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R&H army review and tactics


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#26
micahwc

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I'm going to try bringing Two valkyries with 2x5 marauders and 2 malefic lords each. Each marauder squad has two special weapons, plasma or melta. The marauder champion gets a plasma pistol. Everything grav chutes into position near a target. All the special weapons fire and the malefic lords cast warp flux and smite. Seems like it will work.

Edited by micahwc, 02 September 2017 - 08:15 PM.

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The Codex Astartes no doubt has guidance that covers that kind of situation - long, detailed advice that would essentially boil down to "shoot the choppy ones, chop the shooty ones".


#27
micahwc

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So command squads don't have the "1 per commander" restriction that other types of command squads have. What's this mean for us? Simply that we have access to cheap high bs heavy weapons at the cost of an elite slot. Compare a command squad to chaos havoks. 5 havoks with 4 lascannons is 165 points. 1 command squad with lascannon is 44 points. So for 176 points, only 11 more than a havok squad, you get the same number of bs3+ lascannons, but you have 12 wounds instead of 5. Problem is this is 4 elite slots. So if you are playing with a limited number of detachments this gets hard to spam.

A vanguard detachment with six squads like this and a malefic lord is under 300 points.

The Codex Astartes no doubt has guidance that covers that kind of situation - long, detailed advice that would essentially boil down to "shoot the choppy ones, chop the shooty ones".


#28
micahwc

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One of our advantages that Renegades have over most other armies (Guard excluded) is that we have easy ways to spam command points. For 475 points you can fit a Malefic Lord, a Renegade Commander, and three squads of 10 Renegade Militia in Chimeras with dual heavy bolters, and a heavy stubber each. It's 475 points for 27 BS4+ shots per turn sitting on a back field objective, and it gives you +3 command points while doing it. It's also useful for getting line breaker, or rushing far objectives once mostly cleared of enemies. The Renegade Militia are squishy and not great so they should stay in the chimera as much as possible, unless you need them for Objective Secured at the end of the game.

 

Chimeras are relatively durable, and this battalion building block leaves plenty of points left to focus on heavy support, elites, and/or fast attacks with their specialized detachments.


The Codex Astartes no doubt has guidance that covers that kind of situation - long, detailed advice that would essentially boil down to "shoot the choppy ones, chop the shooty ones".


#29
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I want your opinion guys and girls, would it be a bad idea to bring two Baneblades to a 2000 points game?  Do you think its too much for an opponent or crippling myself too much?  I was going to get the sponson free version for just unded five hundred points so its less than half my points.



#30
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Uh... it would be lulzy, I am sure, but I would tell my buddy 'heads up, I am bringing lots of superheavy armor lol' or something to that effect.

Depending on the mission, you might find it hard to win with two baneblades, but you might just resign yourself to that and play them anyway, just for kicks. If I were you, I'd make it clear to my opponent that he/she should bring a fair amount of anti-armor, and I would request we play a mission that allows for the baneblades to not be a giant handicap or easy win. Then both parties can have fun without it being a braindead roflstomp. 


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Corruption is our armor. Infection is our weapon. Immortality is our reward.
 

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#31
Akrim

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Agree with Azekai. If its a friendly game i would check with my opponent first. Its legal yes, but fun for all involved maybe not so much.
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#32
micahwc

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I've been thinking a lot about the units we have available and which ones seem to be the better choices for us.

 

HQ: Really only 1 choice for the most part.

  • Renegade Commander: Take 1 for leadership shenanigans and access to 5+ overwatch, otherwise leave these for Malefic Lords
  • Malefic Lords: Great choice, always worth taking. Smite is wonderful and really useful for putting wounds on tough targets. If you bring enough Malefic Lords your opponent wont be able to deny all of them. In my experience they were even useful against Grey Knights because of the amount of chances I had to deny their psyker shenanigans.

