The correct price for GK Terminators?

[Brother Captain Sirus]

So as this is a point that is touched upon in many discussions across this forum, i thought i'd make a place where we could have an in depth look at their value overall.

 

Now a couple of base lines to consider first:

They are terminators

They have stormbolters

And they have a weapons that deals D3 damage

 

So far looking like normal terminators, then we have some differences:

They are troops with obsec

They have -1 Ld to other units in this armour

Their weapons strike at their standard WS, not -1 like most terminatora but only at half the str.

 

So on the great scheme of things they, as their standard counterparts, should cost 8 meltabombs. As -1 Ld vs Obsec really work as a counter balance.

 

So this leaves psychic ability, and this is where i think most things go awry, because is smite alone worth 8 meltabombs.....obviously, no.

Then we have to look at each power to in turn to see if they are worth considering:

Purge Soul - no, lower Ld doesnt work well with this.

Gate of Infinity - faster terminators are nice but i cant see any reason to take it on a unit that can deepstrike near its intended target to begin with.

Vortex of Doom - with its higher WC this is better used with a psyker able to cast multiple times so even if it fails, you have still managed to cast your lower WC abilities first.

Astral Aim - yet again this is an ability better served for a long range support unit, a dreadnought firing the only laser in the imperium that can bend for example, other than that using it to fire overwatch at a unit charging you that happens to be out of LoS is so far into situational that you would havr had to of been a psker yourself to have prepared for it.

Sanctuary - well this is a good potential option isnt it, well no, not really, as while 4++ terminators holding an objectives against all odds sounds impressive, you could have cast it on any characters or dreadknight or character dreadknight and its effect would have been far more pleasing, 2++ Draigo or a 3++ GMNDK, GM, Bro Cap, Bro Champion, as you can see the list of better targets is going to be long.

And finally Hammerhand - yes, the power in the codex every baseline troop can use to great effect due to having more attacks as a unit than any single character can hope to possess, and yet again here is where the wheel falls off the wagon, every unit can make good use of it.

I will admit with 2 attacks each they are a good choice, with falcions they are an even better choice, but then there are Paladins who will always have 4 more attacks than troop Terminators if they have matching gear loadouts.

 

So in summary Terminators will not be the first in line to gain any psychic buff, which will be allocated to priority targets due to the rule of one.

 

Leaving them to use Smite and more than likely have Hammerhand as their secondary power just incase they have an opportunity to use it.

 

Well, thats leaves us in a bit of a strange place with costing as i think we can all agree that 1 mortal wound per turn isnt worth 8 meltabombs, but it definately adds some form of cost above a standard terminator that can be spread out over the unit.

Now when considering the potential devastating effects of perils of the warp as a counter balance, what level of costs seems correct?

 

In my opinion, due to all that i have mentioned above i can say in all honesty, that a cost reduction to 43-45 points a model would be a better approximation of their value.

 

But what are your thoughts?

[skarn]

I would put them at 35pts each, with sb taking them to 37. Any more than that and you would still be better of with strikes.

[Seizeman]

I reckon their correct price would be about 42 points, bolter and nemesis weapon (or falchion at leas) included.

 

A tactical Space marine terminator costs 40 points. He has the same ranged weapon and a better melee weapon. Also he has a teleport homer for free, which is very useful, and one extra leadership, which is not much, but it is a plus anyway. He also has acess to better heavy weapons and better stratagems, but I think that's a problem about the weapons, so I won't factor it in, and the stratagems are not important enough to be of significance. With this being said, Space marine terminators are probably not good enough even at 40 points, but that is in part because of the current environment favouring shooty space marine armies.

 

So, if we assume that 40 points is a fair price for a Space marine terminator, a Grey Knights one should not cost more than 38 because of  its disadvantages. I think the psychic abilities of the Grey knight terminator are worth about 4 points per model. That puts it at an extra 20 points for a 5-man unit, wich is the same you pay for a GK dreadnought over a regular one, so it looks about right. Also, no matter how high you value their psychic abilities, the truth is that any more than 42 points per model and they would be just not playable (and maybe even 42 is too much).

