Linebreaker Bombardment

[Filkarion]

...or how I learned to stop worrying and love the Vindicator 

 

Why there is almost no talk here or the lapdogs ( :P ) forum about this stratagem and how it makes Vindicators a lot better?

 

Well, I admit I still have to try them out but on paper they seem great!

 

The BIG problem with Vindicators is relatively short range, meaning it usually needs at last at last one turn of movement to shoot where is needed.

 

Spending one CP offsets this problem and grant you a very powerful attack, meaning you can move forward 10" and shoot with no penalty (the wording seems very permissive, as I see no limitation on the fact that the 3 Vinidicators should be able to shoot or not...but let us take the rules as if they should, it still seems very good to me) to an effective range of 34 (plus 3")

 

Even if one (or all!) of the vindicators has only one wound left, the LB stratagem is still at full power

 

3" range is a 6" plate! With almost all auras having 6" this grants at least one unit+character "hit". 4+ or even 5+ are not a bad place to spend another CP for a reroll (bringing the 5+ hit to a 55% of probability)... you also force the enemy to spread out for pure fear and I see this as another advantage, as massed Imperial guards artillery tanks formation massively benefits from cover los blocking terrain... Also you have to see the point, not your target, so you can shoot something behind a wall, if said wall is less then 3" tick...

 

So, it seems to me awesome on paper...anyone have tested it on the table?

 

 

 

[Panzer]

I'd definitely take them in an Iron Warrior army since it doesn't sound too terrible and there's barely anything more fluffy than Vindicators for IW. :D

[Filkarion]

also, this

http://twilightvisions.com/KotZ/GoldAttacks/AthenaExclamationGOLD.png

[Filkarion]

I'd definitely take them in an Iron Warrior army since it doesn't sound too terrible and there's barely anything more fluffy than Vindicators for IW.

 

I'm playng with the idea of a "Scream of Slaneesh" converted Vinidicators formation

[the jeske]

any formations that to work requires for 3 not invunerable units/models have to survive is not going to work in a game focused on shoting, unless the weapon range is over 48" or the table played on is very specific [tall LoS blocking terrain on the whole table, lots of corners, but the interesections are 18"+ away from each other and the terrain that is LoS makes it impossible for fly units to properly move on the table].

[Commissar K.]

I like the one for the trio of Predators a lot but not so much the Vindicators. Prime reason indeed being as jeske said, range.

However for all narrative purposes go for it! The reason I only own one is also because Im not a huge van of the Vidicator design to begin with. 

The more guns the better and all that :p It is nice that they also got a drop in points though so for sure give it a try if you have the models!

[Panzer]

 

I'd definitely take them in an Iron Warrior army since it doesn't sound too terrible and there's barely anything more fluffy than Vindicators for IW.

 

I'm playng with the idea of a "Scream of Slaneesh" converted Vinidicators formation

 

Heh, yeah. Vindicators with BIG speakers for EC is an idea I've been playing around with for a while already. Tho I already can't fit all the units I'd like to take in a list without Vindicators anyway and there's still the question of whether we will be able to use Vindicators once we get the EC codex. ^^

[Filkarion]

any formations that to work requires for 3 not invunerable units/models have to survive is not going to work in a game focused on shoting, unless the weapon range is over 48" or the table played on is very specific [tall LoS blocking terrain on the whole table, lots of corners, but the interesections are 18"+ away from each other and the terrain that is LoS makes it impossible for fly units to properly move on the table].

The formation does not need to work the entire game, as I think once they are within 24 of the enemy the Vindicator are good as punch/distraction carnifex for their points (ironically, if I remember correctly, almost the same of the original 3.5 distraction carnifex^^)

So I expect max 2 turns of advance+LB, then every surviving Vindi for itself. I know it's not a small investment, still it's the cheapest HS choice in the codex except for Heavy Bolter Havocs, that is useful if you aim for a Brigade Detachment

[Marqol]

I don't think it's really worth taking as you have to spend a lot just to get this one shot out. Which has a 50/50 chance of not hitting. If the Vindicators their selves had a good basic attack it'd be a different story. Heavy D3/D6 is just too random for such a close range vehicle. The predator stratagem works as the preds can sit back and just provide fire support. But with the vindicators you have to keep them moving together and the opponent can just move his models away while firing at you.

