Preparing for Death Guard

[Jarl Caldersson]

 

If I can say, I see a bunch of suggestions on how to deal with mortarion without considering his support units like the deathshroud that will help him out.  Deathshroud can absorb a wound, bloat haulers can add 1 to armor saves, etc etc.

 

I suggest we collect a list on how DG are running mortarion and finding a proper way to counter-attack next game.

 

 

Its impossible to collect that list since the codex isn't out. There's just preview battle reports like the above mini-wargaming one (where both players were noobs and forgot Mortarion's auras most of the time and the primarch still died despite randomly being allowed to swat away an ironclad without being struck).

 

But most of the guys on the chaos forum are confused as to how to keep Mortarion alive and finding Deathshrouds expensive and hard to get in the right place.

 

 

 

Thats why I suggest we  wait and collect a list on how DG are running mortarion and find a proper way to counter. This isn't something that we can predict because someone will find a loop hole and use it. Without our codex we are on the defensive side of strategy where we must counter-act instead of be pro-active.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

Long Fangs are great but Mortarion is only t7 so Grey Hunters and Blood Claws can still takes critical wounds off him. Over-charged plasma and melta will wound him on 3s.

I think you have hit the nail on the head here. If you obsess about Morty to the extent that you dedicate twice his value in points to try and kill him, your opponent has already won the head-game.

 

Treat Morty like any other target and chip off wounds opportunistically where you can. Focus him with heavy weapons only if he becomes a priority. Above all, remember to play the mission.

 

I had a fun game against Stealers last night. My army performed well and I wiped out most of my opponent's army but I nearly lost because the game hinged on holding a single objective which turned out to be the one deep in my opponent's deployment zone. I had a long run to get there and only managed to snag the objective when my Hellblasters rolled a 6 for their Advance after I spent a CP on a reroll.

 

 

Perhaps we should shift the discussion to the assumption of no Morty in the list. as mentioned, I'm not keen on the idea of tailoring a list just for a Primarch. As you say Karhe, if we focus exclusively on him to the expense of all the superb Death Guard units and gimmicks, we've already lost the psychological game and focus on the entire battlefield, not the just the army.

 

If possible, let's go back to discussing the counter tactics for the new toys APART from Morty. Like that Typhus protected by Deathshroud, those creepy crawlie daemon engines, as well as ensuring the damage from strategems are minimised, which to me can only be done by keeping them at arms length and then absolutely murdering them one unit at a time, rather than tying multiple units in a combat where each unit can potentially deal a mortal wound.

[Deadnaughty]

So, I know this is a little off topic. But, did you guys see the plague brethren up for pre-order? With those, the dice and how much they put into Mortarion, I'm hoping that means we'll get the same kinda love when our codex drops. It may be a little rough until then, but after that we should have some real awesomeness to drag back to the fang.

Let me try and save you from a big dissapointment.

 

Its not happening

 

The deathguard are basically a new army. As such they got a lot of new models and 'hype' to sell them.

 

We are not a new army.

We will not get new models

We will not get 'hype'.

We will get a codex, and some dice with a logo on them like the other marines got, not fancy dice like the Deathguard

[Karhedron]

I agree with Deadnaughty. Making a full codex out of an army that was previously just a sub-faction is a great opportunity for GW. They get people who already suffer from Shiny New Army syndrome (although it is probably Slimy New Army syndrome in the case of DG). They get people who have the DG from the new starter set and they have existing CSM players who have some Nurgle units and can be tempted into expanding them into a full army (or at least a full detachment).

 

Nurgle is basically getting what BAs, DAs and SWs have had for several editions, a standalone army that is more than just Marines with a few bed sores.

 

GW have also indicated that they are going to be including rules in with models in future. This means they can de-couple miniature releases from codex releases. This is good at the start of a new edition as otherwise I don't see how they would get the full list of 20-ish codices out before the end of the decade.

 

The downside is that most releases will probably not include much in the way of miniatures. Look at next month's AdMech codex. Most of the models in there are pretty new. GW can just release some spiffed-up rules for them and put them out without having to worry about coming up with new models.

 

After that, Nids, IG and Eldar are all coming before Christmas. All of these are long-established armies who could benefit from some new plastic love (Warp Spiders are over 20 years old now) but I don't know if we are likely to see anything.

[Jarl Caldersson]

 

So, I know this is a little off topic. But, did you guys see the plague brethren up for pre-order? With those, the dice and how much they put into Mortarion, I'm hoping that means we'll get the same kinda love when our codex drops. It may be a little rough until then, but after that we should have some real awesomeness to drag back to the fang.

Let me try and save you from a big dissapointment.

 

Its not happening

 

The deathguard are basically a new army. As such they got a lot of new models and 'hype' to sell them.

 

We are not a new army.

We will not get new models

We will not get 'hype'.

