Preparing for Death Guard

[Karhedron]

It is quite depressing just how tough it is to put wounds on Morty. A pack of Long Fangs with MLs or LCs will put on average 3 wounds on him per turn.

 

Even if you buy 3 squads and a WGBL to give them rerolls to wound, you are spending more points than Morty costs for something that will take at least 2 rounds to kill him and that is only if your opponent is obliging enough not to kill any of them and to give them all clear shots at the Primarch. Any Deathshroud and you can just forget about it.

 

I realise Morty is supposed to be tough, that is pretty much his thing. But he is also fast since he can Fly 12" per turn and very killy, able to dice large targets, reap through infantry and dish out mortal wounds to anyone who gets too close to his malodorous bod.

 

I just hope that Russ is as good when he finally gets back from his drinking games.

[Lars the Red]

I think most units have some element of that. Where it would take an amount of points equal to their value at least 2 turns to take them out just playing the odds. Some will do better than others in certain situations. I think this is just a challenge to solve. It will take me some time before I have time to make it to the FLGS for a rematch, but I'm looking forward to trying it. 

[Kasper_Hawser]

Two suggestions come to mind: storm fang should never leave home without twin-melta, and when using 2+ long fang units, split up the ML and LC so you always have some of both left if they wipe one of them (now that everyone has split fire, there's no downside).

 

I could suggest also that you make Bjorn the warlord, and let of have the 6+FNP that stacks with his built-in 5+FNP, just to give him that extra bit of survivability.

 

One other idea: bring 2-3 cyberwolves (all in 1 model units) to use as deep strike counter measures. They are SO worth their points.

 

Hmmm, 15 points to per wolf just to make sure they can't deep strike all over our backyard...... I guess the easy first blood (assuming there is nowhere to hide the wolf on that edge of the table), is worth a bunch of heavy weapons popping out of nowhere in your back field. damn Raven Guard (well, they're time to shine is long overdue after about two years with a strange and shifty chapter tactics.

[Scaerne]

Wolf-brothers,

 

After reading through all those posts, I'm a bit on a complete loss :
I'm still a fairly new member/SW player and still need a lot to learn...
In 2 a 3 weeks I will have a friendly match for 1000 Pts vs DG and have utterly no clue what to field.
I've been looking at Bjorn and Njall + a big squad of Grey Hunters filled with plasma and a lascannon Razorback,
but that would already net me about 700ish Pts and it feels like i field nothing against a horde on the other side (just numbers of units)

Sadly I dont have that much figures yet and lack by example the Long Fangs atm etc...
I could field a LR Crusader or a Stormfang but that's again loads of points which hopefully don't get splattered in turn 3

Anyone that could put me in a good direction what to take ?
Thanks a ton in advance

[Karhedron]

I am wondering how a blob of Dreadnoughts would fare against DG. Take Bjorn, Murderfang and an Axe/Shield dread to lead the way and soak fire. Back up with an Iron Priest to patch them up and you have something tough enough to reach the enemy and survive melee with them while dishing out the pain againts them in CC.

 

Mortal wounds might be a problem but you won't be losing whole models so the Iron Priest should be able to do some good work on repairing them. Is it worth sinking 600+ points into?

[Jarl Caldersson]

Wouldnt they just charge you and put Mortal wounds on your priest since it will he within 7" or use plague drones with plague spewers to catch him.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Wolf-brothers,

 

After reading through all those posts, I'm a bit on a complete loss :

I'm still a fairly new member/SW player and still need a lot to learn...

In 2 a 3 weeks I will have a friendly match for 1000 Pts vs DG and have utterly no clue what to field.

I've been looking at Bjorn and Njall + a big squad of Grey Hunters filled with plasma and a lascannon Razorback,

but that would already net me about 700ish Pts and it feels like i field nothing against a horde on the other side (just numbers of units)

 

Sadly I dont have that much figures yet and lack by example the Long Fangs atm etc...

I could field a LR Crusader or a Stormfang but that's again loads of points which hopefully don't get splattered in turn 3

 

Anyone that could put me in a good direction what to take ?

