Blood Angel Lore vs. Gameplay Identity

[Blindhamster]

I have been slowly adding BA bits to my primaris stuff, different pads, fancy pendants etc.

[Indefragable]

Regarding New Coke Space Marines (ok ok Primaris), it will be interesting to see if DA, SW, and BA all get some type of unique Primaris unit as well. I'm picturing melee-oriented Inceptors, Deathwing Aggressors, and like I don't know, Primaris Marines that catch frisbies really well.

[Djangomatic82]

Regarding New Coke Space Marines (ok ok Primaris), it will be interesting to see if DA, SW, and BA all get some type of unique Primaris unit as well. I'm picturing melee-oriented Inceptors, Deathwing Aggressors, and like I don't know, Primaris Marines that catch frisbies really well.

I'd put my money on Reivers getting the option to take a jump pack. Might be interesting as a first strike unit, with their shock grenades and combat knives. 

[Tonius]

I hope Primaris geneseed factory Will be destroyed by a warp storm and we'll keep our regular marines.

Ho yes, I really don't like primaris models and stuff.

 

Ok I stop interfering...

[Arkangilos]

They don't have a factory. Literally every chapter was given the means to create them.

[Blindhamster]

I love the primaris and hope we see more new units for them over the next 12 to 24 months.

 

I really doubt we will see chapter specific units for them for a while. But maybe chapter specific upgrades for existing units.

 

Special pistol option on a reivers for example could make sense.

[Quixus]

Just because we would be vanilla+ doesn't mean we need access to everything they have. There actually are units that do not fit the character of the chapter (centurions, for example).

While I agree with the statement in general, GW dropped the ball in the selection of units we do get.

Our recruits are supposed to be more aggressive and more fond of close combat from the get go, but we don't get a transport for them (LS Storm)

We are supposed to be the kings of the skies, but we only get a third of the flyers other marines get.

We really don't need bloated marines (centurions) and a point can be made for thunderfire cannons not fitting our style of warfare. On the other hand we do have tarantulas which are even more static.

 

And then there is the weird thing that every chapter is supposed to have ~40 suits of artificer arrmour plus spares, for their sanguinary guard, but cannot spare even one for the characters.

 

 

Regarding New Coke Space Marines (ok ok Primaris), it will be interesting to see if DA, SW, and BA all get some type of unique Primaris unit as well. I'm picturing melee-oriented Inceptors, Deathwing Aggressors, and like I don't know, Primaris Marines that catch frisbies really well.

I'd put my money on Reivers getting the option to take a jump pack. Might be interesting as a first strike unit, with their shock grenades and combat knives.

Sounds interesting but I think CC Inceptors would fit at least as well for BA, just exchange one mini HB with a power weapon, maybe make the ridiculously looking shield on the other worth something.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Quixus

[Charlo]

Oh, hey..! It's THIS thread again :P

 

Always a good'un too.

 

I think while we all eagerly await what GW is going to serve us on a bloodied platter in the upcoming codex, in reality I think unless a LOT of effort, creativity and love is put in, BA will once again be left in the middle of the road with a strange niche that isn't really useful while missing key units from the Vanilla Dex (Heresy pattern TDA, flyers etc).

 

At this point other than a few unit fixes (SG invuln, DC 5+ FNP, sort out our pistol's) I'm not even sure what to suggest that people haven't already.

 

Alpha strike is a fluffy niche, but easy to make a one trick pony or not fun to play against.

 

Jump packs as a speciality have mixed love in the community, but I think with our premier things being all packed up (including veteran's etc) it makes sense. More speed is fine by me.

 

I don't mind the aura style, we are without a doubt the most selfless and heroic chapter, but special characters are too expensive in the current state.

 

I just hope we aren't exclusively fixed onto combat. It's broken right now unless you are a horde of nids/ Orks or a berserker wave with 50 attacks per model. Morticon's (now closed) topic covers that well.

 

Really, just being hyper aggressive is all I want. That's why I love BA. We go fast, we hit hard and we fight to the last man standing. None of this "run out of combat so we can shoot you" that the Ultras are doing, surprise centurions of the Raven Guard or "dare you attack my fort" of the IF.

 

We are the shock and the awe. The Angels of ritcheous fury. The fire and thunder from the heavens.

 

=====

 

Okay so some new ideas...

 

LD shenanigans: Deathmasks have started this, what about more? Bit Night Lords but makes sense.

 

Better Consolidate all around: 6" like the DC dread. Means of we do wipe stuff, the shattering charge only disrupts the enemy more.

 

Bigger Heroic intervention: keeps our characters bouncing into combat with us.

