Strike Squads vs Terminators

[Danarc]

How about a mechanical reason then?

 

Terminators are veterans, with Terminator honours.

 

This historically gave the Marine +1A.

 

Tac Marines have 1A. Terminators 2A.

 

Our Strike Squads have 1A.

 

Our terminators have the 'traditional' veteren 2A...

 

If they are the same 'troops' as the guys in Strike Squads, then surely, mechanically, like having the same ld they should also have the same 1A.

 

(Its also bonkers our 'elite' PA troop lost thier 2A as well...)

 

Edit. Its also easy to confirm that mechanically wearing TDA doesn't change the A stat.

 

If you look at marine characters that have both a PA and TDA version we can see that TDA gives;

 

-1M

+1W

2+ Save

 

The A stat doesn't change.

 

Which means our GKT have 'veteren' number of Attacks...

ssssshhhhhhh

don't say this or GW should downgrade our termy again. :D

[Fahlnor]

Hmmmm. I realised something earlier today which I think has a bearing on this discussion (particularly with regard the Terminators vs. Paladins aspect of it):

 

"My name is Fahlnor and I am uncomfortable building an army list without Troops."

 

I guess I played 40K and Fantasy for so long that I have got the Troops/Core requirement completely ingrained in my list-building psyche. I feel really uncomfortable at the idea of not using them. The impact of that is that where I might otherwise say "pffff, Paladins are waaaayyyyyy better than Terminators for only a minimal points cost - I'll just run a clever detachment so I don't need to use Troops and that way I can just use the awesomesauce Paladins instead!", Old Man Dinosaur here is still going "but Paladins don't fill the Troops requirement!"

 

So, maybe I need to reconsider my position in light of the fact that I seem to still be playing a game from twenty years ago...!

[Adeptus]

Easily solved by rerolls and plus 1's.

 

Do we really want that kind of game though? Where every unit gets some kind of modifier? We just got rid of the dumpster fire that was 7th ed, I'm really enjoying the 'clean' feel of 8th ed and don't want to see it get clogged up with more and more special rules because everyone thinks their special snowflake models deserve to be different. 

[Fahlnor]

 

Easily solved by rerolls and plus 1's.

 

Do we really want that kind of game though? Where every unit gets some kind of modifier? We just got rid of the dumpster fire that was 7th ed, I'm really enjoying the 'clean' feel of 8th ed and don't want to see it get clogged up with more and more special rules because everyone thinks their special snowflake models deserve to be different. 

 

Worth noting that if you particularly wanted to, you can house rule things like this. GW have always been exceptionally clear that they're simply offering a framework for a game - they have always encouraged people to play the game you want to play.

[Brother Captain Sirus]

Hmmmm. I realised something earlier today which I think has a bearing on this discussion (particularly with regard the Terminators vs. Paladins aspect of it):

 

 

 

"My name is Fahlnor and I am uncomfortable building an army list without Troops."

I guess I played 40K and Fantasy for so long that I have got the Troops/Core requirement completely ingrained in my list-building psyche. I feel really uncomfortable at the idea of not using them. The impact of that is that where I might otherwise say "pffff, Paladins are waaaayyyyyy better than Terminators for only a minimal points cost - I'll just run a clever detachment so I don't need to use Troops and that way I can just use the awesomesauce Paladins instead!", Old Man Dinosaur here is still going "but Paladins don't fill the Troops requirement!"

 

So, maybe I need to reconsider my position in light of the fact that I seem to still be playing a game from twenty years ago...!

I believe you have reached the answer of why GW have decided to give all troops obsec. Personally if taking troops makes you a dinosaur then atleast i'll have some company while waiting on the asteroid coming to make us extinct.

 

 

Easily solved by rerolls and plus 1's.

 

Do we really want that kind of game though? Where every unit gets some kind of modifier? We just got rid of the dumpster fire that was 7th ed, I'm really enjoying the 'clean' feel of 8th ed and don't want to see it get clogged up with more and more special rules because everyone thinks their special snowflake models deserve to be different.

