T'au 8th Ed. Wishlisting

[Panzer]

I know those things but it doesn't change anything about a single high strength attack hitting on 3+ at best being bad.

[Triszin]

"Pulse Driver Rifle"

 

a 2 slot weapon option for crisis suits.

[Waking Dreamer]

Onager Gauntlet

- S10 AP-4 Dmg 2d6

- Each time the bearer fights, it can make one (and only one) attack with this weapon.

- A damage roll 10+ the bearer suffers a mortal wound

- Always hits

 

Fusion Blades (Melee)

- S8 AP-4 Dmg d6

- Each time the bearer fights, it can make two (and only two) attack with this weapon.

- Roll two dice when indicting damage and discard the lowest result. 

- You can can re-roll failed hit rolls for this weapon

 

^ Now, how do they compare to the only other melee relic weapon in the Tau codex, that is Farsight's very own Dawn Blade:

- S8 AP-4 Dmg d3

- Hitting on 2+

- Four attacks.

- Re-rolling 1's to hit. 

 

Worthy...?

[Triszin]

Onager Gauntlet

- S10 AP-4 Dmg 2d6

- Each time the bearer fights, it can make one (and only one) attack with this weapon.

- A damage roll 10+ the bearer suffers a mortal wound

- Always hits

 

Fusion Blades (Melee)

- S8 AP-4 Dmg d6

- Each time the bearer fights, it can make two (and only two) attack with this weapon.

- Roll two dice when indicting damage and discard the lowest result. 

- You can can re-roll failed hit rolls for this weapon

 

^ Now, how do they compare to the only other melee relic weapon in the Tau codex, that is Farsight's very own Dawn Blade:

- S8 AP-4 Dmg d3

- Hitting on 2+

- Four attacks.

- Re-rolling 1's to hit. 

 

Worthy...?

why not just make the

 

Onager Gauntlet

- S8 AP-3 Dmg d6

- re-roll 1's to hit (against vehicles and monstrous creatures)

 

slightly weaker, but can now attack without the "only once rule"

[Waking Dreamer]

^ For the standard 4A that profile is fine and much better overall when it comes to math-hammer. For me though, it loses a bit of the Gauntlet's flavour/uniqueness.

 

At the moment when I envision the Onager Gauntlet in action, rather then a flurry of attacks to do the damage - I see one strategically placed punch, devastating whatever is in front of it!

 

Something akin to this:

 

 

 

Also from the lore it's described that, "Armed with the Onager Gauntlet, a Battlesuit could punch a hole through the side of an Imperial main battle tank and rip out its power core with ease." Considering this, I'm in favour of keeping it's profile at S10 AP-4, to wound a Leman Russ tank on 3s, and completely tearing through it's armour save.

 

^ So having all the above playing in my head, I want to translate that onto the Onager Gauntlet's rules but still be fairly good on the table. So maybe:

 

Onager Gauntlet

- S10 AP-4 Dmg d6

- Roll a d3 to determine the number of automatic hits with this weapon. (For it's explosive / aoe like damage)

- You can re-roll failed wound rolls for this weapon if the target is a VEHICLE. (For its main use against Imperium battle tanks)

- Damage rolls of less than 3 count as 3 for this weapon. (It's min. damage wouldn't be less than that of a stock standard T-hammer)

 

Fusion Blades (Melee)

- S8 AP-4 Dmg d6

- Each time the bearer fights, it can make two (and only two) attack with this weapon. (For its inclination to shorten out during combat)

- You can can re-roll failed hit rolls for this weapon when the target is a MONSTER. (For its main use against Tyrannid Bio-monsters)

- Roll two dice when inflicting damage and discard the lowest result. (Should have inherit Melta / Fusion rule)

 

Dawn Blade

- S8 AP-4 Dmg d3

- Each time an enemy unit is destroyed with this weapon, Farsight regains a previous lost wound. (For Farsight being 300+ years past his natural expiry date)

[Triszin]

^ For the standard 4A that profile is fine and much better overall when it comes to math-hammer. For me though, it loses a bit of the Gauntlet's flavour/uniqueness.

