Preparing for Death Guard

[Jarl Caldersson]

 

Sigh, and now with a psychic spell, even their damn poxwalkers will be able to wound marines on 3+ AND inflict mortal wounds on 6s.

 

 

 

Are you talking about Blades of Putrefaction?

 

 

If you are then poxwalkers don't get this as they don't have plague weapons only improvised weapons.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

 

Sigh, and now with a psychic spell, even their damn poxwalkers will be able to wound marines on 3+ AND inflict mortal wounds on 6s.

 

 

 

Are you talking about Blades of Putrefaction?

 

 

If you are then poxwalkers don't get this as they don't have plague weapons only improvised weapons.

 

 

Oh OK, thank God (Yahwei that is) then. The idea of 20 poxwalkers inflicting mortal wounds on 6s on top of wounding marines on 3s nearly gave me an aneurysm.

 

Still makes poxwalkers insanely powerful though to the point of spammable nonsense. Let's hope the Plague Marines themselves don't get out staged by a bunch of happy zombies like how few CSM players want to take normal CSM over mass cultists. Though of course to fully maximise this, they'll need Typhus right off the bat, who is a psyker himself.

[Karhedron]

Bring in the Culexus and hope he doesn't get infected.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Bring in the Culexus and hope he doesn't get infected.

 

Oh no, I'm not going to be a dick and bring in outsiders and assassins. I got into 40K to play Wolves, not spandex wearing James Bonds.

[Jarl Caldersson]

 

Bring in the Culexus and hope he doesn't get infected.

 

Oh no, I'm not going to be a dick and bring in outsiders and assassins. I got into 40K to play Wolves, not spandex wearing James Bonds.

 

 

Bringer in some SoS, they have a long history with the SWs. You know killing heretics, burning planets that sort of stuff.

[Karhedron]

Oh no, I'm not going to be a dick and bring in outsiders and assassins. I got into 40K to play Wolves, not spandex wearing James Bonds.

Plenty of fluff background to support it though. Just look at how well Old Man Logan gets on with the Inquisition.

 

Erm...... nevermind.

[Triszin]

 

 

 

 

Bring in the Culexus and hope he doesn't get infected.

Oh no, I'm not going to be a dick and bring in outsiders and assassins. I got into 40K to play Wolves, not spandex wearing James Bonds.

Bringer in some SoS, they have a long history with the SWs. You know killing heretics, burning planets that sort of stuff.

Are sos affected by the aura'd mortal wounds? If not they might be perfect to bring

[Bulwyf]

I am with Kasper. I don't bring a single non Space Wolf model, ever, in my lists. I got into this back in rogue trader days and through the years I've always stuck by Space Wolves and Death Guard.

 

And just a FYI, not that I am calling anyone out in particular, but over on some of the other boards they are poking fun at us here on this board for griping about the DG. It only makes me more determined to find a way to field pure SW lists against them.

[Closet Skeleton]

I have no idea how good Space wolves are but most of what I was hearing about pre-codex DG is that they're kind of bad.

 

I wouldn't be that scared about DG psykers, you still have psychic hoods and Njall can deny two powers a turn.

 

Then you have Jaws of the World Wolf. DG all have low movement values, with Lords of Contagion and therefor likely other Nurgle terminators being move 4". They get a 5+ save and you still have to roll quite high for it to be better than smite but it will hurt when you do roll high.

 

Nurgle's rot is just Orbital bombardment but not :cuss. Its not exactly power creep outside of the general fact that if you're still using the index you're sub par.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

And just a FYI, not that I am calling anyone out in particular, but over on some of the other boards they are poking fun at us here on this board for griping about the DG. It only makes me more determined to find a way to field pure SW lists against them.

I don't really concern myself with what other forums are saying about SW. DG present a new and unique challenge in the form of mortal wound spam and tough, resilient units. Discussing how to counter this challenge is in no way whining or crying but, whatever. I'll throw dice with whatever someone puts on the table. I'm kind of eager to face Mortarion.

 

As to outside help, there are some instances where it is warranted and I personally don't have an issue with adding in a force multiplier or enabler like an assassin if need be, especially in a competitive list.

 

DG will require a different approach. Assault probably won't be the first tactic to use against them. We'll need to shape conditions for an assault through the other phases of the game and attack where we can get the greatest gains. I don't think the sky is falling and I'm sure we'll find a way to adapt.

[Garreck]

I can't wait to get a game in against new DG. Im sticking with vehicles and bikes as a starting point. I'm not worried about mortarion: games with primarch on one side are largely (and understandably) a foregone conclusion. I expect to fare well against DG armies not fielding mortarion.

