Awake the Ancients, Dreadnoughts and their place.

[chapter master 454]

Quick note: while I would love to have them included, I do not have the forgeworld book nor models for the forge world dreadnoughts and variants (contemptor options seem to open up if you upgrade to forge world).

 

 Dreadnoughts are a long standing iconic unit of space marines and have often been considered a good unit no matter the edition for various reasons. Be it from their humble origin as the trademark tar pit unit for those ork boyz all the way to now where they seem to of evolved into a more lore respective form, now bale to form the spearhead of any attack. Similarly these iconic walking care homes have evolved dramatically in their options with us marines originally only having one choice to now what seems like too many to pick; be it the original, the venerable or the more esoteric choices of ironclads, contemptors and now redemptors now adding their lot in. The question is now however with the radically different landscape of 8th edition changing even our beloved Old Aged Pensioners dreadnoughts have had a rather interesting shift into the edition.

 

First off it wouldn't be unfair to say dreadnoughts got a slight shift in power with which I would argue they got slightly nerfed. Originally dreadnoughts could carry the big guns, march across the board and give heave ho with blazing guns with no issue. Now their ability to take fire isn't in anyway hurt (in fact they feel just as durable) but these old boys seem to have problems of the hip or maybe it's their eyesight as now these heavy hulking war machines now suffer from the heavy weapon type. This means dreadnoughts have a hard time moving across the board and maintain effective firepower as their guns now only hit 50% of the time. Seems the veterans must be getting used to their new arm chair.

 

That being said they are still highly effective and despite losing some minor options (the notable 'rifle' dread of twin-twin-autocannons) they retain a rather large array of weapons. Only exceptions to this are the contemptor we standard issue boys can get our hands on and the new redemptor however both have their caveats to this (contemptors bring increased toughness and a super assault cannon while the redemptors lack of options is reinforced by having loads of guns and being a tough tin can).

 

This means regardless of your preference there is a dreadnought for your needs. Be it the jack of all dreads, the melee focused ironclad or maybe you want to just bring all the guns of the redemptor but where do they all fit? I am going to put my thoughts forward on each and I encourage counter points to my thoughts and discuss the tactics you use with your dreadnoughts.

 

 Vanilla and Venerable Dreadnought: These two are the oldest dreadnoughts in our arsenal having been a thing for a long time. Both are based on the same chassis of design however one just adds to the idea with better WS and BS along with a rule to attempt to make it more durable. These might war machines however with the lack of being able to move and fire with full effect of their main guns these are now imo retired to the less popular but still present mortis pattern, mounting a missile launcher backed by your choice of main gun. This does neglect their melee ability however as the DCCW now costs more than the missile launcher, this is not only the cheaper option but doesn't clash interests against the heavy weapons the dread brings.

 Contemptors: these guys get a note underneath the standards due to their similar loadout under codex issue. These guys have no choice but to deal with their heavy weapons issue if they want to backhand some enemies. However this is offset by their increase wound pool coupled with their invulnerable save. However their only real choice is to replace the rather sub-par multi-melta choice with their unique choice: the Kheres assault cannons. This weapons is a fairly potent weapon against light armour and infantry. not much to say on these guys personally sadly, I do not have any and to be honest it seems these guys really shine once you unlock their true power with forge world.

 

 Ironclads: these as the 'juggernaut' of dreadnoughts. While the redemptor is larger and more heavily armoured, these dreads come with a nasty set of melee tools and will turn most charged into mince meat. While they can take a hurricane boltgun coupled with some good ol' HKs (hunter killer missiles), their true strength comes from taking the enemy into a melee that few could survive. While not meant for light infantry, these terrors will quickly carve up tanks as even their own dreadnought chainfist dishs outs 4 damage per failed save. Coupled with if it keeps both melee weapons on, it gets to re-roll 1s in combat. These dreads certainly do what they are designed for well. They do have to get across the board but being toughness 8 means that only anti-tank weapons will be doing damage regularly and you don't need to worry so much about lighter weapons taking your last wound.

 

 Redemptors: these are the newest member of the family and oh boy, guns guns guns. Granted, most are what would be considered 'defensive' however this makes it a rather impressive firebase. A high wound pool, decent save and Toughness coupled with some powerful weapons makes this dreadnought a great fire platform for shredding light infantry while either laying tanks out with a mega plasma cannon or just racks up kills while sawing infantry in half with the new onslaught gatling cannon. Certainly a scarey opponent with guns to back it up. again, not deployed one yet so can't say much personally but from theory this dread should be a real menace.