Definately not, i was having a read of my 3rd ed space marine codex the other day and its simplification in units was actually nice to see, all weapons had clear roles and hq slots was the area you could truly go nuts to make something unique, but thats my old gamer showing through.

 

While rules are good to give character to a unit or army there has to be a limit within the game system otherwise it becomes a mess, and you have to look at the core of the rules to see if its the base game that needs changed.

 

This type of graduality could easily be given if the game used D8 or D10 instead but that would require an even bigger overhaul than 7th to 8th.

You couldnt use 2D6 because it would force you to roll everything seperately, and i dont want to play an ork horde with all those CC attacks rolled one at a time.

 

Yes certain units will seem lacking to their descriptions in fluff but over complicating the game just to achieve this wouldnt be the right course of action.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Brother Captain Sirus

[Gentlemanloser]

Lots of units have bunches of special rules still.

 

If you prefer not to have them, that's cool. It's just a method to ease the lack of granularity perceived.

 

Personally i'd be fine with ld 8 GKT/Strikes, 9 on Justicars. Don't think there an issue with that. As said earlier the bump to ld in game would be hardly noticeable.

 

But would fit the fluff.

 

Is also go so far as to add Fearless back (hi Deathwatch. Why do you have it?) And heck to make GK more like thier fluff all GK get 2A base, and Purgators get either BS 2+ or a special rule that emulates thier 'Wanted' ability to psychically bend bullets.

 

But as I've said before, all this could have been achieved by bringing squad based psychic powers back.

 

Edit.

 

I don't think ld8, 2A and giving one unit BS2 would overcomplicate anything, really.

 

End of the day, mechanically our GKT still have (and have always had...) 'veteren' marine stats.

 

Bar now a nonsensical drop to Ld. It's not consistent, and there is no reason for it.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Zamtro]

Play what feels right =\ Even though it's not the efficient way of using points, I have my Terminators and Paladins modelled completely differently, and will still use both probably together. I'll just try place some objectives in cover and drop the terminators on them, with a 2+, cover and obsec they should be slightly difficult to move. Plus still drop 5 Paladins, an Apothocary, Ancient and GMNDK in their face will be hard for them to ignore, force them to pick which target to go for hopefully. 

[Godeskian]

Play what feels right =\ Even though it's not the efficient way of using points, I have my Terminators and Paladins modelled completely differently,

If you don't mind me asking, how have you modelled them differently? Just the top banner or something more elaborate?

[Brother Captain Sirus]

Upon release back in 5th all you had to do was put the banner books on, the fancy heraldry shields and the helmet with upcurve to the faceplate.

 

So nothing that makes them that different, but helmets are now used for either it seems.

[Danarc]

Paladin and terminator models are different, sot so much but they are.

helms are different (terminators use the "crociatus" version and pally the other ones) and pally must have the banner books. 

 

But I want to try to use the front of the death wing models. maybe it could make them more "paladins"

[Zamtro]

 

Play what feels right =\ Even though it's not the efficient way of using points, I have my Terminators and Paladins modelled completely differently,

If you don't mind me asking, how have you modelled them differently? Just the top banner or something more elaborate?

 

 

The first 10 Terminators I built, I did a fairly average job of, they have a mix of the helmets, no extra pouches, grenades, seals or anything, the little shield on the shoulder is on the side rather than the front, and theyre just sitting on some snow flocked bases.

 

My paladins I built recently and put a lot more effort into, all with books, paladin helms, extra accessories and seals, and mounted on bigger more scenic bases. I'll endeavour to do a better paint job on them too!

 

If I wanted I could play the termies as paladins too, but they would look a bit silly next to the properly done ones :P I'm also a bit slow in the head and feel weird playing any list without troop choices so I like having Termies and opening up extra CPs :P

[newdigitalGK]

for modeling I actually use Dark Angel hooded heads on my paladins... dunno why but it just feels right that way lol

[Adeptus]

That would look pretty awesome!

[hmk17]

I'll have to give that a try. I've got a bunch of Black Shield heads from my Death Watch army left over.