 

At the moment when I envision the Onager Gauntlet in action, rather then a flurry of attacks to do the damage - I see one strategically placed punch, devastating whatever is in front of it!

 

Something akin to this:

 

 

 

Also from the lore it's described that, "Armed with the Onager Gauntlet, a Battlesuit could punch a hole through the side of an Imperial main battle tank and rip out its power core with ease." Considering this, I'm in favour of keeping it's profile at S10 AP-4, to wound a Leman Russ tank on 3s, and completely tearing through it's armour save.

 

^ So having all the above playing in my head, I want to translate that onto the Onager Gauntlet's rules but still be fairly good on the table. So maybe:

 

Onager Gauntlet

- S10 AP-4 Dmg d6

- Roll a d3 to determine the number of automatic hits with this weapon. (For it's explosive / aoe like damage)

- You can re-roll failed wound rolls for this weapon if the target is a VEHICLE. (For its main use against Imperium battle tanks)

- Damage rolls of less than 3 count as 3 for this weapon. (It's min. damage wouldn't be less than that of a stock standard T-hammer)

 

Fusion Blades (Melee)

- S8 AP-4 Dmg d6

- Each time the bearer fights, it can make two (and only two) attack with this weapon. (For its inclination to shorten out during combat)

- You can can re-roll failed hit rolls for this weapon when the target is a MONSTER. (For its main use against Tyrannid Bio-monsters)

- Roll two dice when inflicting damage and discard the lowest result. (Should have inherit Melta / Fusion rule)

 

Dawn Blade

- S8 AP-4 Dmg d3

- Each time an enemy unit is destroyed with this weapon, Farsight regains a previous lost wound. (For Farsight being 300+ years past his natural expiry date)

thats pretty overpowered.

auto hits, triggering a min of 3 dam per hit?

[Panzer]

Honestly, the only way I see the Onager Gauntlet to be reliable enough to take while maintaining the feel of it is to give it S14-16 so it can wound T7-8 on a 2+ instead of a 3+. We'd still have to hit on a 3+ with a single attack but that's just how it is as T'au player. Maybe give it a +1 to-hit if the target vehicle moved only up to half of its movement before so it'd go up to a 2+ followed by a 2+ at least.

Considering how much of a high-risk that weapon is (between enemy lines hugging a tank is not exactly where we want our Commander after all) I'd say AP-4 and D1d6 (minimum 3) is fair game as well.

[Bryan Blaire]

I don't think the Onager Gauntlet has ever been described with an area-of-effect power, has it?

 

I think the best we'd see with it might be a second attack profile for it in the vein of an "Overcharged" weapon, maybe it adds 5 Strength, but can only make one attack and risks also doing Wounds to the battlesuit due to internal structure damage or strain to the power core, etc.

[Panzer]

Yeah it hasn't. It's really just a damn strong punch. Not even any forcefield included like with powerfists or such.

I mean there's a reason why it's just a Signature System. It's not because it's so good that it's rare, it's because it was such an inefficient way to fight tanks that everyone who used it died on the battlefield so all but one exemplar got lost. With that in mind it's kinda silly that we try to turn something that has proven to be bad fluff-wise into something good crunch-wise. :D

[Waking Dreamer]

That's a lot of good input guys. At least now we have cut-offs where we have iterations of the Onager Gauntlet being "bad at best" and one that is "pretty overpowered".

 

We now have a good basis of pinpointing the sweet spot in the middle with the preference of being reliable against a Leman Russ Battle Tank.

[Waking Dreamer]

Onager Gauntlet
- S10 AP-4 Dmg d6
- Each time the bearer fights, it can make one (and only one) attack with this weapon.
- You can re-roll failed hit and wound rolls for this weapon if the target is a VEHICLE. 
- Damage rolls of less than 3 count as 3 for this weapon.