 

That being said, terminators also have a problem with their weapon choices being overcosted, specially hammers. With hammers having the same cost for every unit and them being so important, they are a key factor on the unit's playability and, if you are going to pay so many points for a hammer, you want to take maximum profit from those points by giving them to paladins, which make much better use of them. So it is not enough that they make terminators themself cheaper, but they also have to make equipping them with hammers or heavy weapong more attractive. Making heavy weapons better would help them specially when compared with paladins, as they are equally good and could use those weapons more efficiently.

 

Right know, if they were 40 points each, I would probably take Paladins over them anyway. An extra attack (50% increase), an extra wound ( 50-100% durability increase) an extra point of leadership and a paragon upgrade for 15 points ( 38% increase) is still worth it.

[Helycon]

A bare bones terminator is 26 points. The stormbolter and powerfist bring them up to 40 a pop. If the GKT would start at the same base price. Assuming the psychic powers cost about 4 points per model and the stormbolter costs 2, that would leave you with 8 points for a melee weapon. A power sword costs 4. Is 8 points worth it for Nemesis force weapons?

[Brother Captain Sirus]

A very nice break down and well made point about the 20pts for the dread as a precedent for the psychic points cost.

With that in mind and factoring in current SM terminators without any changes for GKs, as they dont get hit by the -1 ws of fists a figure around 42-43pts would be a better place for them including wargear.

 

Weapon wise i have to agree Terminator wargear is all over the place.

 

The Daemon hammer costing nearly 15pts to upgrade puts the overall cost to that of a characters Thunder Hammer from the Space Marines. So while fair for Grand Masters and Brother Captain, it is overcosted for Standard Terminators and currently not a usable option, reduce its cost by 3pts would bring it more in line with an assault terminators Thunder Hammer cost.

The heavy weapons as you said would definately benefit from a look over, as the difference in cost currently is only justified because PAGK have to loose their Nemesis Force Weapon to take them, but the overall cost for these weapons (except the Psilencer on a PAGK) are too high.

[Seizeman]

A nemesis force sword is twice as powerful a regular power sword. Also, falchions are far more powerful than swords, so 8 points sounds fair.

[Brother Captain Sirus]

A bare bones terminator is 26 points. The stormbolter and powerfist bring them up to 40 a pop. If the GKT would start at the same base price. Assuming the psychic powers cost about 4 points per model and the stormbolter costs 2, that would leave you with 8 points for a melee weapon. A power sword costs 4. Is 8 points worth it for Nemesis force weapons?

A nemesis force weapon is worth 12 if you go by most force weapon costs.

[Chronos Darkhelmet]

Realistically, I'd price naked TAGKs 26 pts each + 20 pts/base squad (i.e. 4 pts/model) for psionics + 12 pts each for "free" force weapons + 2 pts each for bolters - 5 pts/base squad (i.e. 1 pt/model) for Ld nerf = 43 pts each ;)

 

And my son could have died! :P

[TheFinisher4Ever]

One other thing you have to factor into the points cost is Chapter Tactics. Vanilla Marine terminators also get a chapter tactic for free and these can be amazing. IMO, between this and perils, our psychic mastery shouldn't add to our price. Being psykers is essentially our chapter tactic.

 

*Edit* Forgot about Brotherhood of Psykers! Nevermind then, ignore this.

Edited August 15, 2017 by TheFinisher4Ever

[Gentlemanloser]

The problem with GKT are Strikes and Paladin.

 

GKT sit between the two, and need a place, a role of thier own. Rather than sort this by points.

 

Make them too cheap and you invariably invalidate strikes.

 

Make them too expensive and Paladin replace them.

 

42/43 seems a reasonable price. But reasonable doesn't cut it.

 

We'd still either go cheap for more offense with Strikes, or expensive for more staying power and threat with Paladin.

 

Now, if each of our units had thier own psychic powers that helped define them...

Edited August 15, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Seizeman]

Force weapons usually can only be taken by characters, so that's factored into their price. There's no way psychic weapons are costed at 12 points for terminators or strikes.

 

Chapter tactics should not be included, as they are a reward for being battleforged and every codex gets them (or something similar. Actually our chaper's tactic is called "brotherhood of psykers" and it is an amazing one.

