Astarte and primaris

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Heya all,

 

Been fretting abit lately with the launch of 8th and the primaris. Although i am a fan I am worried about "standard" marines being phased out. Do you think the fluff will make for allowances or will the marketing world see what made me love the game eradicate the "small" marines.

 

I hope this is the start of a unity. Otherwise im of to age of sigmar.

[Silas7]

Nobody but GW knows for sure but from what I gather the Dark Imperium novel seems to suggest that in-universe the normal method for making Astartes has been superseded by the Primaris method.

[Damo1701]

Opinion is very much split on this issue.

 

Many hopefuls believe that the Primaris are yet another expansion of the large Marine line-up, while others are certain we are hearing the death-knell of standard Adeptus Astartes.

 

At the moment, nothing is clear. The Primaris range feels like an attempt to bring Horus Heresy force organisation to the current 40k timeline, through squad specialisation, and attempt to prompt Marine players to buy an entire new army or expand their existing armies.

 

The Primaris forces are also lacking in areas where standard marines can fill in. Until a new Space Marine codex is released, we won't see any new Primaris units, unless they are included in the upcoming Chapter Approved book.

 

End of the day, we don't really know enough about Primaris to have an accurate way to estimate what's coming.

 

One thing is clear though, it appears the Marine line is coming close to collapsing under it's own weight, and something is going to give somewhere.

[Frater Cornelius]

Got the same issue. Hence why I only use Scouts (neophyte Primaris) and old vehicles like Predators in my army.

[Blindhamster]

The Primaris forces are also lacking in areas where standard marines can fill in. Until a new Space Marine codex is released, we won't see any new Primaris units, unless they are included in the upcoming Chapter Approved book.

 

 

 

because rules are now included in the boxes, and they have a points pdf anyway, I would not be surprised if we do see new primaris units over the next 12-24 months.

 

 

 

 

on the main topic:

 

The novel "Dark Imperium" suggests that in setting, the days of the standard adeptus astartes are numbered. However from a realistic point of view, I'd not expect to see the current lineup of marines go for a few years at least, and in setting it could very easily swing and we see another divide at some point depends on what the people paying money seem to want from GWs perspective. It would be very interesting to see how well the Primaris range has sold so far. I know I personally have bought one or two of everything thats been released for them.

[Lemondish]

The Primaris forces are also lacking in areas where standard marines can fill in. Until a new Space Marine codex is released, we won't see any new Primaris units, unless they are included in the upcoming Chapter Approved book.

 

End of the day, we don't really know enough about Primaris to have an accurate way to estimate what's coming.

That seems wrong, especially since rules are now coming inside the box. I honestly don't think there's anything stopping the introduction of new units or models for any faction at any time, regardless when the codex was released.

 

Their focus on 8th being a living ruleset opens up that option and I can't imagine they'd ever return to the old way.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Lemondish

[Damo1701]

 

The Primaris forces are also lacking in areas where standard marines can fill in. Until a new Space Marine codex is released, we won't see any new Primaris units, unless they are included in the upcoming Chapter Approved book.

 

End of the day, we don't really know enough about Primaris to have an accurate way to estimate what's coming.

That seems wrong, especially since rules are now coming inside the box. I honestly don't think there's anything stopping the introduction of new units or models for any faction at any time, regardless when the codex was released.

 

Their focus on 8th being a living ruleset opens up that option and I can't imagine they'd ever return to the old way.

Reprints of books like a Codex will come, possibly on an annual basis. Otherwise, there is going to be an outcry from players about carrying amount once again.

 

Already we are looking a Rulebook, Codex, Index, and Chapter Approved.

 

Plus FAQ/Errata/Designer Notes sheets that could have been printed off.

 

If you want to add either assembly books and points PDFs, we are looking at a system that is far more bloated and messy.

 

Plus, IIRC, it's just the power levels and unit options that are included, not points etc.

[Lemondish]

 

 

The Primaris forces are also lacking in areas where standard marines can fill in. Until a new Space Marine codex is released, we won't see any new Primaris units, unless they are included in the upcoming Chapter Approved book.

 

End of the day, we don't really know enough about Primaris to have an accurate way to estimate what's coming.

That seems wrong, especially since rules are now coming inside the box. I honestly don't think there's anything stopping the introduction of new units or models for any faction at any time, regardless when the codex was released.

 

Their focus on 8th being a living ruleset opens up that option and I can't imagine they'd ever return to the old way.