 

So if we align it with the lore against a Leman Russ Battle Tank:

- Hits on 3s re-rolling failed

- Wounds on 3s re-rolling failed

- 3-6 Damage

 

Hmm, looking alright for a one-of-kind relic that either costs the opportunity of another Tau relic, or 1CP to also include into your army? I mean why would you include in a wishlist thread a flat-out BAD relic? That's already reality for us in the current codex we have NOW...lol

 

Also, I'm inclined of opting for the initial dmg 2d6, instead of dmg d6 (min. dmg 3) so in comparison you would have:

- Dmg 2-12 Avg. 7  /  Dmg 3-6 Avg. 4

 

^ Remember for 1A, passing the To-Hit, the To-wound, and possible passing an Invul. save...maybe dmg 2d6 is a preferable "reward" for a intrinsically "high-risk, high-reward" Tau relic...?

[Waking Dreamer]

I think the best we'd see with it might be a second attack profile for it in the vein of an "Overcharged" weapon, maybe it adds 5 Strength, but can only make one attack and risks also doing Wounds to the battlesuit due to internal structure damage or strain to the power core, etc.

 

Yeah, that was something that was in my first iteration of the Onager Gauntlet. Suffering one mortal wound was something I'd pay for inflicting 10+ damage during the fight phase. Literally stopping point blank an undamaged Razorback / Leman Russ dead in it's tracks, but suffering recoil damage is still epic nonetheless.

[Triszin]

Onager Gauntlet

- S10 AP-4 Dmg d6

- Each time the bearer fights, it can make one (and only one) attack with this weapon.

- You can re-roll failed hit and wound rolls for this weapon if the target is a VEHICLE. 

- Damage rolls of less than 3 count as 3 for this weapon.

 

So if we align it with the lore against a Leman Russ Battle Tank:

- Hits on 3s re-rolling failed

- Wounds on 3s re-rolling failed

- 3-6 Damage

 

Hmm, looking alright for a one-of-kind relic that either costs the opportunity of another Tau relic, or 1CP to also include into your army? I mean why would you include in a wishlist thread a flat-out BAD relic? That's already reality for us in the current codex we have NOW...lol

 

Also, I'm inclined of opting for the initial dmg 2d6, instead of dmg d6 (min. dmg 3) so in comparison you would have:

- Dmg 2-12 Avg. 7  /  Dmg 3-6 Avg. 4

 

^ Remember for 1A, passing the To-Hit, the To-wound, and possible passing an Invul. save...maybe dmg 2d6 is a preferable "reward" for a intrinsically "high-risk, high-reward" Tau relic...?

much better, but I would change one thing to what spfpanzer said

 

 

Onager Gauntlet

- S14 AP-4 Dmg d6

- Each time the bearer fights, it can make one (and only one) attack with this weapon.

- You can re-roll failed hit and wound rolls for this weapon if the target is a VEHICLE. 

- Damage rolls of less than 3 count as 3 for this weapon.

 

 

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I also disagree with the AOE effect. as I view that should either be a weapon, or it "already is int he game"

 

the signature Defense system, forget the name atm, but it causes dam to things close to it.

[Marshlands]

In terms of fixing current weapons so id at least consider them (at their current points)

 

Airbursting projector: option to double range but change to Heavy

Plasma rifle: rapid fire 2 or at least assault 2

Burst cannon: it's almost there but maybe a stratagem to make them 6 shots but heavy with gets hot

[Trevak Dal]

Burst cannon either rapid 4 or 24" assault 4.

 

Plasma 30" rapid 2 or damage 2.

 

Missile pod assault 3.

[Panzer]

I honestly think Burst Cannons are mostly fine as they are. :huh:

[Triszin]

I honestly think Burst Cannons are mostly fine as they are.

ya, burst cannon is like perfect the way it is.

 

missle pod, burst and fusion, flamer are all fine.

 

its the other items that need a utility added to them to make em better.

 

 

I'd leave the stats for airburst fragmentation projector alone.

 

but add Utility to it.

you may choose to fire the below instead, at the same range/

- Electro warefare grenades: target has -1 BS for the next turn

- Photon grenades: photon grenade rule

- Marker Light flare: Target counts as having 3 marker lights on it for the next turn.

[Marshlands]

To be fair my issue wasn't that burst cannons are bad, but in terms of internal balance they lose out to every other option. I'd like something a little unique to them to compete with the fire warriors and gun drones

[Happy-inquisitor]

If we are just in fantasy land of rules that are never going to happen:

 

Onager Gauntlet S10 AP-4 D(D6) Subtract 1 from hit rolls with this weapon, if an attack with this weapon misses it may not be used for the remainder of the current fight phase.

