Thoughs on our psychic phase dominance

[TheMostGood]

Faced nids last night in an allied match.

 

Came away with a few thoughts.

 

1. Strikes in Razors are cool, but limit our psychic phase presence, as they can't deny while embarked.

 

2. Nid player got this wrong (would have made little difference if he'd gone for 4 of them) but was casting smite with each individual Zoan, instead of as a unit.

 

Normal smite *hurts*, and puts our watered down version to shame.

 

And if he had 4... 2 smites each doing 2d3 mortal wounds base.

 

On a unit with a 3++ save.

 

3. Shadows of the warp negates our +1 manifest.

 

4. I was out psychic'd by nids...

 

1) I think strikes are there so you have an anchor for your deepstriking troops. Them not being able to deny while embarked is just a small issue.

 

2) I think it would have made a huge difference. Normal smite hurts, but IIRC, you can deny it since it is a psychic power. GK are an all psyker army which means that you're going to be able to challenge nearly everything he tries to cast. Most armies cannot boast that. 

 

Try playing a game where you do not have the watered down version and see how well you do. ;D

 

3) And I'm sure the Nids play is saying the same thing. 

 

4) To be fair, they are supposed to be a scary psyker force themselves. If anything you cancel each other out. 

[Waking Dreamer]

So when it comes to the psychic-heavy armies, I'm curious which ones would give GK's a challenge or even trouble in the psychic phase?

 

I guessing they would be:

- Aeldari

- Thousand Sons

- Tyrannids

- Tzeentch

 

Any other armies to look out for?

[Gentlemanloser]

Not seen Eldar have any real presence in the psychic phase at the moment.

[Captain Coolpants]

I have to agree with the Eldar comment. I've really not been impressed with them (as an opponent or playing them) in this edition... So far

[Godeskian]

I think you're playing the wrong eldar armies if you aren't impressed with them.

 

A friend of mine has a number his own admission not fully optimised army containing seven psychic denies and castings, half a dozen bright lances for anti vehicle, a bunch of I think starcannons (d3 wounds, ap-3 weapons in any case) and a ton of maneuverability

[Blakklist]

I just played NIDs last night. I played this list:

 

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [115 PL, 1996pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 285pts]: Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword

 

Grand Master Voldus [10 PL, 190pts]

 

Lord Kaldor Draigo [12 PL, 240pts]

 

+ Troops +

 

Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]

. 4x Grey Knight (Falchion): 4x Storm Bolter

. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

 

Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]

. 4x Grey Knight (Falchion): 4x Storm Bolter

. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

 

Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]

. 4x Grey Knight (Falchion): 4x Storm Bolter

. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

 

+ Elites +

 

Apothecary [5 PL, 90pts]: Nemesis Force Sword

 

Paladin Squad [19 PL, 275pts]

. 4x Paladin (Falchions): 4x Storm Bolter

. Paragon: Storm Bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

 

Paladin Squad [19 PL, 275pts]

. 4x Paladin (Falchions): 4x Storm Bolter

. Paragon: Storm Bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

 

+ Flyer +

 

Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 326pts]: 2x Hurricane Bolter, 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon, Twin multi-melta

 

++ Total: [115 PL, 1996pts] ++

 

I dominated every single phase. I thought that maybe a GMNDK, Draigo, and Voldus is to redundant with the reroll effects and would be waisted. I was wrong. I lost all my Strike squads and that was it. Wish I could break it down better then that, all I can remember though is his pure frustration at the fact that I denied everything in his psychic phase with the exception of 2 smites and he only denied me once. Wiped the board by middle of turn 3.

[Adeptus]

Off topic, but do you actually have all those models modelled with falchions, or just using counts-as?

[Waking Dreamer]

I just played NIDs last night. I played this list:

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [115 PL, 1996pts] ++

+ HQ +

Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 285pts]: Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword

Grand Master Voldus [10 PL, 190pts]

Lord Kaldor Draigo [12 PL, 240pts]

+ Troops +

Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]

. 4x Grey Knight (Falchion): 4x Storm Bolter

. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]

. 4x Grey Knight (Falchion): 4x Storm Bolter

. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]

. 4x Grey Knight (Falchion): 4x Storm Bolter

. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

+ Elites +

Apothecary [5 PL, 90pts]: Nemesis Force Sword

Paladin Squad [19 PL, 275pts]

. 4x Paladin (Falchions): 4x Storm Bolter

. Paragon: Storm Bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Paladin Squad [19 PL, 275pts]

. 4x Paladin (Falchions): 4x Storm Bolter

. Paragon: Storm Bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

+ Flyer +

Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 326pts]: 2x Hurricane Bolter, 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon, Twin multi-melta

++ Total: [115 PL, 1996pts] ++

I dominated every single phase. I thought that maybe a GMNDK, Draigo, and Voldus is to redundant with the reroll effects and would be waisted. I was wrong. I lost all my Strike squads and that was it. Wish I could break it down better then that, all I can remember though is his pure frustration at the fact that I denied everything in his psychic phase with the exception of 2 smites and he only denied me once. Wiped the board by middle of turn 3.