Reprints of books like a Codex will come, possibly on an annual basis. Otherwise, there is going to be an outcry from players about carrying amount once again.

 

Already we are looking a Rulebook, Codex, Index, and Chapter Approved.

 

Plus FAQ/Errata/Designer Notes sheets that could have been printed off.

 

If you want to add either assembly books and points PDFs, we are looking at a system that is far more bloated and messy.

 

Plus, IIRC, it's just the power levels and unit options that are included, not points etc.

You're right, which means the sooner they go to a digital format for data sheets and list building, the better.

 

But you're wrong about the points values - the rules that come in the box may not include them, but they have been released in PDF format alongside new units.

 

The future is in how compact and complete data sheets are, especially with the full 8 pages of rules being free.

[Roderikum]

I don´t really like Primaris (due to having thousands of points in Astartes), so I like to think that all my armies are on the wrong side of the Scar... Perhaps I´m missing the chance of playing with better marines... Call me romantic. Besides, Primaris don´t do anything that regular Astartes can´t.

My 2 cents.

[Blindhamster]

yeah, I've got... um probably 12k or so of regularlar blood angels astartes.

Totally agree that game wise the Primaris don't do anything regular marines couldn't already do, although I do feel that primaris units with some equivalency often end up coming out on top if used for the role they're designed for.

I doub't we'll see a phase out of regular marines any time soon, it'd be very silly on GWs part, that being said, I bet sales for regular astartes have dropped off since 8th ed.

[Race Bannon]

Well sure, as consumers we want the shiney new thing. It's branded that way: book covers, small, yet persistent, art in various places on the Internet, and of course White Dwarf. As consumers we speak with our wallets, so if you don't like Primaris, don't buy them. If enough people do the same, then that will have an affect at GW.

 

Regardless, there is a considerable investment, historically and presently, for GW *not* to do anything with their non-Primaris models. Enjoy the old stuff, it's still good!

[Ogun]

Heya all,

 

Been fretting abit lately with the launch of 8th and the primaris. Although i am a fan I am worried about "standard" marines being phased out. Do you think the fluff will make for allowances or will the marketing world see what made me love the game eradicate the "small" marines.

 

I hope this is the start of a unity. Otherwise im of to age of sigmar.

 

I completely understand your concerns, but while my gut is worried, my head tells me that this is unlikely.

 

First up, the genius behind the idea of the Primaris was that they are marines that will sell other marines. They are beautiful models, people will buy them on that basis alone. You can add them to an existing army or you can even make a dedicated army of them. There is no downside for GW, unless the line crashes and burns, which is probably unlikely. Because they are so specialised, however, players are likely to buy other marine models to plug capability gaps in their army. In a sense they are a gift which keeps on giving for GW.

It takes a lot of money and effort to design kits. The standard marine line is a well established seller. All the design and mold costs have been covered, and they have just found a new way to encourage people to buy more. People also have massive collections, and for community purposes GW needs to maintain their interest in playing. Backgroundwise, the 40k universe sells well. In the past decade the historical side of 40k has also suddenly exploded into life. GW now even supports HH gamers and has released Mk III and IV power armour squads in just the past 2 years. Phasing out normal marines would simply make no financial sense. Gamers would suddenly find themselves unable to create armies that could fight pre-Indomitus Crusade era battles, or actually even Indomitus crusade, given that normal marines are around in that. That is 10,000 years of background potential undermined. GW knows the 40k universe is a very big part of its brand. Some gamers won't care, an awful lot will. 

 

GW will also have to fork out a lot of money to build up the Primaris line. Iconic kits like the Land Raider and Predator/Rhino will need to be scaled up. The same would be true of FW kits. Some of the interesting elements of the Primaris will be lost in the process. They are futuristic looking counterparts to the more Grim Dark aesthetic of the normal marines. One complements the other. 

 

I think we need to ask ourselves about which bit of the Primaris is actually the big draw? While I know there is interest in true scale, I don't think the majority or gamers are buying the Primaris just because they are bigger models, rather it is because that they are beautiful models. The new Mk X and better poses are the key to their success, in my opinion.

 

If I had a bet I would put my money on the reverse happening. GW could decide to release Mk X equipped normal marines. Downscaling Primaris aesthetic makes more financial sense than having to upscale everything else. Mk VII/VIII kits become a supported option like Mk III and IV. 

