Strategum questions

[Gentlemanloser]

Both from tonight's game. A Chaos and GK question each.

 

1. Chaos - Killshot

 

This strat is used on a predator if it is within 6" of two other predators. Strat says all the predators' attacks gain +1 to wound and +1 damage.

 

What does all the predators' attacks apply to?

 

Only the one, or all three predators in range?

 

Sorry not my Codex, don't have the exact wording for this.

 

2. GK - Only in Death

 

When a GK character is slain, it can immediately shoot as if own shooting phase or fight as if own fight phase, before being removed.

 

How does this work with characters who have degredation charts?

 

For a GMNDK for example, whose A stat changes based on current wounds, how many attacks would he have before being removed as a casualty?

[Eddie Orlock]

Both from tonight's game. A Chaos and GK question each.

 

1. Chaos - Killshot

 

... Only the one, or all three predators in range?

Given that the Heretic Stratagem is worded substantially similarly to the Loyalist version, I would expect them to work the same. All the selected tanks benefit.

2. GK - Only in Death

 

...For a GMNDK for example, whose A stat changes based on current wounds, how many attacks would he have before being removed as a casualty?

Three Attacks. Refer to '5. Inflict Damage' on pg 181 of the core rule book. Each point of unsaved damage converts into one lost wound simultaneously. Per 'Sequencing' sidebar on pg. 178, nothing is ever truly simultaneous, just in the order decided by the player whose turn it is. Though the choice between 'remove a wound' and 'remove a wound' is a bit trivial they appear to be discrete events.

 

Thus, the GMNDK will only ever have one wound left by the time he's eligible to trigger this stratagem and will use the impaired stats accordingly.

 

It may be possible to argue a different timing point on OIDDDE where the attack is being made while the model technically has zero wounds and thus falls off the degradation chart, but at that point we'd be following the asterisk under the attacks characteristic to a null reference and those are most often interpreted as zeros.

[Gentlemanloser]

How about if the ndk has 7w left and was in the second bracket and hit by a wound that did 7 damage?

 

Would only in death treat the ndk as being at 7 still and on the second stage of the chart?

 

Thanks for that link will check it out.

 

Edit. As for sequencing, I'm not sure i can trigger the use of Only in death, until the wounds have been lost.

 

Hmm.

 

I don't think GW thought about the use of the strat on characters with degredation charts.

 

There can't be many with more than 10W this would currently effect.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Eddie Orlock]

How about if the ndk has 7w left and was in the second bracket and hit by a wound that did 7 damage?

As I interpreted it above, the procedure for losing wounds is one at a time. Model removal is only triggered when you get to zero, OIDDDE is only possible upon model removal, thus it will always be on the bottom rung of the stat ladder.

[Gentlemanloser]

On further thought, i think you can only trigger oid when the model hits zero wounds.

 

You can't use the strat when the model has 1w remaining as ts not 'slain'.

 

I think this is one for the FAQ team. :)

[Eddie Orlock]

On further thought, i think you can only trigger oid[dde] when the model hits zero wounds.

Already had that thought covered off.

It may be possible to argue a different timing point on OIDDDE where the attack is being made while the model technically has zero wounds and thus falls off the degradation chart, but at that point we'd be following the asterisk under the attacks characteristic to a null reference and those are most often interpreted as zeros.

I picked a version that seemed consistent and wouldn't break the game.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm not sure that a single hit of multiple damage removes wounds singularily one at a time though.

 

I also think this is just a slight oversight. And something a proper week 1 faq could have covered. ;)

 

Until clarification, i think this will need to be house ruled within groups.

 

It seems, unfair, that this strat works with less potency on characters with degredation charts than others.

 

Who never lose thier full potency. Bur it might be designed that way on purpose.

[Ciler]

I agree with other opinions expressed above, there seems to be a need for an FaQ, but in the meantime rolling with the lowest stat line seems appropriate.

[Toasterfree]

wounds have to be removed one at a time for things like disgusting resilience to work. each time a wound is removed you roll for the FNP. if they weren't you would roll 1 time to either take or ignore all X number of wounds dealt.

[Ciler]

Sure. But that doesn't address the issue of the stat line to use for a model with technically 0 wounds left.

[Gentlemanloser]

Doesn't have to be one at a time.

 

You're hit for 7 damage from a single hit.

 

You roll 7 dice. Fail 5.