Thanks a ton in advance

 

Sorry for seemingly scaring you like this. I admit there are times where I think I inadvertently started this thread making it sound that the DG are invincible and Space Wolves don't have a chance in frozen hell to beat them.

 

As mentioned by admittedly a small number of posters, the DG are not invincible and can be beaten. However, it will be an uphill battle and if your opponent is a jerk who only fields Typhus and 60 pox walkers with a few Death Guard terminators to protect typhus or deepstrike behind your lines, then yes, it'll be nigh impossible to beat in a 1000 points battle, let alone 2000.

 

My best suggestion and what I've gathered so far is pretty basic: gunline and let the DG come to you. If he has terminators, castle up near each other and try your infantry in transports or behind LOS. All the while making sure your assault razorbacks have LOS on his incoming stuff.

 

One suggestion I've heard lately, is to use a simple Cyberwolf for each FA slot, and use them to deny deepstriking by placing them all over your backyard. @ 15 points a model, its the cheapest thing we can field, and perfectly tactical just to deny him from being able to drop in the back.

 

Meanwhile, apart from Razorback, Whirdlwind is longer range and one version is 2D6 shots, which is quite good and doesn't need LOS. And its about the same cost of a Razorback I think. 

 

Bjorn should have a Lascannon just in case he happens to bring a Hellbrute for shooting, or that new plague tank.

 

Hope this helps.

[Scaerne]

Thank you Kasper_Hawser,

It helps a bit, still figuring out what to field.
Thinking on going for

                                                                  or
Njall                                                                 Njall in termie
Wolf lord (for rerolls)                                       Bjorn
full squad of Grey Hunters with plasma's       full squad of Grey Hunters with plasma's
Ven Dread with guns                                      cc Wolf Guard Termie squad
Razorback with Lascannons                          Razorback with Lascannons

Landraider Crusader

No idea what to expect, but I did play once for 750Pts a test game with Bjorn, swiftclaws and 2 Cavalry units
and got my ass handed back to me after I destroyed only half his forces...


 

[Bulwyf]

I play both SW and DG extensively. The DG's greatest bane is all shooty lists. You can see someone thinking they can get in CC with DG...that's when a DG player licks their lips and thanks Papa Nurgle. You can't out assault DG. SW are in a bad spot against DG because you have to field non fluffy lists.  I would go with Njall and Bjorn and whatever LRC or RB you have. Spam that autocannon on them. Until SW get our own codex with our own strats to use for CP...we are kinda stuck against the DG.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Thank you Kasper_Hawser,

 

It helps a bit, still figuring out what to field.

Thinking on going for

                                                                  or

Njall                                                                 Njall in termie

Wolf lord (for rerolls)                                       Bjorn

full squad of Grey Hunters with plasma's       full squad of Grey Hunters with plasma's

Ven Dread with guns                                      cc Wolf Guard Termie squad

Razorback with Lascannons                          Razorback with Lascannons

Landraider Crusader

 

No idea what to expect, but I did play once for 750Pts a test game with Bjorn, swiftclaws and 2 Cavalry units

and got my ass handed back to me after I destroyed only half his forces...

 

 

 

 

Hi Scaerne. I think the 1st list is better if only because it has more guns, but you might want to consider giving the Razorback the Assault cannon, and the Ven Dread with Twin Lascannon. Second list is I like except your CC terminators won't be supported or have rerolls apart from Njal's psychic support which does little to boost combat ability.

 

I play both SW and DG extensively. The DG's greatest bane is all shooty lists. You can see someone thinking they can get in CC with DG...that's when a DG player licks their lips and thanks Papa Nurgle. You can't out assault DG. SW are in a bad spot against DG because you have to field non fluffy lists.  I would go with Njall and Bjorn and whatever LRC or RB you have. Spam that autocannon on them. Until SW get our own codex with our own strats to use for CP...we are kinda stuck against the DG.

 

I'm beginning to accept there's little we can do apart from waiting for our codex or asking the DG opponent to limit themselves (fat chance for competitive bastards) when having a game. Otherwise, it'll be an extreme uphill battle unless the opponent makes a critical error.

