themortalgod Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 (edited) So I've been going back and fourth on the two for a while, they offer very similar firepower and fill a similar role in the battle but are also different enough to make the choice compelling. I'm wondering how everyone else feels? As of now this is how I see it: Flamers Cheaper Faster Fly Keyword Pistol weapons (shoot in close combat) No unit champion tax Can benefit from Changeling aura Rubrics More resilient (though, there are few situations where the +1W beats the better save) Can ride in a transport Slightly more powerful weapon (better ap) Better in close combat phase (though not being able to shoot in combat offsets this quite a bit) Can advance and still shoot Can benefit from legion traits/strategems Smite Better LD What does everyone else feel? In a generic all comers list, which do you find fits the role of short range flame troops more effectively? Edited August 29, 2017 by themortalgod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven1 Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 Although seemingly similarly equipped they fill different roles on the tabletop. One is elite one is troop. It's apples and oranges do you need fast moving running around and flaming things or do you want to clear and hold objectives. Plaguecaster and Commissar K. 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryptix Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 Unless I missed an FAQ there is no more Champion tax for TS - just got to pay for that force weapon, which is worth the points most of the time. The Traitor 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Traitor Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 Yes, you don't have to pay for the aspiring sorc. anymore, just force weapons and the fact that he can't get a warplamer. I haven't played Tzeentch flamers yet in 8th ed. but I've been using a lot three units of five rubricae with warpflamers recently as part of a list that I plan on bringing to a tournament and they're awesome. They're a bit too expensive for my taste, but they just murder things and can resist a lot of firepower. I think that they might get the edge over flamers because they're more resilient, can run and shoot and can get into transports, which offsets both their mobility and CC issues, as they can go faster and can share the trasport with another unit that will assault any survivors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aasfresser Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 Yes, you don't have to pay for the aspiring sorc. anymore, just force weapons and the fact that he can't get a warplamer. He still can get a Warpflamepistol, though. Could he use both, his forceweapon and the flamer at the same time in CC? I'm still waiting for my first 8th edition game and don't habe the rules around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 (edited) Yes, you don't have to pay for the aspiring sorc. anymore, just force weapons and the fact that he can't get a warplamer. He still can get a Warpflamepistol, though. Could he use both, his forceweapon and the flamer at the same time in CC? I'm still waiting for my first 8th edition game and don't habe the rules around. You don't actually use the flamer in melee. You are just allowed to shoot it at the unit you are in melee with, switching the restriction of not being able to shoot when being within 1" of an enemy with the restriction having to target the closest unit with it. So since nothing prevents you from using a melee weapon when you shot with a pistol, you can do both. Shoot in your shooting phase and chop in your fight phase. Edit: note that I'm talking about the pistol obviously. You can't shoot regular flamer while being in melee unfortunately. Edited August 30, 2017 by sfPanzer Aasfresser 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Traitor Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't bother with the warpflamer pistol. Str 3 and 6"? If you ever manage to shoot it it will probably do nothing. I prefer the Inferno Bolt Pistol on the sorc, at least it's cheaper... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khar'vros the Crazed Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 Really depends, are you playing 1k sons or tzeetch daemons? The warpflame pistol has a place, it allows extra killing in the shooting phase while in combat, and more shots then a bolt pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeinox Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 All of these ideas will change when Rubrics are Troops in a Thousand Sons Codex army and Flamers are not. Then, if you want to use those beautiful stratagems etc when the Codex comes out, you will be taking them anyway.. General Strike and Prot 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themortalgod Posted August 31, 2017 Author Share Posted August 31, 2017 Unless I missed an FAQ there is no more Champion tax for TS - just got to pay for that force weapon, which is worth the points most of the time. Personally, I don't feel the cost of a force weapon is worth it, I've never had my sorcerer do anything constructive really. He just feels like a 30+ pts model (depending on how you arm him) that is forced on each Rubric squad. The odd MW, I guess from Smite but the cost of the force stave just doesn't feel worth it given that he isn't anything even remotely special in close combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 An inferno pistol shot and 2 swings in melee with D3 damage is actually average/good for a melee Chaos model. An axe or sword is probably better than the stave for the better AP modifier (sword is also cheapest). Yeah, he costs 11-15 points more than a Rubricae, but that does give you an option to deny a psychic power, he adds +1 Ld, and has his ghetto smite attack. It's worth the cost, IMO, although I would have liked the option to take a regular boltgun on him. Maybe the TS codex will give him some more flexibility in powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banis Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 Well they are different armies and differet force slot. And ofcourse future strategems might offset it. But.. Flamers seems like the superior choice.. Flamers are : 1.Faster even when marines roll 6 for advance they are still slower.. 2.Cheaper 3. Better i CC due to pistols Also flamers can leave CC and shoot due to fly keyword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 Aha, but can Flamers be infiltrated with Forward Operatives? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banis Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 Aha, but can Flamers be infiltrated with Forward Operatives? No but neither can thousand sons rubrics :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 Aha, but can Flamers be infiltrated with Forward Operatives? No but neither can thousand sons rubrics They can when taken in an Alpha Legion detachment tho. ;) That being said ... how durable are Flamer? I've never really looked at most Tzeentch Daemons, but the Flamer being pistols and the FLY keyword aren't worth much if they can't survive melee in the first place. ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banis Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 Aha, but can Flamers be infiltrated with Forward Operatives? No but neither can thousand sons rubrics They can when taken in an Alpha Legion detachment tho. That being said ... how durable are Flamer? I've never really looked at most Tzeentch Daemons, but the Flamer being pistols and the FLY keyword aren't worth much if they can't survive melee in the first place. ^^ That is why i wrote Thousand sons rubric...and not Alpha legion rubric :). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 Aha, but can Flamers be infiltrated with Forward Operatives? No but neither can thousand sons rubrics They can when taken in an Alpha Legion detachment tho. That being said ... how durable are Flamer? I've never really looked at most Tzeentch Daemons, but the Flamer being pistols and the FLY keyword aren't worth much if they can't survive melee in the first place. ^^ That is why i wrote Thousand sons rubric...and not Alpha legion rubric . Ah right, I missed the Thousand sons part. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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