 

All of that said, it's a legit observation that, pending unit costs, new DG outmatch MANY opponents, not just SW. Anyone making fun of that observation is just trolling or deluded. Its totally cool to play the new shiny and powerful, just don't pretend you're not playing the new shiny and powerful.

[Karhedron]

So far the 3 armies that have recieved Codices are significantly stronger than most armies built using the Index lists (possibly aside from a few exceptions like Conscript spam). This is understandable and I don't have a major problem with it so long as everyone ends up balanced in the end.

 

I think that we are pretty decent as far as Index armies go (just look at poor Blood Angels for where we could have ended up). However fighting an army with a new shiny codex full of icky toys is going to be a challenge for sure. Not an auto-loss or anything but you will need a good list to stand a chance. A significant problem is that DG are looking strong in the mid-range which is normally where we do well. Getting close is risky with all those mortal wound generators but hanging back at long range doesn;t really play to our strengths either.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I am with Kasper. I don't bring a single non Space Wolf model, ever, in my lists. I got into this back in rogue trader days and through the years I've always stuck by Space Wolves and Death Guard.

 

And just a FYI, not that I am calling anyone out in particular, but over on some of the other boards they are poking fun at us here on this board for griping about the DG. It only makes me more determined to find a way to field pure SW lists against them.

 

You're kidding me? Oh well, not my concern. For my part, my original intention was to highlight the latest leaks and my concerns on how to counter them with just our current Index Imperium 1 units.

 

So far the answer is that it's plausible but we may have to revert to the old tactics from 5th edition Long Fangs gunline, where the extra heavy weapon MIGHT make a difference. Basically multiwound weapons to MAKE SURE they fail at least one Disgusting Resilient Save. Keep the assault units like Wulfen and Terminators back until one is reasonably certain that when they charge and wound, they will annihilate the unit rather than leave one man standing to spread Nurgle's curses.

 

In addition, I think we should make use of the Company Ancient, which as per Index Imperium FAQ version 1.1, was added to our unit list for Space Wolves. While the leadership boost is not so important for Long Fangs, I've experienced  a few hilarious moments where I killed the plasma gunner in range combat, only for him to fire back an overcharged shot as a last F U before dying and actually managing to blow up my razorback. 

 

Last thing we should do until our codex, is to borrow the generic Space Marine strategems. I can't remember any which is particularly useful against death Guard, except for the pseudo interceptor one which allows a unit to hit a enemy unit that just deep struck near it. I'm not sure what's the interceptor penalty though, is it -1 to hit or is it like overwatch hit on 6? I don't think our opponent will begrudge us borrowing a few strategems from there except for the chapter specific ones of course. If he is, he is a dick and don't play with him.

 

 

So far the 3 armies that have recieved Codices are significantly stronger than most armies built using the Index lists (possibly aside from a few exceptions like Conscript spam). This is understandable and I don't have a major problem with it so long as everyone ends up balanced in the end.

 

I think that we are pretty decent as far as Index armies go (just look at poor Blood Angels for where we could have ended up). However fighting an army with a new shiny codex full of icky toys is going to be a challenge for sure. Not an auto-loss or anything but you will need a good list to stand a chance. A significant problem is that DG are looking strong in the mid-range which is normally where we do well. Getting close is risky with all those mortal wound generators but hanging back at long range doesn;t really play to our strengths either.

 

Just curious, what's wrong with the Blood Angels? Apart from being too pretty and angry of course. :P I thought they were in the same boat as Space Wolves in the sense of having no chapter tactics and as usual, GW inability to make Captain Tycho and lost Tycho actually useful. If I'm not mistaken, for 7th and 8th edition, the crazy Tycho has NO CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS AT ALL except his bare fists.

 

The other thing I can think off for them to complain are the state of Death Company, but I can't recall exactly what changed except that they no longer have Rage for +2 attacks. Nevertheless, I do remember their Black Rage still gives +1 attack on the charge like Berserk on blood claws.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

DG are going to be very tough. LF gun line with an ancient will put in some work but you're likely to have one, maybe two shooting phases before Morty comes a'knockin. Mortarion moves 12, will likely have a chaos sorcerer buddy fir warp time which puts him another 12" for ward and ready to shoot lantern at a string of units and then charge. A savvy player will also likely deep strike in a unit of terminators (forgot the name) that can tank wounds for him on a 2+.

 

If you can see where Mortarion is deployed you can counter deploy in the opposite corner to buy some time, otherwise, you might be better served spreading your lon fangs around a bit. We'll see how it goes.

