Astarte and primaris

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I really hope not.

 

Don't get me wrong, the modeling is amazing, the units look very well though out from an aesthetical standpoint and it's still only early days.

 

I just really hope "Regular" marines play a role, even if it's just an ornamental one within forces. A sort of "look to the past, we endured long before the new breed of marines" kind of statement. I know I'm being unrealistically optimistic but I hope they find ways to make regular marines more interesting. I wish that Primaris Marines were just a different type of astartee, Same strength, same speed etc, just able to be perm-adapted to a singular war purpose.

 

Apologies, I know I am writing drivel, I am just very overtired. Expect a more rational, well written response summarizing my thoughts in the next few days.

[D3L]

The separation is doing wonders to China's business model ans oldhammer in general. Soon GW will recant have no fear

[Ogun]

I really hope not.

 

Don't get me wrong, the modeling is amazing, the units look very well though out from an aesthetical standpoint and it's still only early days.

 

I just really hope "Regular" marines play a role, even if it's just an ornamental one within forces. A sort of "look to the past, we endured long before the new breed of marines" kind of statement. I know I'm being unrealistically optimistic but I hope they find ways to make regular marines more interesting. I wish that Primaris Marines were just a different type of astartee, Same strength, same speed etc, just able to be perm-adapted to a singular war purpose.

 

Apologies, I know I am writing drivel, I am just very overtired. Expect a more rational, well written response summarizing my thoughts in the next few days.

 

The big sign of hope here is that GW did not go ahead and make Primaris replicate normal marine squads from the off. They could have gone that route, but didn't. My suspicion is that future Primaris releases will keep up that pattern. They will essentially become a separate but related faction. 

 

I don't think the normal marine line is liable to expand much further, true. My guess is that we have a year or two of the occasional Primaris release. Then we may see efforts to boost interest in regular marines again, probably via kit updates, including better poses in line with the Primaris etc... possibly even some Mk X if they thing the aesthetic is a major draw. That would probably be the moment we also see the rather elderly CSM line revamped. 

[Kinstryfe]

My prediction: as long as molds hold out, both types will coexist. As long as Marine sales remain a big chunk of GW's profits, and projected sales > cost of development and new molds, they will coexist. I predict that within 2 years or so, we'll have additional primaris releases to flesh them out as a viable army of their own, and we'll end up with primaris being effectively a faction that can ally or make up a whole army. I also predict that they'll keep Legion-style organisation to justify having 2 armies of similar content. And I also predict that Classic™ Astartes will get very few new releases, because the range is pretty much complete. I however don't think that we'll see the old range being squatted unless sales plummet hugely with primaris sales growing to compensate. Basically, I don't think GW wants to sell you just primaris models. They want to sell you ALL the Space Marine models.

[Frater Cornelius]

After seeing what Death Guard will get I can no longer defend Codex Space Marines. It is uninspired, boring and sterile. DG are getting Deamons straight int their codex and actually an updated for their core units and HQs. Marines have a line that has not aged well at all and it is partly resin and only got Primaris, which looks very out of place when mixed with regular Marines and have very limited syngeries. Death Guard, despite having new models, get special weapon, whereas Primaris can not even choose the gear on their HQs. Just wow.

[Silas7]

After seeing what Death Guard will get I can no longer defend Codex Space Marines. It is uninspired, boring and sterile. DG are getting Deamons straight int their codex and actually an updated for their core units and HQs. Marines have a line that has not aged well at all and it is partly resin and only got Primaris, which looks very out of place when mixed with regular Marines and have very limited syngeries. Death Guard, despite having new models, get special weapon, whereas Primaris can not even choose the gear on their HQs. Just wow.

Woah you don't even realize SM privilege when it comes to the newness of our models. God forbid you star playing xenos or Csm even.

I do agree that Codex astartes feels a little bland next to death guard, mind you this is coming from someone that will only be playing with my imperium 1 index as I felt the codex didn't add enough value over the index that I had just bought the day before the codex was announced.

 

SM get more codex releases than anyone else so I won't have to wait long for GW to try again.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Silas7

[Frater Cornelius]

I hope they realize that they done goofed. Well, I suppose they were cautious with Primaris. DG is just an update. Releasing rules without models for Primaris might have lead to plenty incentive for third parties to jump on it. Still, I can not help but feel a little pissed. Takes motivation away from me.

[Captain Idaho]

It is a worry that GW are upscaling everything (seen the Necromunda stuff?) but it's a case of just waiting and seeing.

 

Personally I felt GW wanted to sell stuff to veterans of Space Marines which is understandable but I don't like their method. Primaris Marines are polarising and the increase of scale is actually something some people don't like.