 

Sigh, and this morning, heard Craftworld Eldar are next. Already expected, but still feeling down on this. Like the Eldar needed the codex update earlier.

[Bulwyf]

All of the SM that are non codex complaint are going to be hurting badly until we get our codex. Technically SW can't use the regular SM strats because SW are considered their own army. Contrast that with DG and CSM who get great use out of their CP and it isn't pretty.

[Karhedron]

Sigh, and this morning, heard Craftworld Eldar are next. Already expected, but still feeling down on this. Like the Eldar needed the codex update earlier.

To be fair, I play both SWs and Eldar and Eldar definitely need the new dex more. While we may be behind the curve set by the new codices, the SW index is fairly decent and allows for variety. Our various infantry units work well, we have some nice special characters and our signature units are usable (if not up to the glory days of 7th).

 

Eldar on the other hand have no decent Troops which restricts access to CPs. Many classic units are unplayable and we only have a couple of competitive units at the moment. Playing an army of Reapers and Wraithguard in Wave Serpents backed up by a Hemlock is viable but that is pretty much the only list that is and it is weak vs hordes and gets tired quite quickly.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

Sigh, and this morning, heard Craftworld Eldar are next. Already expected, but still feeling down on this. Like the Eldar needed the codex update earlier.

To be fair, I play both SWs and Eldar and Eldar definitely need the new dex more. While we may be behind the curve set by the new codices, the SW index is fairly decent and allows for variety. Our various infantry units work well, we have some nice special characters and our signature units are usable (if not up to the glory days of 7th).

 

Eldar on the other hand have no decent Troops which restricts access to CPs. Many classic units are unplayable and we only have a couple of competitive units at the moment. Playing an army of Reapers and Wraithguard in Wave Serpents backed up by a Hemlock is viable but that is pretty much the only list that is and it is weak vs hordes and gets tired quite quickly.

 

 

I find what you say hard to believe that the Eldar have significant weaknesses that need to be addressed, but I won't distrust your word. From my point of view, Eldar have lots of gimmicks especially if you go the Ynead route. The one thing I do agree is that Dire Avengers cost a whopping 17 points a model which I feel is too much but when fully equiped, they resemble more of an elite killing unit than a normal troop should.

 

Not sure what you mean by classic units being unplayeable, but in my meta, Striking Scorpions have made a return. Fire Dragons are still boss, Guardians are still being used a lot, Warwalkers continue to be annoying mobile guns on legs. The one thing I don't see is Howling Banshees, Wraithlords and admittedly, the Swooping Hawks which used to be common back in 7th.

 

Oh well, lets not get into the topic discussing Eldar. The least you can do for us Karhe, is once the Eldar Codex comes out, kick Mortarion's slimy butt back into the warp. And his little first captain Typhus too.

 

Actually with Soulburst, the Death Guard killing you fast "MIGHT" backfire once you start activating free shooting or assault. Similar to Wulfen striking back before they die, except applies to shooting too.

[Deadnaughty]

 

 

Sigh, and this morning, heard Craftworld Eldar are next. Already expected, but still feeling down on this. Like the Eldar needed the codex update earlier.

To be fair, I play both SWs and Eldar and Eldar definitely need the new dex more. While we may be behind the curve set by the new codices, the SW index is fairly decent and allows for variety. Our various infantry units work well, we have some nice special characters and our signature units are usable (if not up to the glory days of 7th).

 

Eldar on the other hand have no decent Troops which restricts access to CPs. Many classic units are unplayable and we only have a couple of competitive units at the moment. Playing an army of Reapers and Wraithguard in Wave Serpents backed up by a Hemlock is viable but that is pretty much the only list that is and it is weak vs hordes and gets tired quite quickly.

 

 

I find what you say hard to believe that the Eldar have significant weaknesses that need to be addressed, but I won't distrust your word. From my point of view, Eldar have lots of gimmicks especially if you go the Ynead route. The one thing I do agree is that Dire Avengers cost a whopping 17 points a model which I feel is too much but when fully equiped, they resemble more of an elite killing unit than a normal troop should.