We will get a codex, and some dice with a logo on them like the other marines got, not fancy dice like the Deathguard

 

 

I think at most we may get 1 or 2 new unique primaris units and maybe and its a reach but a primaris character. It makes me worried we haven't seen a primaris character yet.

[Karhedron]

It makes me worried we haven't seen a primaris character yet.

 

Plenty of characters, just no named ones as yet.

 

Going back to Death Guard, one interesting possibility is to send in the airforce. Our Flyers can keep out of range of the Death Guard's nastiness while pumelling them with heavy firepower. Once they have been sufficiently softened up, we can disembark the infantry who have been waiting in reserve inside.

 

The Death Guard look very short on anti-aircraft guns and even though Morty can Fly, chasing any aircraft through the skies will take him away from any Deathshround bodyguards as well as robbing his pestilent followers of his aura abiltiies. Probably need 3+ fliers to really pull this off though.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You can't really complain about Mort with Bobby super buffing Ultra gun lines. Mort is relatively slow and he doesn't like those imperial lascannons.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

You can't really complain about Mort with Bobby super buffing Ultra gun lines. Mort is relatively slow and he doesn't like those imperial lascannons.

This is a tactics discussion to figure out how to use SW to beat DG. Guilliman is a separate issue that creates a different set of problems for SW. Guilliman isn't buffing many, if any, SW gunlines.

 

Primarchs in general are difficult to deal with. In a properly built DG/Chaos army, Mortarion is not that slow.

[Lars the Red]

 

 

So, I know this is a little off topic. But, did you guys see the plague brethren up for pre-order? With those, the dice and how much they put into Mortarion, I'm hoping that means we'll get the same kinda love when our codex drops. It may be a little rough until then, but after that we should have some real awesomeness to drag back to the fang.

 

Let me try and save you from a big dissapointment.

 

Its not happening

 

The deathguard are basically a new army. As such they got a lot of new models and 'hype' to sell them.

 

We are not a new army.

We will not get new models

We will not get 'hype'.

We will get a codex, and some dice with a logo on them like the other marines got, not fancy dice like the Deathguard

 

I think at most we may get 1 or 2 new unique primaris units and maybe and its a reach but a primaris character. It makes me worried we haven't seen a primaris character yet.

Well, Deathguard have been around for a while. I remember they got some really cool models back in third, and have seen a little love here and there since. And we space wolves get new toys pretty often. When we do, we drop tons of cash on them. That's why I'm optimistic for our release. At the very least, I could see some cool conversion kits for primaries marines. And I wouldn't mind some shiny new dice.

 

Back on topic. Do we know yet how expensive all these shiny(gross) new toys cost? They sound dangerous, but if they're expensive that means fewer models to deal with. And if there are fewer of these slower models, speed should be a good way to combat them. Personally, I love running a couple of biker gangs and engage them one unit at a time on our terms. Do the troops who hand out mortal wounds effect troops in transports? If not, just stay in your rhinos/razorbacks/land raiders/stormwolfs until it's time to hop out and unleash Hel. Or drop in with terminators or drop pods. Also, remember to play to scenarios. I've won more than my share of games due to the opponent forgetting the victory conditions while I distract and win on objectives.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

You can't really complain about Mort with Bobby super buffing Ultra gun lines. Mort is relatively slow and he doesn't like those imperial lascannons.

This is a tactics discussion to figure out how to use SW to beat DG. Guilliman is a separate issue that creates a different set of problems for SW. Guilliman isn't buffing many, if any, SW gunlines.

Primarchs in general are difficult to deal with. In a properly built DG/Chaos army, Mortarion is not that slow.

You didn't get my main point. I know Mort is the new boogey man but he can be contained with basic tools available to Marines in general.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

Since you brought up Guilliman in a SW forum I figured you were trolling. If that's not the case, apologies. To your point, which I didn't miss, yeah, lascannons will solve a lot of problems if you can get them on target. I envision a CSM sorcerer will be almost mandatory for warp time to get Mortarion 24" across the table. Furthermore, the DG player who wants to use Mortarion as a battering ram will invest in the Deathshroud terminators who can tank wounds for Moration on a 2+. They can deep strike in to be close to Mortarion for the benefit to take effect. So we are going to have to chew through a minimum of six wounds with a 2+/4++/5+++ before we put wounds on Mortarion.

 

All of that being said, that is a significant investment in points if one includes the minimum sized unit of Deathshroud terminators. I think it's close to 700 points for Mortarion and three terminators. I don't think winning versus DG is insurmountable at all but will require employing tactics mentioned earlier in the thread (lascannons, playing to the mission, using flyers, etc.). I am interested to see some of the DG synergies with their various new vehicles.