 

Honestly, for them to be playable right now they should be costed at about what Skarn said, but they could be a bit higher if their optional weapons were more reasonably costed.

[Brother Captain Sirus]

The problem with GKT are Strikes and Paladin.

GKT sit between the two, and need a place, a role of thier own. Rather than sort this by points.

Make them too cheap and you invariably invalidate strikes.

Make them too expensive and Paladin replace them.

42/43 seems a reasonable price. But reasonable doesn't cut it.

We'd still either go cheap for more offense with Strikes, or expensive for more staying power and threat with Paladin.

Now, if each of our units had thier own psychic powers that helped define them...

I did like it when each unit had their own unique power, it was a great way of shaping an army in a unique fashion.

 

@seizeman: it is true that force weapons can only be taken by characters, but most wargear has a standard price across all units now, the power sword and plasma pistol for example, i know this doesnt hold true for strikes but their price is 6pts higher than a standard marine, so for 2 force weapon attacks you pay 12pts in a roundabout way, but overall the strikes cost balances out and they are not being over looked. On the other hand strikes get a 10pt discount on heavy weapons due to losing their melee weapon, so we can say that GW roughly costs a force weapon for a terminator at 10pts.

[Yossarion]

Should cost 38 points after everything is said and done. With a hammer that's 203 points. Nearly double what a strike squad is, but you get the extra wound and terminator save. I think that's fair, our biggest strength is the storm bolter and weight of fire (not really what most of us think of GK) which is what makes strikes so great. This also makes it so 4 paladins doesn't cost less than a terminator squad at the cost of 2-4 storm bolter shots.

[Danarc]

But is it possible that une wound and a +1 armor (with the new rules about ap) cost so much? I think there is a problem for all termy. The for ours in particular I agree for 38 points.

[hmk17]

I'm curious to see their internal play-testing notes. 

 

With the Index, GK Termies were running 44 a piece (220). Vanilla Termies were 48 pts (224).

I want to see what warrants the increase of 4 pts base. I'm assuming its the Psyker Tax, but with the 8 pt plummet of a Power Fist's cost it should have balanced out. 

 

 

As much as I like this edition, so much stuff feels randomly slapped together.

[Danarc]

I'm not so sure that the playlets was so accurate. 

[newdigitalGK]

I think the point of the contest of some kind of middle-ground between strikes and paladins is a razor sharp edge that GW has yet to balance correctly.  Some ways they could do it as some have suggested is some ability that makes them fill some kind of role that Strikes or Paladins don't fill. An example of this is the warp quake that strikes used to have. Made them viable because of their ability not due to stat comparisons which is where we are at right now.  If GK term were priced at the much lower cost we would never take strike squads at all. At this point I would look into removing one or the other entry entirely. Drastic I know but if we come down only to pt cost and minimal stat bonuses that another unit does better it may be just a good idea to remove either terminators or strikes completely. This is only from a game standpoint not looking at fluff at all. 

[duz_]

Dont forget all the grenades GKTs have! :D

[TheMostGood]

The reason why you guys are scratching your heads over GKT vs Vanilla Terminators is because you're not supposed to compare and contrast units from different codexes. They are not designed that way. Units in a codex are designed around what that codex does specifically and how those units interact. 

 

Honestly, the biggest reason why they cost as much as they do is because of their psychic abilities. You can cast one and deny one ability. If it is an all GK army, you get +1 to that deny. Which means you will be stopping your opponent from casting on average. I think that is worth the extra 40pts. 

Edited August 19, 2017 by TheMostGood

[Gentlemanloser]

The larger problem is in Codex though.

 

Strike v GKT v Paladin.

 

But there are general comparisons across all imperial codexes.

 

Like the cost of Storm Bolters for example.

[Beams]

As far as I know, stormbolters are now 2 pts in all codices.

[Plasmablasts]

I did some calculations to compare survivability of Paladins vs Terminators, working out the number of unsaved wounding hits to kill a model and then producing a "resilience ratio".

 

Damage 1: GKT - requires 2 unsaved wounding hits to kill; Pal - requires 3; ratio 1.50.

 

D2: GKT - 1; Pal - 2; ratio 2.00.