 

What are your thoughts fellow brothers? 

[Gothical]

I love Dreadnoughts.

 

The standard Dreadnought suffers most from the -1 To Hit penalty when moving with Heavy Weapons. That is why, when I am planning a mobile role (keeping up with Rhino Tacticals) I will opt for a Venerable (to still hit on 3s even when moving). I feel the basic Dreadnought is best with something like Lascannon & Missile Launcher, using it as a long-ranged firebase. Keeping a DCCW and Storm Bolter is reasonable if you want a counter-charge unit.

 

The Venerable is excellent in two roles, advancing with shorter-ranged weaponry (Multi-Melta, Assault Cannon) or simply for highly-accurate high-power shots (Twin Las) and potent melee threat; the other is Lascannon & Missile Launcher as an anti-air platform as it will hit on 3s if stationary - very little that flies can survive that sort of attention.

 

The Ironclad is the one I have the hardest time selecting a role for, as Chapter Tactics do make a difference here. I would go for either Hurricane Bolter, Chainfist and Heavy Flamer (especially for Ultramarines who can fall back from combats and still shoot), or Dreadnought CCW, Seismic Hammer (the two melee weapons gives the Wrecker ability, partially off-setting the drawback of -1 To Hit on the Hammer and you still have the DCCW against infantry), and either dual-Heavy Flamers or dual-Meltaguns. Ironclad Assault Launchers and Hunter-Killer Missiles can further add to the output against hard targets.

 

The Redemptor I am still awkward about, but mostly as I am keeping all my Primaris-styled units in a separate army and therefore the self-imposed restrictions make it harder to assess. Sometimes I prefer the anti-tank output of an overcharged Macro Plasma Incinerator, other times I want the sheer number of S5 shots of the Heavy Onslaught Cannon. I tend to pair the Storm Bolter with the Plasma and the Frag Launchers with the Onslaught, and nearly always take the Onslaught Cannon on the Power Fist and Icarus Rocket Pod for anti-air. It is a powerful beast compared to the other Dreadnought types, but being unique in having a degrading profile is a drawback too.

 

The Contemptor should stay in the Heresy 

 

What I really want to draw attention to is the Wisdom of the Ancients stratagem which is fantastic. It either helps your Dreadnought to mitigate BS issues (for example, partially off-setting the moving penalty) or simply adds output whilst acting as a Captain for surrounding squads, allowing you to spread auras further throughout your army. Very handy if Overcharging a Redemptor (or lesser Plasma Cannons) too.

[Timur]

Learn to respect the Contemptor.  It's points to stat-line/weapon load out makes it a monster.

 

The loss of moving and firing is not worse than the change to any weapon any target, as well as the increase in T (overall) in 8th.

Even w/o factoring in stratagem (Iron Hands), and the re-rolls available through captains/grandpa smurf/etc.

 

Venerables have a BS of 2 so roll 3+ to move and shoot. Ditto Contemptor.

 

You can take Index options such as 2x Autocannon, Las/Autocannon, etc. legally as per FAQ.

Btw. Venerable rifleman is swanky.

 

You should check out this thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336520-unit-of-the-week-dreadnoughts/

[Syphid]

Forgeworld Siege Dreadnought!  We Dark Angels can't take regular Ironclad - but we can take its cousin, the Siege Dreadnought.  It can take Frag Launchers, Siesmic Hammer with Meltagun, and a Multimelta/Flamestorm Cannon/Twin Autocannon/Twin Lascannon.  This monster is T8 and with its array of high-W weaponry it can inflict a staggering amount of damage in a single turn.

 

Multimelta+Meltagun+Lucius Drop Pod will rip up any opponent's backfield. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Syphid

[Stickeh]

I run a 1st company list since 8th with at least 4 squads of terminators. Initially I had two contemptors with kheres assault cannons in the list but recently I've swapped them out for two venerable dreads. The biggest advantage is the lack of wound degradation, it's surprisingly easy to put a couple wounds on a dreadnought which drastically reduces effectiveness. The lower movement is a pain when keeping up with a land raider, but it tends to make me play overly aggressive anyway.