[Bulwyf]

I'm thinking Stormwolf, whirlwind, LRC, two RB one with LAC and one with AC, pack in some wulfen, toss in Bjorn and Njarl and wait for the DG to come to you. If they deepstrike termies into your shooty units pop out the wulfen to take care of that. Njarl's jaws on the poxwalkers or frankly every unit but Morty in the DG list should be a lot of wounds every turn.

[ORKILL]

I played with Mortarion last night. He is an absolute beast! He rolled right over Magnus. He absorbed wounds from Magnus, killed him and then took two rounds of combat with Changling, surviving 19 attacks a round. He just made saves and dished out damage.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

 

You can't really complain about Mort with Bobby super buffing Ultra gun lines. Mort is relatively slow and he doesn't like those imperial lascannons.

This is a tactics discussion to figure out how to use SW to beat DG. Guilliman is a separate issue that creates a different set of problems for SW. Guilliman isn't buffing many, if any, SW gunlines.

Primarchs in general are difficult to deal with. In a properly built DG/Chaos army, Mortarion is not that slow.

You didn't get my main point. I know Mort is the new boogey man but he can be contained with basic tools available to Marines in general.

 

 

dude that is the whole point of this thread discussion. I greatly fear that the basic tools WONT be enough to contain not just Mortarion but the WHOLE Death Guard army. Yes, mass Lascannons can kill almost anything in the game, but do you seriously think most of us like to use mass Long Fang gunlines? Multiple spearhead detachments with Long Fangs? Without any melee defenses or offensive abilities? Why bring Roboute Guilliman in this discussion?

 

I know I sound like I'm ranting, but I would like to repeat that this is to discuss against Death Guard as a whole with just our current Index Imperium 1 stuff. Not to discuss if we'll get the same love or toys when our codex gets out. 

 

So people, if you have an input on how to fight new Death Guard as far as we know, please take into the following assumptions

 

1) We are using only CURRENT units to date for Imperium units (including FAQ Version 1.1). I would like to say ONLY Space Wolves units, but part of me begrudgingly admits that we will need a little help outside Space Wolves. Just don't suggest an entire list of Culexus assassins and only a few token Space Wolves or I'll get really angry. 

 

2) Take into account ALL units of the new DG. By today (14/9/17), we have a near complete picture of their abilities, new units, relics and psychic powers, with only their full list of strategems, warlord traits and plagueburst crawler lacking full details. Do not assume a DG army is only Morty and only comment with him in mind.

 

3) Do not speculate on future Space Wolves codex. We have other threads discussing potential strategems and chapter tactics. In other words, no whining on what we do not have, and focus on what we DO have.

 

4) I'm not one to talk, but even as we disagree, let's do it courteously and rationally. If there is a troll (which I don't think anyone posting here is), just ignore him/her completely.

[Bulwyf]

My biggest gripe with playing against DG with my SW is that I play my SW balls to the wall, ultra aggressive with the main focus of trying to put my assault units in prime position while having enough shooty stuff to take out high wound/toughness targets. The DG are like a splash of dirty water to the face because the iconic fluff/play style of SW of an almost all assault army would be rendered almost useless against the mortal wound bonanza the DG will now have.

[Jarl Caldersson]

The issue I see is that the SW's aren't known for using soap and as we all know soap is the greatest enemy of the DG. Therefore GW has specifically made the DG as the counter to SW's.

 

 

To be honest I actually thing until other index armies get their codex they are going to be underpowered. This might be a reason why GW is pushing out codecs relatively fast.

[Dantay VI]

How many wounds does Mortarion have?

[Kasper_Hawser]

The issue I see is that the SW's aren't known for using soap and as we all know soap is the greatest enemy of the DG. Therefore GW has specifically made the DG as the counter to SW's.

 

 

To be honest I actually thing until other index armies get their codex they are going to be underpowered. This might be a reason why GW is pushing out codecs relatively fast.

 

LOL, I can only imagine the smell at the Aett. And yet the Wolves are supposedly known for their acute senses which somehow isn't hampered by their own stench. I guess you are truly blind to your own stench.

 

Sadly from what I read, real life Vikings were a hygenic bunch even if they didn't use soap, which is why we have all the elaborate braided beards which wouldn't work if they simply ate without washing or cleaning up. I remember one scene in the 13th warrior movie where they all washed their faces from the same bowl of water. Disgusting but at least they do wash.

[Karhedron]

Mort is relatively slow and he doesn't like those imperial lascannons.

With a 12" move and Fly, he isn't really particularly slow. The only reason he might have for moving slowly is to keep near his boys to spread his aura bubble. Frankly I don't see many players using him this way. The most likely use will be using him as a battering ram. Morty advances as fast as possible (with Warp Time if possible) and then Termies teleport in to act as a wound soakers for him. The rest of the DG army then advance to lend fire support while Morty rips the heart out of the enemy.