 

Not sure what you mean by classic units being unplayeable, but in my meta, Striking Scorpions have made a return. Fire Dragons are still boss, Guardians are still being used a lot, Warwalkers continue to be annoying mobile guns on legs. The one thing I don't see is Howling Banshees, Wraithlords and admittedly, the Swooping Hawks which used to be common back in 7th.

 

Oh well, lets not get into the topic discussing Eldar. The least you can do for us Karhe, is once the Eldar Codex comes out, kick Mortarion's slimy butt back into the warp. And his little first captain Typhus too.

 

Actually with Soulburst, the Death Guard killing you fast "MIGHT" backfire once you start activating free shooting or assault. Similar to Wulfen striking back before they die, except applies to shooting too.

 

I believe the general sentiment amongst eldar is that Ynarri are great and as a result GW nerfed eldar in the index to draw Ynarri back in line. So playing 'normal' eldar feels terrible.

[Karhedron]

I believe the general sentiment amongst eldar is that Ynarri are great and as a result GW nerfed eldar in the index to draw Ynarri back in line. So playing 'normal' eldar feels terrible.

You could well be right. Strength from Death does look strong although I have not played it myself. The interesting thing is that the new codex Craftworld traits look to still be compatible with SfD. So you can take Ynnari and still get your bonuses for belonging to a particular craftworld provided your non-Craftworld units are in a different detachment.

 

Sorry, going rather OT here.

[Bulwyf]

Could we not discuss Eldar stuff in this thread? There's no quicker way for a thread to be locked than talking completely off topic like the recent posts have done.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Could we not discuss Eldar stuff in this thread? There's no quicker way for a thread to be locked than talking completely off topic like the recent posts have done.

 

Yup back to Death Guard vs Space Wolves. Latest idea I have is more Whirlwinds instead of AC Razorbacks, but sadly, the damn new DG tanks also ignore LOS.

[Bulwyf]

Whirlwinds would let you keep them as far back as possible while still shooting slow moving units.

[Scaerne]

I know some or most of you are not into the new primaris units and I'm still divided by them myself.
(presume the Battle-Forged idea is not counting then if you mix them in, so loosing the extra CP from Bjorn ?)

But what about Intercessors ?  -> high mobility and lots of shots ?
and what about a hellbalster squad ?  -> with all the plasma stuff ?

[Karhedron]

Hellblasters are awesome, there is no doubt about it but they need a reroll from either Bjorn or a Wolf Lord to be effective as against a lot of targets, they need to overcharge to get the job done.

 

I like the RF version myself and I walk them up the battlefield with Bjorn. In my last game against Necrons they blew away Praetorians, Immortals and a Ghost Ark and only took 3 wounds during the battle.

 

Some people prefer Long Fangs but I feel the fill slightly different roles. Hellblasters can do more damage at close range and are more mobile which allows them to hunt down tough targets, particularly if you have plenty of LOS blocking terrain. Also they are pretty cheap at just 165 points for a min-sized squad and they have double the wounds of Long Fangs.

 

I have not tried Inceptors yet but I run a pair of Assault Cannon RBs to transport my Grey Hunters. The 2 RBs cost only slightly more than 3 Inceptors, have S6 rather than S5, 24 shots as opposed to 28 and 20 T7 wounds vs 6 T5 wounds. Even if the RBs move, they still shoot better as the extra RoF of their guns makes them superior, even at -1BS. Granted they are not quite as fast or mobile as Incepetors but given what RBs bring for their points, I just can't see the point of Inceptors.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

I think a case can be made for inceptors given the number of -1 to hit over 12" modifier that a lot of the newly released armies are getting access to. That makes plasma more dangerous and moving heavy weapons way more inaccurate. I don't know if inceptors are the answer but they provide a means for getting a lot of shots past that debuff.

[Bulwyf]

So I'm bumping this to see how people have been doing since then against DG especially after the FAQ nerfed the poxwalker spam.