[Panzer]

It should definitely be Heavy 1d6/2d6 imo. And that goes for most former blast weapons.

Edited August 21, 2017 by sfPanzer

[Sception]

I don't like the vindi one so much, because I don't like vindis as much on their own.  The pred strat is a great bonus, but once you lose a predator or run out of command points they're still great individually.  Vindicators not so much.

[Lord Asvaldir]

3" range is a 6" plate! With almost all auras having 6" this grants at least one unit+character "hit". 4+ or even 5+ are not a bad place to spend another CP for a reroll (bringing the 5+ hit to a 55% of probability)... you also force the enemy to spread out for pure fear and I see this as another advantage, as massed Imperial guards artillery tanks formation massively benefits from cover los blocking terrain... Also you have to see the point, not your target, so you can shoot something behind a wall, if said wall is less then 3" tick...

 

So, it seems to me awesome on paper...anyone have tested it on the table?

 

Yeah on paper 6" pie plate sounds awesome if we were talking about the old 7th edition blast templates, but in this case it's a pretty mediocre blast because you're only hitting units within 3" of the point, not models, so unless you're lucky and your opponent is really bunching up units that's only two units you're hitting at most, and if it's a unit under ten models there's even only a 50/50 chance of even hitting the targets. Not granted 3D3 mortal wounds is nothing to sneeze at but still it's a lot of "ifs" for the stratagem to really work, and you have to spend all three of your heavy slots and a lot of pts for it to work out. Considering we have a lot of great stratagems, I'd pass on this one. 

[Filkarion]

Well, all your points are good. I will proxy 2 Vindi with my rhinos and hopefully get empirical data this week.

My expectation are lowered, but still I feel there are some advantages.

I don't think my opponent will simply ignore the risk, so will spread out his forces instead of mass his units on cover. Also, I hope for a fire magnet.

3" is not so much, still it's 2 units, and leaving more than 6" between a lot of units should disturb his deployment... So, those are the  main advantages I will aim for, instead of pure damage, so if the BOOM happens I will consider myself lucky^^

[Panzer]

Well, all your points are good. I will proxy 2 Vindi with my rhinos and hopefully get empirical data this week.

My expectation are lowered, but still I feel there are some advantages.

I don't think my opponent will simply ignore the risk, so will spread out his forces instead of mass his units on cover. Also, I hope for a fire magnet.

3" is not so much, still it's 2 units, and leaving more than 6" between a lot of units should disturb his deployment... So, those are the  main advantages I will aim for, instead of pure damage, so if the BOOM happens I will consider myself lucky^^

Also what's a rock concert without some huge ass speaker. :P

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I would say go with it in an IW list as well. Or Slaanesh (or both...."smells like victory"). That speaker idea is awesome. THINGS SHALL GET LOUD NOW!!!

 

Vindis got reduced in points and you can mount a combi-weapon and a Havoc on each of them without much fuss. That way, they can still do some damage and exploit their Toughness 8 even once this isn't useful. They can also fire some of the Combis while Advancing and the ones that are not the focus of the Bombardment can put some damage in. I believe you can Warptime the shooter and have the other two Advance to maintain distance. Run a Daemon Prince and some other faster units behind to exploit the Vindi wall for some charges or other shenanigans.

 

As a note, like the OP said, you just have to see the point, and you're not targeting anything else. You can character snipe until they deal with it ....

 

(James Bond Villain voice) "Goodbye, Mr. Yarrick."

 

As long as you keep a second command point handy to re-roll the 1/3 chance of hitting the character, that is.

 

2CP for dead Commissar (since most people only bring 1)? Yes, please.

 

If you want even more investment (and annoyance), you can have 3 different Psykers of 3 different Marks cast all 3 of the unique god buffs, 1 on each Vindi (each one dedicated to a different god....bonus points for different color paint jobs). One will be at -1 for the enemy to hit, one will have a 5+ Invuln, and the other will ignore all wounds on 5+. 