Do you remember what his tyrannid list was, or even what units he had for psykers?

[Danarc]

With that list you can also add 1 CP just switching 1 HQ and three elites on vanguard(?) detachment.

 

And how did you deploy? 

Edited August 21, 2017 by Danarc

[Blakklist]

@ Adeptus: I have them magnetized so yeah I just switch them all out. (Small magnets suck and don't hold well. Don't recommend magnetizing them at all)

 

@ Walking dream: If I remember correctly I believe he had a Brood Lord, hive tyrant, swarmlord, and a carnifex with a bunch of genestealers, hormagaunts and trygons. I haven't played much against NIDs so I could be wrong on some of what they were.

 

@ Danarc: I did run it with 7 CP, just didn't have it put together like that in BattleScribe. I deployed with the Stormraven as far forward as I could off a little to the side filled with a Paladin squad and the apothecary. And placed the 3 strike squads in cover. He placed his NIDs as far forward as he could as well. First I spent a 2CP for heed the prog on draigo to give him a 2+ invul. I then Alpha strikes draigo, voldus, gmndk and a Pali squad. Also unloaded from the SR the Pali squad and then gated them, left the apothecary in the SR until turn 2. Moved the SR right next to where I planned to drop draigo for his rerolls. I alpha strikes as close to his big models as I could. Killed all 3 10 man squads of genestealers with the SR and storm bolters and psychic phase. Took out two of the bigger models in the charge phase. He almost killed draigo with two of his bigger models but wasn't able too, dropped him to one wound at which point he attacked back and killed one and then I paid 3CPs to attack again and killed the other. Draigo was my MVP, he had hammer hand on him and tour through everything he attacked plus heed the prog to give a 2+ was his saving grace. My next turn spent the psych to kill the rest of his big models and it was game after that. My strikes I brought out to capture objectives and they all died.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Blakklist

[the jeske]

@ Walking dream: If I remember correctly I believe he had a Brood Lord, hive tyrant, swarmlord, and a carnifex with a bunch of genestealers, hormagaunts and trygons. I haven't played much against NIDs so I could be wrong on some of what they were.

 

 

Classic trying out tyranids in 8thed  list. Instead of going for 2-3 units and spaming them times x3-4, he went for 4-5 different ones and this is the result. Plus it seems as if he tried to play a monster mash and swarm list at the same time.

[Gentlemanloser]

Hahaha!

 

At 2K you can run 36 Inquisitors, for +12CP and 36 non nerfed smites.

 

36 18" 1d3/1d6 smites a turn.

[Godeskian]

Hahaha!

 

At 2K you can run 36 Inquisitors, for +12CP and 36 non nerfed smites.

 

36 18" 1d3/1d6 smites a turn.

Hehe, funny, but I don't think you can claim to be playing Grey Knights anymore at that point

[Gentlemanloser]

Ordo Malleus ofc! ;)

[Helycon]

Just make sure you go first, or all will be dead before they get a chance to smite anything :P

[Waking Dreamer]

Pretty good batrep vid:

 

 

Grey Knights Battalion with 2 NDKGM (and 1 NDK) vs Magnus with Tzentch Daemons and Psychic Covens (Tournament-level).

 

A real psychic war!

[Waking Dreamer]

A question about our GK Librarians, I noticed with the increase of their WS and BS they can now DtW TWO times! Is that unique to our GK librarians or did Codex SM libbies also get that buff?

[Valerian]

A question about our GK Librarians, I noticed with the increase of their WS and BS they can now DtW TWO times! Is that unique to our GK librarians or did Codex SM libbies also get that buff?

 

No, regular Marine Librarians stil have the 3+ WS and BS, and only Deny once per turn.  

[Waking Dreamer]

 

A question about our GK Librarians, I noticed with the increase of their WS and BS they can now DtW TWO times! Is that unique to our GK librarians or did Codex SM libbies also get that buff?

 

No, regular Marine Librarians stil have the 3+ WS and BS, and only Deny once per turn.  