Elite: Too many good choices, some more important than others. It feels like everything unique to R&H got put here

  • Renegade Command Squad: They have a potent leadership shenanigan to give most of your army potentially leadership 10, which is nice. It still depends on luck a bit. Also the cheapest way to get BS 3+ heavy weapons in the army. Better than Renegade Disciple Squads since they are mostly identical, but you can spam Command Squads in smaller MSUs than Disciple Squads. There is no limit of having only 1 command squad per commander at this time, subject to change.
  • Renegade Disciple Squad: Not really worth taking over a command squad until such a time as they errata it so you only get 1 command squad per commander. Same stats, similar but slightly less equipment choices, and a larger minimum squad size than a command squad.
  • Renegade Enforcer: The commissar equivalent. Nice thing is the errata makes him an independent character. Potentially not really needed if you use the command squad leadership exploit. Useful for babysitting large squads of cultists or mutant rabble.
  • Renegade Marauder Squad: These guys are great. Generally immune to leadership problems, until they aren't and all die. Literally the only thing with "chaos" keyword that can bring sniper rifles. 2 special weapons in a minimum unit size of 5 is great, with BS and WS identical to a space marine but more attacks. Think about that for a second. These guys are mercenaries who are just as good at fighting as space marines, but attack twice as much up close, for half the cost at only 6 points each. I don't see the point in bringing a brute with them unless you want to tank wounds on one.
  • Ogryns: I don't see the point of the beast handler. He's not a character so he can and will get picked out if your opponent wants to do so. Brutes and Plague Ogryns both seem like good choices if you want Ogryns.

 

Troops: I think there is really only one "good" choice

  1. Cultists: Don't ever bring these. You can bring cultists from the Chaos Codex for less points.
  2. Mutant Rabble: I feel like a lot rides on your curse of mutation roll for these guys. I'm not a huge fan. They can't take Vox so bring an enforcer with them and bring a large unit if you are going to bring them at all.
  3. Renegade Militia: I think these are the "best" choice. They can bring a Vox Caster to participate in leadership shenanigans, and they can bring 4 special weapons in a squad of 20, which should be flamers because of their poor BS. Use these to bubble wrap your heavy support choices.

Fast Attack: Literally only 1 choice in the codex unless you branch out to other Chaos forces. Spawn are actually halfway decent in combat and you can get your Fast Attack requirement in a brigade detachment for 99 points.

 

Heavy Support: Some excellent choices, a lot of good choices, and a couple poor choices. I'm putting these in a different format:

 

Wyvern/Heavy Quad Launcher: Both are good choices. Wyverns are a bit more effective due to re-rolls, but are also more points. They are also a bit more resilient and are able to move if they need to.

 

Basilisk/Earthshaker Carriage/Earthshaker Battery: All great choices for anti-heavy infantry and decent at anti-armor. Earthshaker battery is the cheapest of the three, Basilisk can move.

 

Heavy Weapon Squad: Cheap and poor BS, but surprisingly effective in the spreadsheet due to their low cost. Probably best to bring a heavy bolter.

 

 

 

 

Renegades and Heretics have an interesting (some would say disadvantaged) relationship to Astra Militarum. There has been a lot of internet ink on what the R&H are bad at, but I'd like to focus on the good.

 

  1. Unparalleled access to psychic shenanigans. We have by far the least expensive psykers available to any army. A supreme command detachment with 6 Malefic Lords will give Grey Knights (and presumably Thousand Sons) armies a good run. When you can shut down the psychic phase of a 1500 point Grey Knight army with 180 points of models, you know you will do very well against most armies that have less psychic defense. Against Vehicles, Warp Flux and Smite from 6 Malefic Lords will do 1D6 + 5d3 mortal wounds. That's 13.5 wounds with average rolls, and they also work well on hoards because they are mortal wounds so they carry over.
  2. Best overwatch in the game: What? Yep. Give the Renegade Commander the covenant of Tzeentch and overwatch your army on 5's. Your militia squad with 4 flamers and 16 autoguns now overwatches on 5s.
  3. Potentially good leadership: "No way!". Yes. Give the Renegade Commander the warlord trait that gives him a leadership boosting aura. Sit him next to a command squad with Command Vox Net. Command squad takes the best of 2D6 and adds 4 for their leadership, and then broadcasts that leadership to every unit with a vox caster within 120". An "average" roll will get you a leadership of 7-8 for your militia. Spend a command point on that leadership roll if you need to. A command squad with Command Vox costs 34 points, so bring two if you really want to ensure good leadership.
  4. A ridiculous amount of artillery/heavy weapons. Three Earth Shaker Batteries is 240 points and can take up 1 HS slot. You could bring 9 artillery pieces in a 1000 point game if you wanted to, and you could easily bring all the artillery in a 2000 point game.

Edited by micahwc, 26 September 2017 - 02:22 PM.