 

VINDICATOR SENTAI POWERS ACTIVATE!!!  (Seriously, please don't do it if you have no other use for 3 Psykers.....but since Sorcerers are nice, and at least one of those could be a Daemon Prince you should be able to find something else for each one to do as well).

 

Also, nothing says that the other two can't pop smoke. It just says that they can't shoot their cannons and that they all have to have LOS. So you could very feasibly protect one with a spell and have the other two smoke.

 

All of this aside, don't do ANY of it unless you want to base your army around an advancing tank spearhead. It should be part of the overall army synergy, not something that the entire army is bent unnaturally to accommodate (I hear Daemonettes giggling at that one...."bent unnaturally").

 

So Cultist screens, infantry optimized for countercharges, and characters in the middle for Aura buffs. I would bring 2 Warpsmiths, personally. Helbrutes could offer both countercharge and additional long range fire, as well as further Warpsmith synergy. Rhinos to block LOS  as you close would be interesting, but ONLY if they serve another function as well.

 

Alternately, you could ball up Daemon Princes behind the Vindis and use the Character rule plus target priority frustration to really mess with your opponent.

Edited August 21, 2017 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Panzer]

Vindis got reduced in points and you can mount a combi-weapon and a Havoc on each of them without much fuss.

Hm...for some reason I never noticed before that we have Havoc Launcher and a unit called Havocs. Maybe I'll need to do something like this

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

Vindis got reduced in points and you can mount a combi-weapon and a Havoc on each of them without much fuss.

Hm...for some reason I never noticed before that we have Havoc Launcher and a unit called Havocs. Maybe I'll need to do something like this

 

Is that the famed Predator Angrinator?

[the jeske]

 

any formations that to work requires for 3 not invunerable units/models have to survive is not going to work in a game focused on shoting, unless the weapon range is over 48" or the table played on is very specific [tall LoS blocking terrain on the whole table, lots of corners, but the interesections are 18"+ away from each other and the terrain that is LoS makes it impossible for fly units to properly move on the table].

The formation does not need to work the entire game, as I think once they are within 24 of the enemy the Vindicator are good as punch/distraction carnifex for their points (ironically, if I remember correctly, almost the same of the original 3.5 distraction carnifex^^)

So I expect max 2 turns of advance+LB, then every surviving Vindi for itself. I know it's not a small investment, still it's the cheapest HS choice in the codex except for Heavy Bolter Havocs, that is useful if you aim for a Brigade Detachment

 

A. 3.5-4th ed carnifexs were killing stuff and drawing fire away, and they had infiltrating genestealers in minimax formations of 4-5 units. so the comperation is bad.

B dakka fex were cheap. 3 vindicators are not cheap.

C expecting a unit of 3 to be alive for 2 turns, in "another edition of strong shoting" when chaos has to chaff that can keep up with 3 vindicators and protect them from all sides from alfa strikes[which would cost a lot less then a formation, and running vindicators without formation is like taking short range lemman russes with less resilience in IG aka a bad idea]

D As much as CP  is important maximizing CP over army over utility is not the way to go, if  the army is suppose to work. And trying to do that by taking bad units, to maybe get a single big shot in a game[and that is if your opponent doesn't get turn one, or doesn't know the rules] seems like a big strech to make the whole thing viable in anyway

E blast stuff is really bad this edition. To make the vindicator formation useful, the opposing army would have to be low count/elite, full of multi wound stuff, with little to no chaff and no alfa strike ability, preferably no shoting at all. And this description fits, I don't know, a csm army build around possessed or demons build around Keepers or Secrets.

[Panzer]

Yeah back then Carnifexes weren't really distraction Carnifexes yet. They were just a dangerous unit that needed to get focussed. A distraction Carnifex is a unit that people think does way more damage than it actually does (usually because it was a good unit in the past or because it looks big and important) while still being tanky enough to soak a good amount of damage.