 

Lascannons are all well and good but you need 35 Lascannon shots to kill Morty on average (slightly less if you have some rerolls handy). Even IG will struggle to bring that number of Lascannons to bear and I certainly don't know anyone with 7 packs of Long Fangs.

 

Take a favourite fire support unit, the Assault Cannon Razorback. It is cheap and pack plenty of firepower as well as providing transport for a small pack. Firing one at Morty will on average cause 1 wound if it is stationary and 0.667 if it moves. Overcharged plasma guns are slightly better as a 5-man squad (like Hellblasters or combi-plas WG) will cause on average 3 wounds. All that assumes though that there are no Deathshroud nearby to tank for him.

 

I don't think any SW army is going to drop Morty with shooting. We have to accept that he will hit our lines so we need to consider what we can bring to counter that. Bjorn will do about 5 wounds on average so he might be able to finish him off. Trouble is that even with his durability, I doubt he will survive long enough to get a second swing. 

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

Mort is relatively slow and he doesn't like those imperial lascannons.

With a 12" move and Fly, he isn't really particularly slow. The only reason he might have for moving slowly is to keep near his boys to spread his aura bubble. Frankly I don't see many players using him this way. The most likely use will be using him as a battering ram. Morty advances as fast as possible (with Warp Time if possible) and then Termies teleport in to act as a wound soakers for him. The rest of the DG army then advance to lend fire support while Morty rips the heart out of the enemy.

 

Lascannons are all well and good but you need 35 Lascannon shots to kill Morty on average (slightly less if you have some rerolls handy). Even IG will struggle to bring that number of Lascannons to bear and I certainly don't know anyone with 7 packs of Long Fangs.

 

Take a favourite fire support unit, the Assault Cannon Razorback. It is cheap and pack plenty of firepower as well as providing transport for a small pack. Firing one at Morty will on average cause 1 wound if it is stationary and 0.667 if it moves. Overcharged plasma guns are slightly better as a 5-man squad (like Hellblasters or combi-plas WG) will cause on average 3 wounds. All that assumes though that there are no Deathshroud nearby to tank for him.

 

I don't think any SW army is going to drop Morty with shooting. We have to accept that he will hit our lines so we need to consider what we can bring to counter that. Bjorn will do about 5 wounds on average so he might be able to finish him off. Trouble is that even with his durability, I doubt he will survive long enough to get a second swing. 

 

 

As you say, our best hope is that by the time Morty comes a knocking, the rest of his army will be sufficiently weakened to minimise the mortal wound fall and extra fire support. If we can degrade Morty and his body guards to just a couple of units, then the units in combat can fall back and focus fire again.

 

In meantime, play mission. I'm thinking of putting a few wolf scouts or reivers and hopefully the army won't bother about them reaching for backfield objectives. Maybe even tie the poxwalkers a bit if necessary. With 2 wounds, hopefully they won't fall easily and tie one or two blobs from advancing further.

 

I just tried calculating, a wolf scout can potentially pack 2 plasma pistols, one combi plasma, and one plasma guyn for a total of 6 plasma shots at 12 " range. Reasonably cheap and can act as a good distraction he can't afford to ignore. Hopefully that will pull or distract either a poxwalker gang or a plague marine squad from moving forward while rest of the gun line continues to pummel. Probably best to target and hurt the plague tanks though.

[Yoyo ninja]

Did I miss something with the deathshroud? If Magnus is anything to go by, Morty is going to have lots of wounds, so will be targetable, even if he isn't the closest unit. How are the deathshroud going to tank if we can just shoot the big guy?

[Jarl Caldersson]

Did I miss something with the deathshroud? If Magnus is anything to go by, Morty is going to have lots of wounds, so will be targetable, even if he isn't the closest unit. How are the deathshroud going to tank if we can just shoot the big guy?

 

deathshroud have an ability that if another DG take a wound within 7"(?) that on a 2+ the deathshroud will take the wound instead.

 

edit:  A tactic I have seen from DG is start with a unit of 3 around morti to absorb and damage on turn 1. Next deepstrike a unit of deathshroud around him once he is in combat to prolong his life by another 9ish points.

[Dantay VI]

So they get look out sir kinda?

[Jarl Caldersson]

So they get look out sir kinda?

 

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Sep10Preview-Bodyguard5tz.jpg

[Karhedron]

Deathshroud don't absorb Wounds, they absorb Hits! 

 

For a unit that has a 2+/4++/5+++ save, that is a big deal. It means that relatively flimsy Characters (if there are any such things in a DG army) can effectively be protected by Cataphracti armour.

 

It also means that anyone seeking to simply drown Morty in bolter fire will have to deal with their 2+ save instead of Morty's own 3+ save. With 18 Wounds and DR, Morty was hardly vulnerable to small arms fire but a handful of Deathshroud will close down any chink of vulnerability there.