powers. A storm raven can deal about 5 more. Then you can finish it with one or two melee units. Any of your dedicated melee units deals arround 7-11 wounds in a single phase, even more if you use hammerhand. In fact, the Knight straight up looses in a direct fight against a GMNDK.

[Helycon]

Don't try to play Grey knights like Space Marines, it does not work.

 

You can deal at least 6 mortal wounds just with psychic powers. A storm raven can deal about 5 more. Then you can finish it with one or two melee units. Any of your dedicated melee units deals arround 7-11 wounds in a single phase, even more if you use hammerhand. In fact, the Knight straight up looses in a direct fight against a GMNDK.

 

That would mean converging everything on the one unit, which works well when you're just doing kill points I suppose. When you're doing objectives, things will get more difficult. Also, getting charged by a knight, generally means game over, unless their dice are really unlucky, and yours aren't. Poking from afar and crippling them seems more preferable. Since you'll need some way to get stuff on the board to start, an RB with LC's seems like a good way to go. Also, getting some troops in in the form of a strike squad seems nice. They're protected for the most part, until you get in range (and yes, I realise that means hitting the LC's on 4's) and drop them out, so they get an easier charge. I agree with using Hammerhand fullheartedly though, it's going to make a massive difference. 

 

Also, I means Stormraven. I always get them mixed up, since the ThunderHAWK is the big FW transport, I always feel like a StormHAWK should be it's smaller sibling. 

[Seizeman]

How's converging "everything" (I'ts just 3 or 4 units at mosts, actually) for a single turn to kill 1/4 of the opponent's army not worth it? Also you don't have to try and get every single objective card, specially if that forces you to leave your army disorganised and vulnerable. No point in getting 1 or 2 extra points early to loose them later in the game because you have let the opponent destroy you.

 

And how's getting charged by a knight game over? It deals an average of 3,5 wounds to a GMNDK, suffering more than 9 in return. The GM can even use Honor the chaper and/or Only in death, so if the knight charges him, he's seriously screwed. You are severely overestimating its melee capacity.

 

You are also overestimating how good the Las cannon razorback is. An AC razorback deals (on the move) 1 wound on average to a knight. The same razorback with a Las cannon deals 1.5 wounds. A significant increase, but no a very relevant one in practice (and not very efficient). For comparison, a single GMNDK (on the move) does 2.5 wounds to the knight in a single round of shooting ( 5.5 if he uses psychic onslaught).

 

More importantly, the Knight is very hard to manoeuvre and his shooting is pretty inefficient, so a lot of times you can just ignore him and focus on better targets. So really, you don't need dedicated ranged anti-armor at all.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Seizeman

[Godeskian]

If you're charging three or four units how are you getting six mortal wounds? Purge soul?

[Seizeman]

Purge, Vortex, and smites. You can use smite on the knight with some units while they shoot/charge something else. Your army should be close together at most times anyway. But in any case, that's assuming you need to kill it and there's nothing better to cast the powers against. A couple of units charging plus a few wounds from powers/shooting (about 6) should be enough.

[Godeskian]

That makes sense. I'm not picking up my codex till tomorrow, and I've apparently missed the vortex discussion. Thanks Seizeman

[Zombs]

Did any of you have the chance to try the autocannon dreddy? How well does it perform?

[Seizeman]

Did any of you have the chance to try the autocannon dreddy? How well does it perform?

Awfully. They are 173 points to deal 3.33 wounds a turn to a rhino equivalent. Or kill 2 regular marines. They are ridiculously inefficient and not worth playing any in kind of list. The only somewhat ok way to play a dread is with a fist (or doomglaive) and a short range weapon, and even then, they get pretty much outclassed by GMNDKS.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Seizeman

[Godeskian]

I've been using them off and on since fifth addition. They're not great, like Seizeman says, but I like them substantially better than he does. They solidly add a few wounds every turn and occasionally do spectacular damage, and I live in a meta where they generally survive because there is almost always better stuff for my opponent to shoot at.

 

So they're okay. Not great, but okay.

 

I play them mostly because I like playing with the model, and I'm willing to take the efficiency hit to do it

[Danarc]

And did someone use the vortimer doomglave pattern? Did he worth?

[Seizeman]

It's just Doomglaive pattern. Vortimers are razorbacks and land raiders.

 

The doomglaive is just the best dreadnought (not considering contemptors, FW etc) in the whole game. The doomglaive (the CCW it uses) is just as good as a fist, but half the price. The Heavy psycanon is the best ranged weapon for a dreadnought. It is basically a 24" range 6 shot autocanon.

 

So just compare it with the twin autocannon one. In the shooting phase, the doomglaive's weapon has the same profile, just 6 shots instead of 8. So it is 75% as effective as the twin autocannon dread in the shooting phase. It also has a storm bolter, so it's even better. But of course, the twin AC dread is absolutely useless in combat while the doomglaive is a beast. 4 Attacks hitting on 2+ and doing 1d6 damages a piece. Also, because it wants to be closer to the enemy, it makes better use of it's psychic abilities (casting smite, using GoI, etc) and friendly auras, and can stay with the rest of the army, so it's a lot more synergistic. It's basically a true GK dreadnough, pretty good at medium range shooting and a beast in melee.

 

But the best part is, he costs only 168 points, while a double twin AC dread costs 176. A regular dreadnought with close combat weapon and a twin autocannon costs 185 points, and it is strictly worse than the doomglaive. So there's absolutely no reason to play a dreadnought other than the doomglaive (personal taste and fetishes aside).

 

That being said, it still competes with the GMNDK for a similar role. The Doomglaive is, point for point, more efficient from a purely offensive point of view, but a lot less durable. The GM also has better mobility, reroll aura and a FO slot, so it is better overall and more useful for its role. Technically it would not be bad to play some doomglaives in addition to the GMNDKS, but you need points for other things in your army. So, all in all, I don't think there's a place for dreadnoughts in a competitive GK army.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Seizeman

[MayorDaley]

My "buddy" borrowed, and never returned my IA collection, how do I go about getting rules fer the 'glaive now?

 

Repurchasing all the IAs is defo not in my budget atm.

[Valerian]

You'd just need the current Forge World Index for the Imperium; its only about $20.

[Adeptus]

And you certainly wouldn't be able to find the FW indexes on any of those pirating websites.

[MayorDaley]

Found the index, decent price as well. I'm gonna grab it and roll out my 'glaives.

 

Finally get to use my fancy FW bits.

 

Cheers