 

On top of that my first company list has a plethora of assault cannons, and so the contemptors kheres assault cannon is less desirable. A twin lascannon fills my missing ranged anti tank role far better, and keeping the DCCW maintains a melee threat.

[Captain Idaho]

I love the Venerable Dreadnought! I use mine as a gun platform, wielding Twin Linked Lascannon and a missile launcher. It's a Devastator squad in performance but can move and still fire reasonably well. Special mention for its anti-air capacity as a -1 isn't too much of a problem when you hit on a 2+ to begin with.

 

The Contemptor is amazing. 10 wounds and an invulnerable save make it more survivable as the Redemptor when being targeted by AP-3 weapons. It is quick also, meaning you can charge in after a decent shooting attack thanks to its 2+ to hit. Overall I rate the Contemptor highest on the threat level index and thus will be soaking fire like no one's business. Degrading stats isn't actually the problem you might think for Contemptor Dreadnoughts as they have to go really low to drop below a 3+.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I've been using a massed formation: three Venerables and an Ironclad.  It's a big block of high-Toughness with plenty of post-armor saves due to Unyielding Ancient and the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics.  With the Techmarines in my list repairing them and the Captain footslogging next to them for re-rolling 1's, it's a big mean cluster of angry metal that does not die quickly.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I am loving my Redemptor. Leviathans are amazing in 8th.

[GreyCrow]

I do find that the Dreadnoughts are in a bit of an odd spot, much like they were before but slightly differently.

 

What do the Dreadnoughts synergize with is my big question. They require AT weapons to be dealth with efficiently, but I find that they have a hard time synergizing with other units in the Marines codex :

- They synergize with other AV for survivability, but they are the slowest vehicle in our Codex

- They synergize with infantry in engagement conditions, but they don't require the same weapons to get dealt with, so without spamming AV, they're going to die.

- They are pretty expensive versus other vehicles (a dakkapred is just 10 points more expensive than AssCan/HF dreads and has a pretty solid engagement range and dakka), cost about the same as a Landspeeder with arguably less dakka.

 

The one thing they have going for them is that they are spammable within the higher priced base detachments due to Elites having slightly more slots than the rest. 6 Dreadnoughts at 2000 points sound like a fun proposition!

 

Perhaps their best uses is to be in infantry lists, pretty much like distraction carnifexes?

[Captain Idaho]

It's a rare Marines army without a Rhino etc ;)

 

The Dreadnought, especially Venerable, is a solid anti tank platform able to punch holes even in flyers thanks to a 2+ to hit that doesn't degrade.

 

They operate as a firebase anchor. Put them alongside that Lieutenant and Devastator squad and use Wisdom of the Ancients. You won't be disappointed.

[GreyCrow]

It's a rare Marines army without a Rhino etc

 

The Dreadnought, especially Venerable, is a solid anti tank platform able to punch holes even in flyers thanks to a 2+ to hit that doesn't degrade.

 

They operate as a firebase anchor. Put them alongside that Lieutenant and Devastator squad and use Wisdom of the Ancients. You won't be disappointed.

 

For the Dual AC version, for sure. That being said, aren't other type of firebases more cost efficient? 

 

The CP point has them act indeed as a micro Captain for a turn. Not sure whether it's worth planning around or very useful situationnally :)

 

I still stand by the spam version of dreadnought strategies :P One with t7 and 8 wounds just doesn't cut it, a Deva team will melt one each turn.

[Gentlemanloser]

Doomglaives are the cheapest option to get a heavy psycannon on. Plus they have smite, 1 power, can deny, are Venerable and have a Damage d6 melee weapon.

 

All for 168 points with a storm bolter.

 

They are an amazingly good all round unit.

 

If only they could assault units in upper floors of ruins...

Edited October 26, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Captain Idaho]

I still stand by the spam version of dreadnought strategies :P One with t7 and 8 wounds just doesn't cut it, a Deva team will melt one each turn.

Wait, why wouldn't you want more than 1 in your army? They reek of cool!

 

Regarding firepower options - Twin linked Lascannon and missile Launcher is fairly efficient actually. It puts a decent amount of damage out in hard boiled targets like vehicles. A great supplement to a Devastator squad.