Edited September 2, 2017 by Ogun

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

The phasing out has already begun. Old Marines aren't going anywhere, but they're definitely going to be pretty much frozen in time for the most part, while GW continues to expand their new Primaris line. If you can live with the current range and the occasional rare GW release or FW cross-compatibility, and want to have a force of veterans or older era soldiers, then Space Marines aren't going anywhere, they're merely getting new Primaris reinforcements.

 

If you wanted even more GW support and releases for the old Marines in the future, that's probably not going to happen and if you had plans to swap over to a currently supported miniature range, it's probably reasonable to switch over even right now if that's what you want.

 

My only hope is that they keep them as they are now, instead of what they did to the old WHFB armies in AoS: very recently, they changed it so that you could no longer run those models as a cohesive force. So it would be sort of like removing Chapter Tactics from old Space Marines.

[duz_]

I think Damo and Ogun both make very good points and summarize my thoughts quite well.

 

Personally I dont see GW abandoning the line completely especially not in the new few years. Ill probably by a few more regular kits to finish off my RG and a few Primaris ones too for good measure.

[Blindhamster]

Agreed, I think our regular sized Astartes Brethren will be with us for quite some time yet. I don't even completely disregard the idea we may see a small release or two for them in the future honestly. GW aren't stupid, they'll KNOW that many people prefer Adeptus Astartes.

[Ciler]

Besides, once "old" marines are phased out, as far as I am concerned they become primaris, from a modelling perspective anyway.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

All very good points raised. It is good to see level headed logic being applied. My main "concern" is that old marines "could" be phased out but "should" they be. I love having variety.

 

And to have regular and enhanced marines both in production is much more appealing. To me at least.

[Frater Cornelius]

See it that way: the current plastics are there and they will stay.

[Stoic Raptor]

 Primaris don´t do anything that regular Astartes can´t.

 

...except for surviving failing their first armor save, resisting a S4 weapon 67% of the time, firing AP -1 bolt weapons... you know, minor details. :D

[Lustrati]

The way the multi-kits have been set up for the primaris, with the shin greaves and chest plate being separate I can see GW releasing "upgrade kits turning mk 10 armor into the older variants over time. TBH it will not happen any time soon but I honestly think they will slowly phase out the old line, but it won't be today or tomorrow.

After all if Primaris sell well, and there is no reason they wont, they will just start adding new kits. The only real problems will be the vehicles as they are too small (even the land raider apparently which is hilarious as it can transport termies but can not fit a single Primaris inside).

[Gerhard]

Personally I think that during the first few years of 8th edition, there will not be a phase-out and they will co-exists. This is also related to how they are creating those Primaris squads: limited wargear options and one-trick-pony-kitting for the whole squad. The regular Space Marines have way more customization options. If (and until...) Primaris get more (... a lot more) options, I don't see any replacement yet. 

 

Primaris appear to be filling specific niches and roles with their entire squads. I like that actually, as it can compliment quite well in an army and they are truly able to co-exist for now. An example is a combination of melee units with special weapons to which the Primaris have no access and as such one takes regular Vanguard or Company Veteran squads, and heavy-support where the Hell-blasters really shine. The combination really appeals to me. 

 

At the rate at which GW is releasing new stuff, I think we'll see a couple more years of co-existence. However the moment Primaris start getting special wargear options and access to full ranges of transports on land and air, I think that's when the scale will start tipping in favor of the Primaris. 

[D3L]

at 9th release (Q1 Q2 2019), there wont be any more astartes, as the Primaris would have replaced them all, make of that as you will 

[Frater Cornelius]

at 9th release (Q1 Q2 2019), there wont be any more astartes, as the Primaris would have replaced them all, make of that as you will 

 

That is your negativity speaking. Plastics will be around for a long time, if just to cover the cost of molds.

[D3L]

 

at 9th release (Q1 Q2 2019), there wont be any more astartes, as the Primaris would have replaced them all, make of that as you will 

 

That is your negativity speaking. Plastics will be around for a long time, if just to cover the cost of molds.

 

not at all sport

 

I'm incredibly positive about this, and the following prospects, it makes my side projects incredibly lucrative, many people would prefer to pay for oldhammer than continue down this palaver

Edited September 1, 2017 by D3L

[RandomMarine]

My IH primaries in universe are normal marines that have been using hel tech and bionic upgrades to make them more resilient.

 

But going forward I think we will get the odd normal sm unit as part of campaign splash releases but generally it will be all primaries toys from now on