[Frater Antodeniel]

Fluffwise, Primaris are full of holes :

 

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The Gene-seeds :

 

- How does the implantation/transformation process work ? (Most specially for Blood Angels, who already are an exception with all 18/19 organs implanted in a single process)

 

- Given the specificity of the 3 new organs, they would require the subject to already master its previous "gifts". Maybe an evolution pattern like Scouts => Astartes => Primaris, with the Primaris forming the 1st company of enhanced Astartes who proved themselves worthy and survived the second implantation process.

 

- More stable Gene-seeds nearly immune to the severe genetic instability suffered by Chapters such as the Blood Angels and Space Wolves over the course of their existence. But how does it work on the already severly flawed Gene-seeds such as the Flesh Tearers ?

 

- Also, since the fluff state that an Astartes can be "upgraded" to Primaris, how does this Astartes Gene-seeds reacts to the new organs ? Does they extract the previous Gene-seed (the one remaining in the neck), throw it away (Heresy !), and replace it by a shiny new Primaris one ?....or does the old, flawed, Gene-seed is just "upgraded" to accept the change and the new organs ?....this leaving the flaw unchanged.....it does not evolve anymore, but it is still very present...

 

The Weaponry :

 

In the fluff, two sides of the coins face each others. One one side, the whole Imperium is getting dry of raw and rare material that are required for its Wars. On another side, the Mechanicum is rumored to kept unbelievable amounts of ressources in reserves. The true may lie in both, but one thing is certain, and it is that with the Imperium split in two, ressources are divided and rares. So how will the Astartes chapter be able to fully change their Power armour, Weapons, Vehicles, Ammunitions....with limited ressources.

 

Amongst the rarest of ressources (Aknowledged in by both the Imperial and the Mechanicum lore) are those required to build Anti-gravitic Vehicles, and Plasma weaponry.....but surprise, those two form a large part of the Primaris stuff. Oo

 

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And i'm sure there are more fluff-holes about the Primaris.

 

All of this list for what ? => Just to say that you need to build your own fluff to make it match the new Primaris stuff, depending of the chapter you play.

 

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One the Good Side of the Primaris Coin, are the models themselves :

 

All Primaris come with Knee-pads, which is a very good thing, notably for Blood Angels.

 

Intercessors and Agressors are good looking models, that are more fitting fluff-wise than the others. The firsts are True-scale tactical, and the second are better looking Centurions.

 

But best of all Primaris, is the Apothecary, the jewel of the crown. Just replace the hand that hold a Gene-seed with the one that hold a Blood Calice, plus add some Blood Angels bits here and there, and you can end up with a very good looking Primaris Sanguinary Priest.

[Blindhamster]

Fluffwise, Primaris are full of holes :

 

--------------------------------------------------

 

The Gene-seeds :

 

- How does the implantation/transformation process work ? (Most specially for Blood Angels, who already are an exception with all 18/19 organs implanted in a single process)

 

 

Someone that clearly hasn't actually read anything official - good job. The process even for blood angels doesnt have them all get implanted "at the same time" they're implanted over the course of a year, so its a faster process but not instant.

 

 

 

- Given the specificity of the 3 new organs, they would require the subject to already master its previous "gifts". Maybe an evolution pattern like Scouts => Astartes => Primaris, with the Primaris forming the 1st company of enhanced Astartes who proved themselves worthy and survived the second implantation process.

 

 

The organs are implanted alongside other organs, not later. The Sinew Coils and Magnificat are implanted  after the biscopea and before the haemastamen. The final, most important primaris organ is the belisarian furance, which is implanted after the oolitic kidney.

 

 

- More stable Gene-seeds nearly immune to the severe genetic instability suffered by Chapters such as the Blood Angels and Space Wolves over the course of their existence. But how does it work on the already severly flawed Gene-seeds such as the Flesh Tearers ?

 

Cawl confirmed that the only instabilities and flaws remaining after his process are the ones the emperor designed he gene seed to have. Also note that technically, there is no such thing as flesh tearers gene seed, ultimately its still blood angels gene seed, the primaris marines given to each chapter will be from the source legion gene seed.

 

 

 

- Also, since the fluff state that an Astartes can be "upgraded" to Primaris, how does this Astartes Gene-seeds reacts to the new organs ? Does they extract the previous Gene-seed (the one remaining in the neck), throw it away (Heresy !), and replace it by a shiny new Primaris one ?....or does the old, flawed, Gene-seed is just "upgraded" to accept the change and the new organs ?....this leaving the flaw unchanged.....it does not evolve anymore, but it is still very present...