 

If you don't want Primaris Marines then the new Codex is indeed bland as there is little else in there new.

 

What I felt GW should have done is instead brought out upgrade weapons and kits for existing Marines to create new units and roles. It would have generated sales and not increased the scale, whilst having the added benefit of not annoying a segment of the community.

 

I can tell you now that I'm not redoing my Marines AGAIN and if GW do indeed phase out classic Marines then I won't continue with another Space Marines army. It's my 3rd version of them due to new models and scaling.

Edited September 10, 2017 by Captain Idaho

[Sete]

How bad would it be, Guilliman reaches Earth, and a new founding of SM is issued.

 

Luckily the Emperor provides him with tech to avoid gene seed degradation, giving the Chapters with degraded gene seed a fresh start.

 

A new MK9 armour is developed and Guilliman starts his Indomitus Crusade with the new chapter founded.

 

And the story picks up from there.

Under Guilliman leadership new tech and STC are researched and developed.

 

No Primaris, this would give an excuse to develop a new and updated marine range, size of TS and DG, would not create a range division.

 

But nooooooo.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Anything to avoid a lawsuit i believe.

 

Don't get me wrong. I understand the need for "development" but i like variety (no matter how "redundant") I would of prefered something akin to the thunder warriors returning but now with geneseed to ehnance their abilities.

 

I don't mean to beat a dead horse but the way these guys just "turned up" annoys the crap outa me.

[deathspectersgt7]

SM privalige  that had me almost roll off the ole chair. When I had a glimpse of the new Codex I said no . That is the 1st SM codex in all the 27 years I did not buy. I have primaris Marine just to paint but 8th edition SM Codex turned me off . What Sete said + 1 .

[Kinstryfe]

For everyone wanting a redo of the Marine range... Why? There's an interlocking completely swappable range of models covering at least 6 flavors of Marines, plus vanilla. And almost every kit is completely compatible with almost all of the rest What options are left aside from upgrade sprues for specific chapters?

 

MkIX - would they be differentiated by new, better rules? If so, how angry would people be when they're "forced to buy new models just to be competitive"? If not, what's the point, given we don't have kits for MksII, V, VI, and VIII already?

New types of Marines - totally identical to how Primaris just came out of nowhere. People still get mad at having to buy new models.

Instead of primaris, release new true-scale Marines- you mean the 500 Marines I have are invalidated? I need to buy whole new armies or everything will look weird? How quickly can they release 30(?) new kits to replace the old range? Whargarble!

 

How, without invalidating an entire mega-range of kits, could GW have introduced anything more to the Marine range that would have added something truly unique that could cover 6+ unique kits that wouldn't have invalidated existing player collections. I can't think of one.

I really think it was primaris or nothing, and while I get how some people hate primaris enough that they would rather have Marines get no new kits at all, I think their relative popularity (at least around my area) seems to show the that it was a better idea to have them than to make no new Marine kits. Plus if you don't like primaris, well, just don't use them. I have some to paint, but zero interest in using them on the table, so it's a viable option...

[Frater Cornelius]

You are missing the point. The old Marine models look garbage next to the new upsclared releases, especially those cult troops Chaos has. And the rules in C:SM are boring. I do not doubt the efficiency of this rule set. It is strong. Very strong. I am confident it will utterly destroy DG, because of force multiplying. However, it is boring to just stand back in a bubble and shoot.

 

My personal issue on top of the aforemention one is that C:SM only has generic units. DG get Deathshrouds. How cool is that? A Heresy unit with loads of character, Caraphractii Terminator Armour. C:SM has none of that, just loads of generic Marines different paint jobs. It wasn't so bad before, but that GW showed willingness to expand with the likes of Scarab Oscult and Deathshroud TDA, this issue has jumped into the foreground for me. Heck, even the vanilla TDA look incredibly derpy next to all the upscaled models.

[Death Dealer 101]

Space marines kinda already have a stack of special units, multiple flavours of terminators, centurions, a dozen vehicles, space wolf only units, blood angel units, dark angel units, and a heap of special characters

Really not seeing why the whinge.

[Lord Blackwood]

You are missing the point. The old Marine models look garbage next to the new upsclared releases, especially those cult troops Chaos has. And the rules in C:SM are boring. I do not doubt the efficiency of this rule set. It is strong. Very strong. I am confident it will utterly destroy DG, because of force multiplying. However, it is boring to just stand back in a bubble and shoot.