 

I played a game tonight where my DG list absolutely demolished my opponent's Space Wolves. As someone that plays both DG and SW it always distresses me that Space Wolves are in a very bad spot fighting DG. This isn't even with poxwalker spam since I never played that in my DG and my wife and friend playing SW against me struggle greatly.

 

I am an ardent if not almost fanatical supporter of assault lists. I just don't know if an assault list can deal with DG. Going full dakka seems so contrary to the fluff but it might be the best way to deal with DG.

 

So how have you guys done against SW? When I play my SW against DG I usually went against poxwalker spam lists which meant assault cannons for all was a good way to deal with it. But against an actual balanced list of DG...ugh.

[Karhedron]

DG are a tough matchup for Wolves, no doubt about it. They excel at the same sort of mid-range fighting that we do but do it better thanks to T5, DR and various stratagems.

 

Our usual lynchpin units like Grey Hunter are simply outclassed against Plague Marines so you have to look at the really heavy hitters like tooled-up Wulfen if you want to make a dent in them in CC. The real hard core though of a Death Guard list is actually the Daemon Engines IMHO. They are extraordinarily tough and Plauge Burst Crawlers have the firepower and resilience to make Guard Tanks look puny. Bloat Drones can shoot nastily, fight in close combat and then withdraw to do it again.

 

Without much help from Stratagems and Traits, it is an uphill struggle so we have to look at what special units we have that can get stuck in. Thunder Hammers and Storm shields are a solid combo as they have the hitting power to force damage through, even on Daemon Engines and the durability to stand up to Entropy Cannons and the like (although watch out for lists that try and spam Mortal Wounds).

 

I would load up on plasma Hunters and Hellblasters to deal with DG infantry. A sprinkling of Frost Axes may help but don't go overboard on points here. Razorbacks are always solid and a mix of Assault Cannons and Lascannons will be good. Even without Poxwalkers, Assault Cannons are still good as they wound Plaugue Marines on a 3+ and have AP-1. Sometimes the best way to get through stacked saves are simply to throw lots of dice at them. Long Fangs to target the Daemon Engines with shooting and Axe/Shield Dreads are perfectly suited to tackling Bloat Drones in CC. Some combo of Wulfen and/or TWC with THs/SSs will be able to punch through their lines and a Wolf Priest will help to patch them up from the inevitable Mortal Wounds.

 

Death Guard rely on their Daemon Engines for Fire support but with BS4+, they are vulnerable to negative modifiers. Tempest's Wrath and Flyers are both tougher than normal against DG fire support so are worth considering. Lastly, something fast to harass Plague Burst Crawlers. These things are tough but have little CC ability and often get left unguarded in the back field as the infantry advances. Charge them with anything fast simply to tie them up and deny them some shooting for a turn so the rest of your army can concentrate on killing infantry and Bloat Drones.

 

I have beaten Death Guard before but you will need the right tools to do it, a dash of luck and make sure you play to the objectives. You also need to make sure you use your superior speed to try and ensure favourable engagements. You want your Dreads taking the brunt of the Bloat Drones and then hitting back with axes rather than having your infantry melted. Simmilarly, make sure you use massed firepower when taking on their infantry.

[PeteySödes]

Ss/SB Wolf gaurd in a TLAC RB did well last game vs them. Same with outflanking melta GH. Th outflank made them paranoid to leave their deployment zone and expose their armor.

 

For me it’s all foresight, you need to plan because in general if they get on an objective it’s theirs. We have to use our speed advantage to choose the fight wisely. It’s super hard though since that list can change game to game even more so than nids.

[Gherrick]

I've had solid luck in outflanking <insert non-troop primaris here>. Aggresors are great to bring against their heavy vehicles, and that 18" range is insane for clearing screens quickly. Hellblasters with a 15" rapid shot can really make the opponent nervous to leave any openings in the rear, and incepters are essentially much faster HBs when you don't need the AP-4. I haven't tried it yet, but it feels like a repulsor filled with 10 HBs, while expensive, would mean you can get the HBs into an advantageous position very quickly.