 

Take 5 damage in one go.

 

It doesn't have to be roll one fnp. Take 1w. Roll next. Take 1w.

 

It might, but i don't think the sequencing sidebox covers this. Fast dice rolling might, i suppose.

[Gentlemanloser]

Another only in death question.

 

If your slain in the enemy shooting phase, and elect to shoot with the stratagem, if you shoot a heavy weapon and moved in your movement phase the turn before do you suffer the -1 to hit penalty?

 

I'd assume yes. As the penalty is moving in your preceeding movement phase, regardless of when you actually shoot the heavy weapon.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Eddie Orlock]

I'd assume yes. As the penalty is moving in your preceeding movement phase, regardless of when you actually shoot the heavy weapon.

This is consistent with how I read it too. The language referrers possessively to the movement phase of the heavy weapon bearing unit.

 

Corner case would be if a power allowed you to hijack an opposing model during the shooting phase and shoot that model's guns. The possessed model would take penalties based on its movement during its normal controllers turn.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ah there is a psychic power that does just that!

 

Going to have a look.

 

 

Hmmm. That one is more difficult.

 

It's the Dominate power from Telethesia (Inquisition)

 

It targets an enemy character and;

 

"You can force the model to immediately shoot a single weapon <snip> as if it were part of your army"

 

That would seem to check *your* preceeding movement phase, to see if the dominated enemy had moved. Rather than its last.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Eddie Orlock]

That would seem to check *your* preceeding movement phase, to see if the dominated enemy had moved. Rather than its last.

I disagree. The text in the heavy weapon rule is fairly clear that it's referring to the model's movement phase. Since you gain control in your shooting phase the model never experiences a movement phase to re-set itself.

[Gentlemanloser]

But if it was 'as if part of your army', then the models preceeding movement phase would have been your movement phase.

 

Not the enemies.

[Eddie Orlock]

'Possession' of a phase is a property of the model, at least so far as shooting penalty avoidance is concerned. "If a model with a Heavy weapon moved in its preceeding movement phase, ..." p180. It does not say 'owners', 'yours', 'controllers', or any such other reference to the player. So, we must look at the phases experienced by the model. Since the power in question happens after that player's movement phase, the model never experiences the casting player's movement phase. The model's most recent movement phase would normally be its owning player's.

 

The 'as part of your army' clause only serves to allow firing at enemy models in the first place as normally they would be considered friendly to the possessed character and thus ineligible for it to target.

 

From a different perspective, we might consider the possessed character as a type of 'reinforcement' by the suspect implication that the enemy model is temporarily removed from play and replaced by an identical model under the caster's control for the duration of the power. Under this interpretation we invoke the 'Reinforcements' sidebar on page 177 to always consider such possessed characters aa having moved in their preceding movement phase.

[Gentlemanloser]

Next killshot question (i wish this had been worded better).

 

If there is a 4th (or more) pred within the 6" of the pred activating killshot, do they also get the bonuses?

 

Or is it three only?

[Lemondish]

Next killshot question (i wish this had been worded better).

 

If there is a 4th (or more) pred within the 6" of the pred activating killshot, do they also get the bonuses?

 

Or is it three only?

Looks like only the 3 mentioned in the rule.

[Gentlemanloser]

More questions. Raised somewhat by the DG FAQ about mixed CSM and DG armies.

 

If you have a mixed Space Marine and GK army (two seperate detachments) you have access to both Codexes Strategums.

 

Most specify use on friendly Chapter or GK units. But not all.

 

Is there anything stopping the mixed army from using the SM strategum 'Death to the Traitors' which can be used on an Adeptus Astartes unit, on a GK unit?

 

The Strategum is a 'Space Marine' strategum, but that's ok as we have a Space Marine detachment.

 

Edit. Also as per the DG FAQ you should be able to have a SM warlord and use the GK extra Relic Strategum to give GK characters Relics. Which usually wouldn't be allowed, as only the warlords faction has access to relics. Or vice versa.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Mr. Shine]

In agreement with your comments in the Grey Knights subforum that there's nothing stopping this, and the Death Guard FAQ fully supports this provided keyword and Stratagem wording conditions are met.

 

Looks like some new variety of allied super friends. It will be interesting to see how future Adeptus/Heretic Astartes codices manage this, whether it continues or whether Games Workshop develop the wording to be more specific.