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The Codex Astartes no doubt has guidance that covers that kind of situation - long, detailed advice that would essentially boil down to "shoot the choppy ones, chop the shooty ones".


#33
micahwc

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My army composition of choice to fill out a brigade would look like this:

 

HQ: 1 Renegade Commander (Warlord), Covenant of Tzeentch, 2x Malefic Lords

FA: 3 Chaos Spawn

Elite: 2x Command Squads with command vox net, maybe a missile launcher if you have the points. 1 to 4 Renegade Marauder Squads.

Troops: 6x Renegade Militia Squads with Vox and Flamers.

HS: 3x3 artillery, probably 3 Earthshakers and 6 Heavy Quad Launchers,

 

This is about 1530 points with 1 marauder squad.

 

My second detachment would be a Supreme Command Detachment with Malefic Lords.


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The Codex Astartes no doubt has guidance that covers that kind of situation - long, detailed advice that would essentially boil down to "shoot the choppy ones, chop the shooty ones".


#34
micahwc

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Upon reflection, I think the brigade is a red herring, chasing a brigade throws a lot of points into choices that are not optimal. Whereas a battalion combined with spearhead, vanguard, and supreme command detachments gives us more of our best choices.

 

I'd look at a battalion with a renegade commander, command squad, and three units of militia for 3 command points. A supreme command detachment of Malefic Lords for +1 command point. A vanguard detachment of Renegade Marauders for all your special weapon / sniper needs for another +1 command point. And then put all your artillery in a spearhead detachment for another +1 command point. This would give you 9 command points instead of 12, but lets you be a bit more focused in your list construction. If you are playing with three detachments max you could drop the supreme command detachment and just fill up the HQ slots of the other detachments with Malefic Lords for 8 command points.

 

So detachment 1 would be Renegade commander, 2x Malefic Lords, 1-2 command squads, 3x militia squads, plus whatever else you needed to fit in the slots; detachment 2 would be a vanguard with marauders/ogryns/enforcers, and detachment 3 could be a spearhead with your big guns.


The Codex Astartes no doubt has guidance that covers that kind of situation - long, detailed advice that would essentially boil down to "shoot the choppy ones, chop the shooty ones".


#35
Plaguecaster

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Do you reckon this will affect renegade tanks????? If it is a unit special rule that all Russes have then it should do since Renegades just use the Guard dataslate could make tank spam in a renegade list more viable
Nurgle Abominarions: A Host of Decay Revived for 8th​.
UPDATED 29/07/17

#36
micahwc

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Technically I don't think so until an Errata is issued. The Renegade and Heretic Army List states "Leman Russ Battle Tanks Warhammer 40,000 - Index Imperium 2" and "Leman Russ Demolishers Warhammer 40,000 - Index Imperium 2".

 

Our list specifies that we use the data slate in Index Imperium 2, not the guard codex. Until Forgeworld issues an errata I think this is the correct interpretation. 


The Codex Astartes no doubt has guidance that covers that kind of situation - long, detailed advice that would essentially boil down to "shoot the choppy ones, chop the shooty ones".


#37
Plaguecaster

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GW rules state you will always use the most up to date dataslate so regardless of whether FW states it's from the index once the new Guard codex dataslates come out the original dataslates from the index are completly invalidated by the new ones as such if russes have grinding advance as a unit rule then Renegades one will have it as well.


"Yes, many units’ rules in their codexes will alter from those in the indexes. Sometimes this is to better represent the miniatures and the background, sometimes to balance the game, and sometimes to better fit with the army’s new special rules in the codex itself. In all cases, these will then supersede the rules for that datasheet in the index book"

Edited by Plaguecaster, 26 September 2017 - 09:02 PM.

Nurgle Abominarions: A Host of Decay Revived for 8th​.
UPDATED 29/07/17

#38
micahwc

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Anything that we have access to and is improved in the Guard codex will be nice to have. Another nice thing is that we don't technically have conscripts, so when conscripts are nerfed we will still have our cheap 4 point models.


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The Codex Astartes no doubt has guidance that covers that kind of situation - long, detailed advice that would essentially boil down to "shoot the choppy ones, chop the shooty ones".


#39
Tamika

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I would definitely max out mortars in my militia squads as well as fill any gaps in heavy support with them. They are so good right now for the points and the range and indirect fire really helps.

Do the command squads only have four models? Would make sense if it was necessary to have a commander per command squad.