 

As for using SM stratagems, that may work in casual settings but will not fly in tournaments.

[Bulwyf]

Sadly you can't use generic SM stratagems for space wolves in tourney battles. Even a friendly game the opponent could not allow it since SW are their own army with their own codex coming out later.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Sadly you can't use generic SM stratagems for space wolves in tourney battles. Even a friendly game the opponent could not allow it since SW are their own army with their own codex coming out later.

 

Like I said, I will ask if I can "borrow" the strategems. 

 

 

DG are going to be very tough. LF gun line with an ancient will put in some work but you're likely to have one, maybe two shooting phases before Morty comes a'knockin. Mortarion moves 12, will likely have a chaos sorcerer buddy fir warp time which puts him another 12" for ward and ready to shoot lantern at a string of units and then charge. A savvy player will also likely deep strike in a unit of terminators (forgot the name) that can tank wounds for him on a 2+.

 

If you can see where Mortarion is deployed you can counter deploy in the opposite corner to buy some time, otherwise, you might be better served spreading your lon fangs around a bit. We'll see how it goes.

 

As for using SM stratagems, that may work in casual settings but will not fly in tournaments.

 

Until someone proves to me that a mono-codex list can beat a freaking Primarch, daemon or otherwise, I'm not going anywhere near Mortarion.

 

However, thank you for reminding me of the heretek powers which allows the extra movement phase. I'll just have to make sure my fire base is appropriately castled up to protect the Fangs as well as other high value stuff.

[Karhedron]

Sadly you can't use generic SM stratagems for space wolves in tourney battles. Even a friendly game the opponent could not allow it since SW are their own army with their own codex coming out later.

Am I missing something? I thought that we could use generic SM stratagems since we have the Adeptus Astartes keyword. Is it in the fine print of the SM codex?

[Karhedron]

 

I think that we are pretty decent as far as Index armies go (just look at poor Blood Angels for where we could have ended up).

Just curious, what's wrong with the Blood Angels? Apart from being too pretty and angry of course. I thought they were in the same boat as Space Wolves in the sense of having no chapter tactics and as usual, GW inability to make Captain Tycho and lost Tycho actually useful. If I'm not mistaken, for 7th and 8th edition, the crazy Tycho has NO CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS AT ALL except his bare fists.

 

The other thing I can think off for them to complain are the state of Death Company, but I can't recall exactly what changed except that they no longer have Rage for +2 attacks. Nevertheless, I do remember their Black Rage still gives +1 attack on the charge like Berserk on blood claws.

 

Blood Angels have trouble in that all the signature units and wargear are overpriced/underpowered. Sanguinary Guard have to pay 9 points for an Angelus Bolt Gun which is ridiculous when 7 points gets you a plasma pistol. Death Company cost as much as Khorne Berzerkers but are massively inferior in CC. Their one advantage is that they can take Jump Packs but this is not much of an advantage in an edition where a Rhino is a decent assault platform again and can be used to eat Overwatch.

 

The CC Bonuses that Blood Angels had in previous editions are now tied to characters meaning that the only way to make Assault BA vaguely playable is to have multiple overlapping buff auras. Dante is the most expensive Chapter Master yet has no special rules beyond rerolling to hits. The Furioso is more expensive and worse than an Ironclad Dread. It goes on.

 

At least our SW signature units are decent this edition. Grey Hunters are a solid Troop unit. Long Fangs can reroll 1s to hit without a Captain to hold their hands which makes Plasma-spam viable. Bjorn and Njal rock (I haven't tried other special characters yet). Wolf Guard are great and flexible. TWC have been toned down since 7th Ed but are still viable. You can play a thematic SW list and do pretty well competitively, you cannot do the same with BAs.

 

And now back on topic.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

 

I think that we are pretty decent as far as Index armies go (just look at poor Blood Angels for where we could have ended up).

Just curious, what's wrong with the Blood Angels? Apart from being too pretty and angry of course. I thought they were in the same boat as Space Wolves in the sense of having no chapter tactics and as usual, GW inability to make Captain Tycho and lost Tycho actually useful. If I'm not mistaken, for 7th and 8th edition, the crazy Tycho has NO CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS AT ALL except his bare fists.

 

The other thing I can think off for them to complain are the state of Death Company, but I can't recall exactly what changed except that they no longer have Rage for +2 attacks. Nevertheless, I do remember their Black Rage still gives +1 attack on the charge like Berserk on blood claws.

