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Blood Angel Lore vs. Gameplay Identity

Blood Angels Fluff 8th Edition rules

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#151
Arkangilos

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Their culture also wasn't as well defined, and like I said they still had the flaw. People still fell to it. Sanguinius knew this and took care to foster the culture that would fight it. Remember, even Cawl said that the Emperor placed it there for a reason.

We will see when Angelus comes out. Right now we only have a book from Swallow, and even his 40k stuff tended to leave the Red Thirst as something that barely existed, so we know how much Fear to Tread means for the actual lore.

Edited by Arkangilos, 06 September 2017 - 12:46 PM.

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#152
pandion40

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Our chapter like others has changed over time, each codex has added to the Blood Angels to greater or lesser extent. Most of our background is present in the 2nd edition codex, but following the codex have expanded different areas.

I note your quotes are both from third edition, nothing wrong with that book it did a lot to bring the bloodthirsty maddening effect of the flaw to the forefront. It's major flaw in my eyes was it's small size. There wasn't enough room to explore the Blood Angels background in full so they wisely concentrated on our most obvious feature, the flaws. They did a great job expanding on the info about the flaws from the Angels of death codex, especially with such little room but by necessity they ignored our other background and in my opinion they unbalanced us.

Many of our subsequent codex were longer, so they explored other aspects of our background, I also think third did such a great job with the flaw in 3rd that there was little else to say. The following few codex explored the angelic side of our army. They kept the Bloodthirstyness expanded on in 3rd but really added to our artistic angelic side. I think the ward dex was chief here, ward had a lot of issues but I'm thankful for that codex at least.

It could be argued our rules have swung to far in the other direction and that we need a return to more of the savegry of third. Personally I think they need to relook at all aspects of our background, both the angelic and the flaws and combine them in a way that exemplifies the shock and awe we're supposed to posses. I love the Blood Angels but haven't loved a Blood Angels codex in a long time. I'd read the 2nd, 3rd and ward dexes many times just for fun, they made me want to play. The codex after the ward dex was very boring to me and due to this and other issues I stopped playing and only just returned so never read the dexes after that

The other major issue is we're a codex army with issues, but how different should we be, different people put that line in very different places. I lean towards more differences myself, at the moment we have our own codex mainly because we're popular, I'd like to increase our differences to make us more deserving of a codex. But others, even Blood Angel fans, would prefer to reduce our differences and put us into the Marine book.

#153
Aothaine

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A few people have mentioned the close-combat oriented focus of Blood Angels. I agree to an extent. We have to remember that these are still Space Marines and while they like to get stuck in then also have tactical acumen. Blood Angels are not World Eaters. I could easily see a stratagem for Blood Angels allowing them to fire Heavy Flamers after advancing on Infantry/Dreadnoughts/Tanks. 

 

Shock and Awe: +1 ld to other friendly units within 6" of another Blood Angels unit that is in melee combat with an enemy. -1 ld to the unit that is in melee combat with a Blood Angels unit.

 

Another rule that I would like to see is possibly allowing our units to disembark after a transport moves. The unit would lose it's movement but could still assault.


Edited by Aothaine, 06 September 2017 - 01:33 PM.


#154
Blindhamster

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so we know how much Fear to Tread means for the actual lore.

 

His 40k books are set in a timeline that cannot happen due to the events that happened with 8th ed.

Fear to Tread is canon, regardless of if you like that fact - the same is true for the entire heresy series.

The flaw is there, but for the majority of the legion, they do not feel its effects during the early/mid crusade. The rare few that succumb to it appear to go full on vampire though - which fits well with the 40k depiction as seen in "Dante".

 

By the time of 40k it's far more prevalent than it was during the heresy - which matches up with lore we have about the BA gene seed degradation (highlighted as recently as "Dark Imperium").

It has become a defining factor for 40k Blood Angels because like their progenitor, they are obsessed with the flaw, being terrified of succumbing fully to it and determined to cure it.

In terms of it's depiction in "Dante", it frankly didn't seem to have much of a downside for the immediate fight, and only became an issue because of the lasting effects on the Marine, in both instances it kicks in when their life is on the line and they're already in close combat situations.