 

 

Not bad, a much better differentiation between our GK Libbies and the SM ones. While the SM libbies keep their better smite, our GK libbies are more inclined to the martial side of battle - whether in the shooting or combat phase, while also being more resilient against enemy psykers.

 

I guess I have a good niche for my 2 GK libbies when Im doing team up battles with brother's army (who have no psykers at all). I can just situate my 2 libbies on his side of the table, giving him 4 DtW a turn for his army, should enemy psykers try to wreak havoc on his battlelines with psychic shenanigans.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'm strongly considering a Librarian again after codex changes. We have probably the best psychic defense in the game to begin with, and when you stack +1 from Psychic Hood with Brotherhood of Psykers, you're already +2 to your opponent psychic test roll.

 

Do people think a Librarian is worth it over a Brother-Captain? I like that the Captain brings Smite double range and is still a combat beast, but I will be fighting Chaos Sorcerors etc so psychic defense bonuses would help. Thoughts?

[Godeskian]

So, I gave some thoughts following our epic 8 person, somewhere in the region of 20,000 Point game we had on Monday that lasted 9 hours, only made it to turn 3 and involved over 250 Orks as a single army

 

Basically its like this. I have been chafing under the rule of one and nerfed smite restrictions because they seemed to be less about bringing balance then they were about hamstringing all psyker armies.

 

Well, on Monday I spent my game dealing with two deamon players with no rule of one and if nothing else it's made me believe in the rule of one.

 

With no restrictions on powers, I more or less did the following. All my GMNDK got sanctuary and purge soul, all my Paladins and strikes got purge soul, and all my various characters (voldus Draigo etc) were carrying some combination of purges and vortexes.

 

Yes I could have gone for GOI or Hammerhand, but I judged, correctly I think as it turned out, that ultra aggressive psychic was the was way to go, and secondly that GoI was wasted due to spending my entire game caging the deamon players, both of whom had set up in one corner.

 

Two Magnus (one for each player) horrors, summoners, rubric marines, hell hounds, etc.

 

The reason I now approve of the rule of one and even our nerfed smites is that mass purge soul and 3 point smites utterly decimated my opponents.

 

I never made it off my 2*4, even though we had six of them for our game board, but when we wrapped I had nearly singlehandedly, and at the cost of nearly two thirds of my forces held both deamon players in place and trashed most of their armies, including taking out both Magnusses, all their infantry and summoned creatures and even a squad if Ork Warbosses.

 

I almost walked off with MVP for it too, as it essentially made the rest of the game a 3-2 affair.

 

Without limitation, our psychic powers are unbalanced and utterly brutal. I think I had something like 18 denies in total once all the characters and strike squads were accounted for allowing me to simply overwhelm both their psychic attack and their psychic defense by sheer weight if numbers. It was ludicrous. Fun for one game, but I'm actually glad I don't play like that often.

[Holier Than Thou]

Your GMNDKs shouldn't have got Purge Soul AND Sanctuary, they only know 1 power on top of Smite.

 

I still think the problem with the Rule of One for Psyker heavy armies could easily be addressed if old Blessing-type powers could target the caster PLUS a single unit within 3" or 6". This would stop characters being separated from bodyguard units when casting a movement power which is stupid, without making us/Daemons/etc brokenly powerful.

[Godeskian]

Your GMNDKs shouldn't have got Purge Soul AND Sanctuary, they only know 1 power on top of Smite.

 

 

Ah. Bugger, that's a bad on my part. Not that I did much purge soul with the GMNDK anyway, but still that one is on me.

 

I still think the problem with the Rule of One for Psyker heavy armies could easily be addressed if old Blessing-type powers could target the caster PLUS a single unit within 3" or 6". This would stop characters being separated from bodyguard units when casting a movement power which is stupid, without making us/Daemons/etc brokenly powerful.

You might well be right, but I doubt they'll make that kind of sweeping change until the next edition at the earliest

[Danarc]

No one is thinking that rule of one shouldn't exist or that our SMITE should'd be nerved. 

Simply our IC should have the normal version of smite, as TS IC.

[Aethernitas]

No one is thinking that rule of one shouldn't exist or that our SMITE should'd be nerved. 

 

Speak for yourself

 

I still believe the rule of one is an incredibly unimaginative solution to the psyker problem. For me a +1 on the casting roll for each subsequent cast of a power still makes the most sense. After about 20 matched play games with GK in 8th I'd say our nerfed smite is fine and we don't need normal smite on characters. Having played some of the campaign missions using narrative rules the need to somehow restrict us in our psychic phase became obvious. The Sanctuary/GoI spam gets silly very fast.