 

 

There is ZERO fluff to say a marine can be upgraded.  There was a single comment in a twitch chat before the new edition. So far we don't know how true it is, and theres no indication on how it would be done.

 

 

The Weaponry :

 

In the fluff, two sides of the coins face each others. One one side, the whole Imperium is getting dry of raw and rare material that are required for its Wars. On another side, the Mechanicum is rumored to kept unbelievable amounts of ressources in reserves. The true may lie in both, but one thing is certain, and it is that with the Imperium split in two, ressources are divided and rares. So how will the Astartes chapter be able to fully change their Power armour, Weapons, Vehicles, Ammunitions....with limited ressources.

 

Amongst the rarest of ressources (Aknowledged in by both the Imperial and the Mechanicum lore) are those required to build Anti-gravitic Vehicles, and Plasma weaponry.....but surprise, those two form a large part of the Primaris stuff. Oo

 

 

Lore for the anti grav tech the primaris use is that its rather... inefficient and a brute force method. In terms of Plasma, they aren't incapable of making new plasma weapons, and much like there is a new mk of armour that was being built over all this time, the same is true of the plasma weaponry.

 

 

And i'm sure there are more fluff-holes about the Primaris.

 

All of this list for what ? => Just to say that you need to build your own fluff to make it match the new Primaris stuff, depending of the chapter you play.

 

As noted above, the "holes" you point out, are just a lack of your own understanding.

 

 

 

 

 

On topic:

 

I think we have a fair chance that they'll do a decent job with our codex, everything else thats been released so far has been decent.

[Panzer]

100% agreed with what Blindhamster said. Tho lets don't turn this into a Primaris yay or nay thread. That would go too much into offtopic for this thread.

 

 

Regarding the Codex. I don't expect anything awesome. Most things will look like C:SM with some added flavour here and there which will be what makes the codex shine or fall. If GW decides to give BA and other Space Marine sub-factions some real love it will be a few years in the future, not now when they are trying to give everyone a decent Codex asap.

[Quixus]

 

Fluffwise, Primaris are full of holes :

 

--------------------------------------------------

 

The Gene-seeds :

 

- How does the implantation/transformation process work ? (Most specially for Blood Angels, who already are an exception with all 18/19 organs implanted in a single process)

 

Someone that clearly hasn't actually read anything official - good job. The process even for blood angels doesnt have them all get implanted "at the same time" they're implanted over the course of a year, so its a faster process but not instant.

 

Maybe not instantly, but aren't the recruits in some coffin-like device the whole time?

 

 

- Also, since the fluff state that an Astartes can be "upgraded" to Primaris, how does this Astartes Gene-seeds reacts to the new organs ? Does they extract the previous Gene-seed (the one remaining in the neck), throw it away (Heresy !), and replace it by a shiny new Primaris one ?....or does the old, flawed, Gene-seed is just "upgraded" to accept the change and the new organs ?....this leaving the flaw unchanged.....it does not evolve anymore, but it is still very present...

 

There is ZERO fluff to say a marine can be upgraded.  There was a single comment in a twitch chat before the new edition. So far we don't know how true it is, and theres no indication on how it would be done.

 

Are you sure about that? I think I remember reading something about how Guilliman saved Baal and afterwards at least some of the BA veterans were made primaris.

 

[Blindhamster]

yep, sorry for going off topic!

 

 

i'm really interested to see where they go with our rules, as everyone else has said, we've had something of an identity crisis for some time.

 

I do quite like the idea of us having a set rule of some kind - possibly advance and charge as our base rule. But then a rule that is both a positive and a negative like Ark said. Great idea!

Quixus - being in the coffin the whole time wouldnt stop the extra organs being implanted along the way, as for the BA veterans becoming primaris - nah, nothing like that. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for regular marines to be upgraded, but so far its purely hearsay.

[Jarl Caldersson]

 

Is that actually Sanguinius? I mean, the wings, duh. I've heard people say it's everything from the Sanguinor, to one of the Emperor's light-ghost thingies, to just a symoblic depiction (like the snake vs eagle on "the" warhammer on the cover, etc...

 

I think so. It's not the Sanguinor. He has a Jump Pack, not actual wings. The figure looks like it's wearing a death shroud and Sanguinis has always been like a Christ figure. I don't know, but I'd like to think it is. Honestly fluff wise I would be annoyed, but the model would be so amazing I wouldn't care. Plus, I've seen how ridiculous Bobby G. is on more than one occasion. I'd love to field a flying version of him.

 

 

The novel Dante has a picture of Dante and the Sanguinor, the Sanguinor is hovering without a jump pack (or the smallest one ever mode) and with wings. This one look like it is half naked though, and Sanguinor is armored.