 

D3+: GKT - 1; Pal - 1; ratio 1.00.

 

Dd3: GKT - 1.33; Pal - 1.78; ratio 1.33.

 

Dd6: GKT - 1.17; Pal - 1.36; ratio 1.17.

 

Melta (D2d6, discard the lower): GKT - 1.03; Pal - 1.11; ratio - 1.08.

 

Nothing too startling there, but Paladins get most of the benefit of their extra wound against D2 weapons. However, using the median damage of a Dd3 weapon (I.e. treating it as D2) considerably over-estimates the relative resilience of Paladin against the Terminator.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Plasmablasts

[Gentlemanloser]

Exactly Beams.

 

Imperial wargear is costed exactly the same in each imperial codex, regardless of what rules or interaction those codexes have.

 

You might suggest that we should have a points increase on Storm Bolters as Teleport Strike and the Teleportarium allows us to get more SB into rapid fire range wicket and easier than any other codex.

 

But we still pay the stock 2 points per, just like everyone else.

[Danarc]

The reason why you guys are scratching your heads over GKT vs Vanilla Terminators is because you're not supposed to compare and contrast units from different codexes. They are not designed that way. Units in a codex are designed around what that codex does specifically and how those units interact. 

 

Honestly, the biggest reason why they cost as much as they do is because of their psychic abilities. You can cast one and deny one ability. If it is an all GK army, you get +1 to that deny. Which means you will be stopping your opponent from casting on average. I think that is worth the extra 40pts. 

I can't agree. Firstly GW told us that this is the most balanced edition ever. The balance could be possible only comparing different units belonging to different codexes. They MUST be designed that way. 

Moreover, as said before, the problem exists also among the units inside the codex GK.

Last of all 40 points for psychic abiliti are insane. And the same value is not provided for librarian or other psychic units in the whole game. 

[TheMostGood]

 

The reason why you guys are scratching your heads over GKT vs Vanilla Terminators is because you're not supposed to compare and contrast units from different codexes. They are not designed that way. Units in a codex are designed around what that codex does specifically and how those units interact. 

 

Honestly, the biggest reason why they cost as much as they do is because of their psychic abilities. You can cast one and deny one ability. If it is an all GK army, you get +1 to that deny. Which means you will be stopping your opponent from casting on average. I think that is worth the extra 40pts. 

I can't agree. Firstly GW told us that this is the most balanced edition ever. The balance could be possible only comparing different units belonging to different codexes. They MUST be designed that way. 

Moreover, as said before, the problem exists also among the units inside the codex GK.

Last of all 40 points for psychic abiliti are insane. And the same value is not provided for librarian or other psychic units in the whole game. 

 

 

It is one of the most balanced editions they have ever made. Balance is first achieved in codex. They have to make sure that how the unit works with other units in your codex makes sense and doesn't break the game. In general every unit should have a purpose, but no unit should feel like an auto-include. That unit is balanced around what other units can do and what your army can do. So, for example, GoI a Land Raider full of troops behind your enemy. All of that is considered.

 

They would then likely look at balance compared to other codexs I'm sure. For example, the smite rule is nerfed for GK for a reason. It was way too strong for normal matched play. If you don't think so then by all means, play a game with the normal smite rules.

 

 

Aside from all that, look at all the things that GKT get for 8pts per model. 

All types of grenades. 

 

Cast a psychic power deny one 

 

Extra damage potential against demons. 

 

Arguably tougher units because of Sanctuary and HtP. 

 

More versatility - close combat weapons good against light and heavy units.

 

Objective Secured!

 

You're telling me that a Space Marine player wouldn't spend 8pts per model to get all of that? Now if the argument is "GKT are not as good as other GK units in the same role" then yea, sure, I can see that. That's kind of the problem for every codex now and in the past, isn't it? In a game of min/max there will ALWAYS be a "best unit" but I can see that argument.

 

But compare and contrast with other similar units in other codex? Not a chance. You can easily spot the difference between the two and see why they are different. 

 

Finally, consider this. If you really feel like GKT should have lower costs to match Vanilla Terminators, then why bother with Vanilla Terminators? Just take GKT, right?