#40
micahwc

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Command squads are 4 to 14 models after the latest errata, and do not have the 1 per commander limit that Astra Militarum and Scion command squads now have. It will likely be changed in a future errata, but for now they are cheaper MSU than Renegade Disciples, for the same model cost and same weapon options.

 

Mortars may be a good idea for the militia squad. I initially was against it as I want to keep the squads cheap, but I generally don't have points problems with R&H, and mortars are cheap. They also allow your militia to actually do something while they are babysitting your artillery.


The Codex Astartes no doubt has guidance that covers that kind of situation - long, detailed advice that would essentially boil down to "shoot the choppy ones, chop the shooty ones".


#41
micahwc

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Building Blocks:

 

I watched a Youtube video about making a competitive list for 8th edition and the Youtuber had this idea of making "building blocks" by combining units that perform particularly well together or perform a certain function well together. The idea was that you could test these before a competitive match and then combine building blocks to form a competitive list. Seems like a neat idea, especially with the detachment system in 8th edition. I have found a couple that seem apparent to me, which I will list, and I would encourage anyone else to feel free to do the same.

 

Supreme Command Detachment

3-6 Malefic Lords, 90-180 points. I find a lot of times putting 5 in my lists for 150 points. It just seems like a good number. Cheap smite. May be worth the points to add a chimera so they can all be placed in one drop instead of 6. Chimera with heavy flamer and heavy bolter with 5 Malefic Lords is 250 points, which is still a nice OCD friendly number.

 

Spearhead detachment

2 Malefic Lords, 3 Earthshaker Batteries. It's 300 points even. Gives you some good psychic power and earthshakers are always good to have. 300 points which is again a nice number. I can plug this in with my chaos marine lists pretty easily to add cheap smite and indirect fire, neither of which chaos marines have access to on their own.

 

Battalion Detachment

Renegade Commander with bolt pistol, 4 man command squad with Command Vox Network and mortar, 3x20 militia squad each with 4 flamers and vox, Malefic Lord. 450 points and meets the requirements for a battalion. The bolt pistol and mortar are to make it an even 450 points. Sorry. You can remove them if you want. 450 points for a lot of bodies and 3 command points. Fits in with Chaos Marine lists as you have a lot of points left over for the good toys, but also get a decent hoard.

 

Please feel free to add your own.


The Codex Astartes no doubt has guidance that covers that kind of situation - long, detailed advice that would essentially boil down to "shoot the choppy ones, chop the shooty ones".


#42
Nemerax

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I agree on wound walls. For fun I tried to fit in as many models I could in a 1000 points list. Turned out I managed 180 for a combination that I liked, supported by Malefic Lords. While this was intended to be a fun list it turned out to be devastating. Even against a guy who clearly used every hole to create a Space Wolves list consisting solely Wolf Guard armed with Claw Pairs and Storm Bolters (Has been changed in Errata now) in Rhinos with two Storm Bolters each. They ended up running away from my troops, while shooting them. Did not help them.

 

In short, if I really want to win I just take Malefic Lords, CSM Cultists and Militia. Everything backed up by Basilisks, because I do not own any Earthshaker Batteries.



#43
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Has anyone tried renegade knights with double thermal cannons? They just got FAQ'd from d3 to d6 shots per gun.


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#44
Stross

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Has anyone tried renegade knights with double thermal cannons? They just got FAQ'd from d3 to d6 shots per gun.

This is all depends like everything in Renegade Knight. And he is not that good with R&H on their own since enemy will focus his fire on him and R&H can't kill evemy fast enough or even quickly tie down the enemy with hand to hand. 

These cannon are pretty good if enemy have a lot of heavy support or big monsters. With hordes it is better Avenging gatling cannons in both hands. 

But if your Knight will lose more wounds, his ballistic became terrible and again we have more chances with AVG. 

So it is depends on situation. 


Edited by Stross, 05 October 2017 - 04:53 AM.


#45
Stross

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Food for thought. 

If you choose covenant, you get keyword of the god. And I discussed it with other people, they told this would work like with Daemon Engines. 

R&H with keyword Nurgle, Khorne, Slaanesh and Tzeench, if you take with you patrol of CSM, can use stratagems of CSM, that demand keyword of god. It can be really handy sometimes. 



#46
Tamika

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Armoured Sentinels now T6 if we are using the updated rules from Astra Militarum Codex... decent buff, sit at back with a lascannon or screen with heavy flamer?




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