 

Blood Angels have trouble in that all the signature units and wargear are overpriced/underpowered. Sanguinary Guard have to pay 9 points for an Angelus Bolt Gun which is ridiculous when 7 points gets you a plasma pistol. Death Company cost as much as Khorne Berzerkers but are massively inferior in CC. Their one advantage is that they can take Jump Packs but this is not much of an advantage in an edition where a Rhino is a decent assault platform again and can be used to eat Overwatch.

 

The CC Bonuses that Blood Angels had in previous editions are now tied to characters meaning that the only way to make Assault BA vaguely playable is to have multiple overlapping buff auras. Dante is the most expensive Chapter Master yet has no special rules beyond rerolling to hits. The Furioso is more expensive and worse than an Ironclad Dread. It goes on.

 

At least our SW signature units are decent this edition. Grey Hunters are a solid Troop unit. Long Fangs can reroll 1s to hit without a Captain to hold their hands which makes Plasma-spam viable. Bjorn and Njal rock (I haven't tried other special characters yet). Wolf Guard are great and flexible. TWC have been toned down since 7th Ed but are still viable. You can play a thematic SW list and do pretty well competitively, you cannot do the same with BAs.

 

And now back on topic.

 

 

Noted. Always had a soft spot for the Blood Angels, it's just that I rather be a hairy viking/werewolf/....... whatever, I just don't believe in being too pretty or bishounen.

 

Although I don't think one can play a thematic SW list and do well competitively either. Like I said in my other thread "Am I being a stubborn old fool?" , my meta base is increasingly forgoing the tried and true workhorse troops and do whatever they can to SPAM their favorite toys instead. The damn WAAC players look at the internet and immediately pick on Stormraven Spam, Tau Commander Spam, Mass Centurion Spam etc. The only ones who use troops are Imperial Guard with the even more ridiculous massive 50 man conscript blobs.

 

Back on topic, has anybody actually managed to beat Magnus without resorting to a Culexus or Sister of Silence or any other outsider for that matter? Either in 7th or 8th. I ask this just to have a baseline for when Mortarion comes out. Not that I'm going to face him anyway. Somehow, I don't think that even with Granddaddy Papa Smurf aiding my Wolves, it won't do me much good.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

 

Sadly you can't use generic SM stratagems for space wolves in tourney battles. Even a friendly game the opponent could not allow it since SW are their own army with their own codex coming out later.

 

Am I missing something? I thought that we could use generic SM stratagems since we have the Adeptus Astartes keyword. Is it in the fine print of the SM codex?

Pg 194 of the Space Marine codex clarifies who can and cannot use the rules. It specifically states that DA, BA, aND SW will have their own special rules in future supplements.

 

I'll provide you with a direct quote from the book when I get home from work.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

For those of us without tga t codex would anyone care to share if that's legit or not?

[Closet Skeleton]

 

Until someone proves to me that a mono-codex list can beat a freaking Primarch, daemon or otherwise, I'm not going anywhere near Mortarion.

 

Easily. Mortarion's not even that tough, I reckon Magnus is tougher with the new Tzeentch spell active (4++ 5+++ vs 3++ with rerolls of 1). If you can kill several knights you can kill Mortarion and I haven't found Knights hard at all in 8th no matter how little I was optimizing. Even my Tyranids who really sucked against Knights managed to reliably kill them eventually. En

 

Noobs will let Mortarion rush ahead of his comparatively slow army and will die against an entire army. Bolt guns even wound him on 5s.

 

For those of us without tga t codex would anyone care to share if that's legit or not?

 

 

Sort of.

 

A Space Marine detachment is what unlocks Space Marine stratagems and that's defined as a detachment that contains only units of the chapters dealt with in Codex: Space Marines. Its the Chapter keywords that do the unlocking not the Adeptus Astartes keyword. The text that Wulfgar76 mentioned is basically just a clarification of intent, the rule excludes Space Wolves without that paragraph.

 

However, most of the individual stratagems work on any Adeptus Astartes unit and unlocking the stratagems only requires a single Space Marine detachment.

 

So by RAW if you ally in a patrol of a Space Marine librarian and a unit of scouts or something you can use all the stratagems in Codex: Space Marines. Then there's nothing that stops you using many of them on your Wolves (just not any of the chapter specific ones or stuff like the one that works on Scout bikes).

[wulfgar hammerfist]

 

For those of us without tga t codex would anyone care to share if that's legit or not?

 

 

Sort of.

 

A Space Marine detachment is what unlocks Space Marine stratagems and that's defined as a detachment that contains only units of the chapters dealt with in Codex: Space Marines. Its the Chapter keywords that do the unlocking not the Adeptus Astartes keyword. The text that Wulfgar76 mentioned is basically just a clarification of intent, the rule excludes Space Wolves without that paragraph.