 

Fusion Blades (melee profile) S8 AP-4 D(D6) If an attack with this weapon misses it may not be used for the remainder of the current fight phase.

 

With both of the above I want those dice rolls to matter and for my opponent to sweat it when a commander equipped with one of those starts swinging.

 

AFP - gets its Ignores Cover rule back

 

Plasma Rifle - Damage 2. Increase the points in line with the improvement

 

Multi-tracker; if a model equipped with a multi-tracker targets all of its weapons at a single unit with 5 or more models re-roll to hit rolls of 1 with shooting, if it targets all of its weapons at a single unit with 10 or more models re-roll all misses with shooting. Note: not restricted to the shooting phase so it also works against hordes in overwatch.

 

Seriously has anyone ever been even remotely tempted to take a multi-tracker with its current rules?

 

 

[Waking Dreamer]

If we are just in fantasy land of rules that are never going to happen:

 

Onager Gauntlet S10 AP-4 D(D6) Subtract 1 from hit rolls with this weapon, if an attack with this weapon misses it may not be used for the remainder of the current fight phase.

 

Fusion Blades (melee profile) S8 AP-4 D(D6) If an attack with this weapon misses it may not be used for the remainder of the current fight phase.

 

With both of the above I want those dice rolls to matter and for my opponent to sweat it when a commander equipped with one of those starts swinging.

 

So, you're saying each weapon starts with the default 4 attacks but the player has to roll them one by one. On a 4+ (after -1 to hit), they get to attack again with the relic, but if they miss that's it - no more attacks with it?

[Panzer]

I'd honestly never take either the Fusion Blades nor the Gauntlet with those rules. Hoping on a 4+ is just terrible. Way too unreliable. If you bring your Commander into melee you don't want a 50% risk of him simply doing nothing. I take the two attacks hitting on 3+ of the current Fusion Blades any day of the week, thanks.

 

Multi-tracker is bad, yes. It was bad before and then GW nerfed it even further. Not sure why it would get better when there are more targets in your version though. Doesn't make much sense.

[Marshlands]

It's hard to think of something that would make multi tracker work - if anything id go the other way but with a bigger bonus. maybe +1 to hit as long as each weapon on the model shoots a different unit, maybe then id be tempted but it would be horrible to administrate

[Triszin]

It's hard to think of something that would make multi tracker work - if anything id go the other way but with a bigger bonus. maybe +1 to hit as long as each weapon on the model shoots a different unit, maybe then id be tempted but it would be horrible to administrate

+1 to hit squads with 5+?

[Marshlands]

 

 

It's hard to think of something that would make multi tracker work - if anything id go the other way but with a bigger bonus. maybe +1 to hit as long as each weapon on the model shoots a different unit, maybe then id be tempted but it would be horrible to administrate

+1 to hit squads with 5+?

That would be decent on a stormsurge, riptide or broadsides, depending on cost of it probably still not worth it for crisis suits compared to just another weapon, considering most weapons you shoot at units of 5+ are likely to be quite cheap anyway

 

Edit: I guess that's the problem with it in general, a buff to shooting light stuff can't compete with another gun, still better than the buff it has now which is virtually obselete lol

[Triszin]

 

 

It's hard to think of something that would make multi tracker work - if anything id go the other way but with a bigger bonus. maybe +1 to hit as long as each weapon on the model shoots a different unit, maybe then id be tempted but it would be horrible to administrate

+1 to hit squads with 5+?

That would be decent on a stormsurge, riptide or broadsides, depending on cost of it probably still not worth it for crisis suits compared to just another weapon, considering most weapons you shoot at units of 5+ are likely to be quite cheap anyway

 

Edit: I guess that's the problem with it in general, a buff to shooting light stuff can't compete with another gun, still better than the buff it has now which is virtually obselete lol

 

hmm, whats the lore behind the Multi-tracker?

 

has it ever been used defensivly?

 

if squads of 10+ models are attack you, you gain -1 to hit?