 

My personal issue on top of the aforemention one is that C:SM only has generic units. DG get Deathshrouds. How cool is that? A Heresy unit with loads of character, Caraphractii Terminator Armour. C:SM has none of that, just loads of generic Marines different paint jobs. It wasn't so bad before, but that GW showed willingness to expand with the likes of Scarab Oscult and Deathshroud TDA, this issue has jumped into the foreground for me. Heck, even the vanilla TDA look incredibly derpy next to all the upscaled models.

You Realize this is like complaining that units like Wulfen ,  Deathwing  and Sanguinary guard exist right ? 

Catapractii armor exists in Codex Space marines so I  dont know where you  are getting the complaint that we dont have it from. 

 

Deathshroud are a unit for Codex Deathguard just like  Wulfen is a Unit for Codex Space Wolves 

They are fleshing out a faction 

 

How is this a bad thing ?  

 

We have several Space Marine codexes that are fleshed out ( Wolves , Blood Angels , Dark Angels , Deathwatch , Grey Knights )

 

Chaos is getting Deathguard  and Thousand sons as offshoots for their core book  chill 

 

 

[Frater Cornelius]

To be fair, I was looking at C:SM, not the specialized Marines, as I consider them to be different factions. I suppose you have a point. No point moaning about it. Better work on how to beat them :D

[Bremon]

I never cared for marines on the tabletop being the same height as every other range when marines are meant to be extra tall super humans. I'm ecstatic that truescale marines exist now but I'm somewhat saddened by all the new codex entries. I like intercessors stats but I feel C:SM is bloated without Primaris. With Primaris is just ridiculous and I'm not thrilled by the legion style mono-weapon squads. I'd have preferred intercessors were just a new tactical squad box. I understand people with old "short" tactical squads may be disappointed but it's no different than seeing the old Bloodthirster, etc. minis that are all comically small in today's game.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

This

[Robbienw]

Primaris are not a different scale, they are just bigger.

[Bremon]

Regardless, they are the size I felt marines should have been 15+ years ago, and I'm glad they at least partially got it right.

[Stoic Raptor]

But I think that's why so many people are apprehensive - and some are dissatisfied.  While "scale creep" has made some models more reasonably proportioned, it has rendered some old figures useless for tabletop play.  Look at a 1991 metal Terminator compared to a 2013 plastic Marine... now imagine everything else next to the Primaris line.

 

Your "old" Mk IV plastic Dreadnought comes up to a Redemptor's waist, your formerly-large plastic Calth Contemptor comes up to its mid-chest.  "How do you follow that?" as they say.

So yes, based on everything we've seen from GW over the last 25 years and even into the "new GW" years, it's only a matter of time before the regular-sized Marines go the way of all the other stuff that looks ridiculous on the tabletop now.

[Robbienw]

Keep make the miniatures bigger though, and at some point they won't be that miniature. For me Primaris are already getting a bit too big for infantry models (particularly the gravis ones), I much prefer the size of the regular Marines.

[Kinstryfe]

Well, yeah, but you have to take into account that a 1991 Terminator was sculpted TWENTY-TWO years before a 2013 space marine, it puts things in a different light. I don't think anyone would argue that 2017 primaris Marines aren't probably going to look silly next to whatever GW is making in 2039. By the same token, RBT01 Beakies look stupid next to anything made in the last 20 years. Heck, the 1991 terminators already looked out of place next to the plastic Marine kit they launched alongside 3rd edition. Do people /seriously/ expect models to not change and evolve across multi-decade spans? I get it. Some people irrationally hate Primaris Marines, but to be mad that your models from twenty years ago are outdated compared to brand new sculpts seems a little...odd.

[Bremon]

1991 terminators looked like garbage in 1999 when I started playing. Basically everything in the 2nd edition eldar codex looked like trash to me at that time as well and that was the army I started with; 3rd edition chipmunk scorpions, etc. It all looks dated now and not due to size creep.

 

I love the depth and cross compatibility the marine line has across it. My main point is I wish the primaris size was what they designed 15 years ago so that marine armies looked like an elite army of a small number of superhumans rather than humans with big shoulder pads. Just my opinion. I'm sure people were livid when the current godhammer land raider was released too. As far as size creep goes I know no one in my group was sad to see the old school rhinos get binned when the new tank aesthetic that's dominated marines for 15 years came out.

[Lord_Starscream]

I know this may sound weird, but I really hate the Primaris Marines.

 

Not the models (well, the non-tac equivilent models are bleh, but I mean the standard ones and the Hellblasters), I mean the backstory. It seems real bad. I can dig the models. If anything I really, really wish they released these guys as normal marines, and just said this is the new models for them.

You can still use the old ones, and we'll still have those on print if you need them, but this is the new marine going forward.

 

Instead, we'll get the slow phase out. Which kinda sucks, because I think Primaris, even for 40k, are really silly. As in silly-bad.