 

However, most of the individual stratagems work on any Adeptus Astartes unit and unlocking the stratagems only requires a single Space Marine detachment.

 

So by RAW if you ally in a patrol of a Space Marine librarian and a unit of scouts or something you can use all the stratagems in Codex: Space Marines. Then there's nothing that stops you using many of them on your Wolves (just not any of the chapter specific ones or stuff like the one that works on Scout bikes).

 

 

I would disagree that bringing along a minimal SM detachment would allow SW units to take advantage of any stratagems within the codex.  Page 194 plainly states, "Note that other Space Marine Chapters, such as the Blood Angels and the Space Wolves deviate significantly in terms of organisation and fighting styles.  These Chapters therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section, and instead have their own rules."

 

Rules and abilities include Defenders of Humanity, Chapter Tactics, Stratagems, Warlord Traits, Relics, and Psychic Powers.

 

You're free to use stratagems on whatever units you brought in the SM detachment but wolves cannot use them.  You could try to rules lawyer it I suppose but I think the wording is clear enough that it is not allowed.  We can agree to disagree and abide by however our individual metas choose to rule on it.

[spacepup]

I've actually beat lists with Magnus and Gulliman in their respective armies using exclusive space wolves list. It's a matter of target saturation. Making them roll many dice is bound to make them fall. I remade my army after the release of the Iron Wolves. So the amount of razorbacks, rhinos full of pissed off space wolvesis bound to make my opponent roll lots of dice.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I've actually beat lists with Magnus and Gulliman in their respective armies using exclusive space wolves list. It's a matter of target saturation. Making them roll many dice is bound to make them fall. I remade my army after the release of the Iron Wolves. So the amount of razorbacks, rhinos full of pissed off space wolvesis bound to make my opponent roll lots of dice.

 

You must have busted out every heavy weapon you had. I seriously doubt you defeated either using massive yiffs.

 

 

 

For those of us without tga t codex would anyone care to share if that's legit or not?

 

 

Sort of.

 

A Space Marine detachment is what unlocks Space Marine stratagems and that's defined as a detachment that contains only units of the chapters dealt with in Codex: Space Marines. Its the Chapter keywords that do the unlocking not the Adeptus Astartes keyword. The text that Wulfgar76 mentioned is basically just a clarification of intent, the rule excludes Space Wolves without that paragraph.

 

However, most of the individual stratagems work on any Adeptus Astartes unit and unlocking the stratagems only requires a single Space Marine detachment.

 

So by RAW if you ally in a patrol of a Space Marine librarian and a unit of scouts or something you can use all the stratagems in Codex: Space Marines. Then there's nothing that stops you using many of them on your Wolves (just not any of the chapter specific ones or stuff like the one that works on Scout bikes).

 

 

I would disagree that bringing along a minimal SM detachment would allow SW units to take advantage of any stratagems within the codex.  Page 194 plainly states, "Note that other Space Marine Chapters, such as the Blood Angels and the Space Wolves deviate significantly in terms of organisation and fighting styles.  These Chapters therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section, and instead have their own rules."

 

Rules and abilities include Defenders of Humanity, Chapter Tactics, Stratagems, Warlord Traits, Relics, and Psychic Powers.

 

You're free to use stratagems on whatever units you brought in the SM detachment but wolves cannot use them.  You could try to rules lawyer it I suppose but I think the wording is clear enough that it is not allowed.  We can agree to disagree and abide by however our individual metas choose to rule on it.

 

 

In the end guys, I'm just saying that in friendly games against the new Death Guard make sure to ask opponent if can use the generic strategems in Codex SM. I'm just listing this as a temporary solution pending our own codex as the normal CPs are rather bland and seem to pale in comparison to the Death Guard ones. Let's not get into rules lawyering on whether we can use or not legally.

 

 

I have no idea how good Space wolves are but most of what I was hearing about pre-codex DG is that they're kind of bad.

 

I wouldn't be that scared about DG psykers, you still have psychic hoods and Njall can deny two powers a turn.

 

Then you have Jaws of the World Wolf. DG all have low movement values, with Lords of Contagion and therefor likely other Nurgle terminators being move 4". They get a 5+ save and you still have to roll quite high for it to be better than smite but it will hurt when you do roll high.

 

Nurgle's rot is just Orbital bombardment but not . Its not exactly power creep outside of the general fact that if you're still using the index you're sub par.

 

As mentioned, the Nurgle side will not be lacking in psykers to deny Jaws, so not good to rely on it. That being said, putting priests on bikes is never a bad idea if only for mobile cover.