[GreyCrow]

When I was talking spamming, I was talking 1 per 10-15 Tacticals in the army, wtihout any other support :P

[Iron Father Ferrum]

My list had four Dreadnoughts, at 1 per 5 Troops models (2×5 Tacticals, 10 Scouts). Did okay. Edited October 31, 2017 by Iron Father Ferrum

[GreyCrow]

My list had four Dreadnoughts, at 1 per 5 Troops models (2×5 Tacticals, 10 Scouts). Did okay.

 

Do you think you were too Dreadnought heavy and lacked Troops for volume of fire against chaff?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Nope.  I had paired TFCs to handle chaff.  I was wiping squads of Fire Warriors and Tactical Marines off the map with no problems.

[GreyCrow]

Oh okay, thought you only had that in your list ! :D Makes sense then !

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Battalion + Vanguard, CT:IH.

 

Terminator Captain with Shield Eternal & Thunder Hammer

Librarian with force sword

Techmarine with full harness & power axe

 

5x Tacticals (plasma & combi-plasma)

5x Tacticals (plasma & combi-plasma)

10x Scouts (Snipers, ML, cloaks)

 

Las/plas Razorback

Las/plas Razorback

 

TFC

TFC

Hunter

 

Ironclad with seismic hammer, 2x heavy flamers, assault launchers

Venerable with twin las, CCW, heavy flamer

Venerable with plasma cannon,  CCW, heavy flamer

Venerable with assault cannon, CCW, heavy flamer

 

 

And I think that was everything.  Drew against Ultramarines (due to time), drew against Tau (due to time), won against Salamanders.  I would have won both draws if we'd had more time, too; I was attritioning them out of units.  In either case, the Ironclad mostly functions as a Distraction Carnifex.  Turn one, it always Advances and pops smoke.  The Venerables get two FNP rolls and I use a combination of marching the Captain behind them and the IH stratagem to keep them shooting accurately even on the move.

 

The one issue with the army is that it while it plenty of range, it's fairly slow and is more built on durability than anything else.  I'm thinking of pulling the Ironclad out and maybe one of the Venerables to squeeze in a Tactical Terminator squad.  I haven't played with the points at all, but being able to magically appear wherever I need them -- especially in light of the Raven/Alpha/Alaitoc trait continuing to spread -- seems like a good idea.

[GreyCrow]

Nice !

 

Has anyone had any battlefield experience with a PC/ML build?

 

I'm considering buying a new dreadnought and the options associated, and I see often TLC/ML builds for main AT, of AI.

Curious about PC/ML because both weapons are pretty average, but the two working together could bring some interesting synergy theoretically.

 

Maximal output on this build is 9 deaths when firing at infantry and 12 wounds against vehicules, challenge being high variance.

Rifledread gives 8 infantry and 16 wounds against vehicules, with AP being a bit more of a challenge than the previous build.

TLC/ML gives 8 dead infantry and 18 wounds against vehicles, challenge being number of shots.

I'm well aware that this is utmost best case scenario and should not be relied on. Just spitting it.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I was actually thinking about that myself.  I happen to have a Dreadnought ML without a home at the moment, and pairing it with my PC Dread doesn't sound like a terrible idea.

[GreyCrow]

I was actually thinking about that myself.  I happen to have a Dreadnought ML without a home at the moment, and pairing it with my PC Dread doesn't sound like a terrible idea.

 

If you happen to run it on the battlefield, I'd be very curious about the performance.

 

It looks like an average output, which could be a good distraction for better weapons in Tactical Squads for instance!

[Iron Father Ferrum]

My reasoning is that it's a pretty nice combination of weapon damage stats.  If firing at infantry, you've got a d6 and a d3, one at low strength effective against light infantry and one at high strength for heavy infantry.  If firing at a vehicle and you overcharge the plasma, that's a potential four hits at S8 with decent AP values across the board.  The ML adds greater hit volume against infantry and higher potential damage values against vehicles without invalidating the plasma cannon.

[GreyCrow]

Yeah that was the theory I had in mind !

 

Need practice though !

[Knoffles]

I love dreads and they are the single reason I started a SM army and I'll be running the 4 I own in my initial lists (Redemptor, Ven and 2 Ironclad).

Being an utter noob at 40k though I do have a question. If running 2 foot slogging ironclads what loadouts would you take? 2 ccw or a chainfist and hurricane bolter? (Or one of each). I wasn't sure if the combo of ccw and ranged would be better in order that it would be able to contribute in the event of kiting?

Also are the assault launchers worth it? 5pts seems quite cheap but I know what my single dice rolls are like!