So, giving it a purely beneficial mechanic doesn't seem so out of place for the red thirst, assuming its a melee only benefit.

 

If it was campaign play it'd need a complex mechanic where any model that got the bonus from the red thirst (extra attacks on 6s or whatever) also had a chance to sit out the next game or be lost entirely. But in campaign play, we'd also need a mechanic to generate death company too.


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#155
Blindhamster

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Shock and Awe: +1 ld to other friendly units within 6" of another Blood Angels unit that is in melee combat with an enemy. -1 ld to the unit that is in melee combat with a Blood Angels unit.

 

quite like that.


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#156
Arkangilos

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I wasn't saying it wasn't cannon, I am saying he doesn't focus on what makes BA unique and isn't all that accurate. Rather than saying it isn't cannon, I'm saying it's shallow (and it is. We have nothing that gives them a unique flavor in that book)
Hence my, "wait for the Angelus" statement, because that will be what fleshed the BA out.

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#157
TheHarrower

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Shock and Awe: +1 ld to other friendly units within 6" of another Blood Angels unit that is in melee combat with an enemy. -1 ld to the unit that is in melee combat with a Blood Angels unit.

 

quite like that.

 

 

I like that a lot too. Still would need something else on top of it, but that's a great idea.


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#158
Silas7

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If BA were nothing but red ultras and instead of a crazed adherence to the Codex it's a crazed affinity for CQC I'd still find them more interesting both crunch and fluff wise.


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#159
Charlo

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Shock and Awe: +1 ld to other friendly units within 6" of another Blood Angels unit that is in melee combat with an enemy. -1 ld to the unit that is in melee combat with a Blood Angels unit.

 

quite like that.

 

I like that a lot too. Still would need something else on top of it, but that's a great idea.

 

Maybe treading on Death Mask's toes slightly...


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#160
sfPanzer

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Shock and Awe: +1 ld to other friendly units within 6" of another Blood Angels unit that is in melee combat with an enemy. -1 ld to the unit that is in melee combat with a Blood Angels unit.

 

quite like that.

 

I like that a lot too. Still would need something else on top of it, but that's a great idea.

 

Maybe treading on Death Mask's toes slightly...

 

Well Death Masks would work additional to that then. Tho then we kinda become the WE/EC/NL chapter I think. :D


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#161
Indefragable

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I think Death Masks should provide an Invuln save. That way you can keep yer Sangunary Guard (relatively)cheap if you want, but also equip them to actually survive if you feel like paying for them. 5pts for 4++ and -1Ld? They could be a BA style Iron Halo of sorts.

...maybe Sanguinor and Dante's Iron Halo's then interact with their boosted Death Masks, so they can re-roll invulnerable saves of 1 ala Cataphractii Terminator Captain of 7th. There's a mouth watering thought.

I would also like to see The Death Mask of Sanguinius (Dante) interact with other Death Masks somehow. -Ld stacks? Re-roll 1's in Saving throws (or maybe re-roll a single save roll of 1 per phase/Turn/lunar cycle)?

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#162
Aothaine

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We could get something else that might be cool like this.

 

CQC Fighting: Blood Angel infantry equipped with bolters may fire their bolters as if they were pistols when in melee combat with an enemy unit.

 

I think it is important to remember that Close Combat doesn't always mean chainswords. It could be that we just prefer being close up and have trained for it.



#163
Withershadow

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Since Blood Angels are not going to be getting a splash release with a ton of new models, I would not expect any deeply thought out or super original ideas.  There will be a lot of copy and paste from both the Marine and Chaos codex.



#164
sfPanzer

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Meh. The Pistol rule is pretty weak imo. It only matters when you get charged or are losing a fight in the first place because else the enemy would just fall back instead.


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#165
Aothaine

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Meh. The Pistol rule is pretty weak imo. It only matters when you get charged or are losing a fight in the first place because else the enemy would just fall back instead.

 

Yeah... that is true. :/ Ahh well. I just hope it isn't something like reroll charges or something. My Flesh Tearers are more geared toward close range firepower(flamers).







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