[Morticon]

My thoughts on this are related to better costing of our key units. 

My gripes with the combat system being known already, all that needs to be done is to make the BA-specific units tactically viable over shooting options. 

Looking at "chapter tactics" of other armies there's not much that is "broken good".  Some are definitely stronger than others, (Sallies + Raven Guard in my view) but there's nothing fundamentally "WHOAH!!".  

 

With that in mind, I think a simple quirk would be good.  What would be even better and fluffier would be a 3rd/4th ed era flaw.  We lost models to the DC, we had to advance under certain circumstances, but the Strength and Initiative boost was great because of it. 

This wont work in 8th because of how tepid and unrewarding combat is.  

 

Because of this....


My suggestion would be that BA infantry/walkers/JP prevent withdrawal from combat.  Ideally, i'd wish this was standard, but would be alright with a roll-off or as a compromise, a roll-off with a modifier based on who wins combat.  

It rewards players for getting into combat with infantry, rewards players for having synergized lists and a more BA aggressive theme. 

[Silas7]

With the alpha legion getting a copy/paste of raven guard CT does anyone anticipate GW doing the same to BA, which is the most likely to work if GW goes down that road?

[Indefragable]

With the alpha legion getting a copy/paste of raven guard CT does anyone anticipate GW doing the same to BA, which is the most likely to work if GW goes down that road?

If GW were to go down that path, World Eaters or Emperor's Children are what I would guess we would mirror. Or some combo of their traits.

 

Morticon:

 

My concern with our unique units is that even would the price drop, I still don't think they carry their weight. I.e. Sanguinary Guard =\= flying Centurions. Furioso Dreadnoughts =\= Ironclad or Venerable Dreads.

 

Granted we should not be a direct substitute, but our army can not achieve similar enough effects for roughly the same price point with what we have.

[Djangomatic82]

Looking over the Chaos Codex, I kinda hope we get an ability similar to the Khorne Berzerkers. Maybe, in order to differentiate us, make it where we can shoot again after a successful charge, even if we are within 1" of an enemy unit. prob give it to assault marines, make taking flamers an actual interesting and flavorful option.
 

[brother_b]

 

My suggestion would be that BA infantry/walkers/JP prevent withdrawal from combat.  Ideally, i'd wish this was standard, but would be alright with a roll-off or as a compromise, a roll-off with a modifier based on who wins combat.  

 

It rewards players for getting into combat with infantry, rewards players for having synergized lists and a more BA aggressive theme. 

 

I could see them giving us a free attack against models trying to withdraw. I'd be happy with that.

[Panzer]

 

My suggestion would be that BA infantry/walkers/JP prevent withdrawal from combat.  Ideally, i'd wish this was standard, but would be alright with a roll-off or as a compromise, a roll-off with a modifier based on who wins combat.  

 

It rewards players for getting into combat with infantry, rewards players for having synergized lists and a more BA aggressive theme. 

 

I could see them giving us a free attack against models trying to withdraw. I'd be happy with that.

 

That would be pretty nice for a unit with pistols. Fall back and get hit or stay and get shot with pistols. :D

But ultimately it would make BA units more into something to bully weaker units. Such a rule would do nothing for us against the scary melee units out there.

[TheHarrower]

I'm a bit behind on my reading, but in the Swallow books we were more of a Codex chapter. How are the Blood Angels depicted in the newer books (Dante, Mephiston, etc.)?

[Panzer]

I'm a bit behind on my reading, but in the Swallow books we were more of a Codex chapter. How are the Blood Angels depicted in the newer books (Dante, Mephiston, etc.)?

As the name suggests the books are more about Dante and Mephiston. From what little we've seen about the chapter itself tho it still shows us as codex compliant with lots added Blood Angel flavor.

[Blindhamster]

Both books have us using stormhawks however lol.

[Indefragable]

Both books have us using stormhawks however lol.

Yea, Stormhawks and Stormtalons are regularly used by the BA in those books. In Dante at least, BA are always holding back just a bit lest the Thirst take over. The few anecdotes they show are pretty nuts. A lone BA up against a wall takes out a whole squad of Nurgle Marines with his chainsword...and not in a Mary Sue way. He just had nothing to lose so he goes all out.

 

It also hints that the BA are artisans both in peace and war, with the 5 Graces (of art) balancing out the "other side" (not shown but I'm heading the 5 Rages or something).

[Tonius]

 

Both books have us using stormhawks however lol.

A lone BA up against a wall takes out a whole squad of Nurgle Marines with his chainsword...and not in a Mary Sue way. He just had nothing to lose so he goes all out.

Well that lone BA is just young battle brother Dante... :)