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"Fixing" Commissars & Conscripts


patchestheclown

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Hello all,

 

With the new codex incoming my friend group has been talking about what changes we will see with AM. Two of the biggest topics that we are curious about are Commissars and Conscripts. Currently (as seen at NOVA) 40+ Conscripts with a Commissar in tow seem to rule the day and are very tough for most armies to deal with. Now all of my friends and I love the cinematic feel of the Commissar keeping the raw/forced recruits in line. We don't really want to see them done away with but some balance is probably due. Here are the two "fixes" that we liked the best and wanted some more input on the matter.

 

Fix for Conscripts

Conscripts can't receive orders.

Straight forward and simple. This still makes them very good, cheap units to have on the field but by taking away orders you eliminate some of the lethality of the unit. Still good objective campers and bubble wrapping units but will not be able to pump out crazy amounts of shots, free melee attacks in the shooting phase, etc. These are forced recruits into the army, they probably shouldn't be executing complex battlefield maneuvers is our thinking.

 

Fix for Commissars

Commissars execute half (rounded down) of models lost to morale.

A little more complicated. The idea here is that rather than just 1 "example" to make the Commissar needs to make progressively more depending on how many would run away. So during the Morale Phase the units who lost models would still take morale like normal, but as long as the Unit was within 3" of the Commissar only half of those casualties would take effect. So a conscript blob who is at -15 Ld (due to casualties and die roll) would only lose 7 extra models rather than 15 because the Commissar kills half of those running to keep the other half in line.

 

 

What do you think?

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Could be something as simple as the Commissar removing a model and letting you re-roll the test? The problem isn't with Commissars I'd say, more Conscripts. Arguably the problem isn't really with them either it's with other armies (more elite ones) making use of a cheap horde so they can have their cake and eat it. Mix in the reduced effectiveness of the old horde solutions in templates and blasts in the core game rules and you have sort of a perfect storm (at least as far as the Internet is concerned? :P ).

 

Conscripts are not the only hordey unit in the game with similar issues, so I'd prefer not to see Guard suffer too much for a wider problem. Removing orders from Conscripts makes sense and would reduce the problem though I gather the main issue is the numbers/resilience of the unit.

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With commissars, they need to be careful not to ruin them for normal squads. Personally i think commissars could do a "remove one model in affected squad to reduce morale losses by D6, with option to remove more models until the unit passes e.g. remove 3 to reduce losses by 3D6" You have to make the choice before the roll or try and rely on the commissars LD 8 bubble. 

 

This change would work well with both normal 10 man squads and 50 man conscripts.

 

Or remove one model to make the roll an automatic 1. (not as keen on this, prefer the randomness of human courage)

 

I do not see why people say Conscripts should loose orders. they have always had orders and some conscripts are still well trained e.g. whiteshields. They are just unbattletested. I could see them having to roll to see if the order works or not, like back in 7th when you had to do a LD test. maybe 4+ order works, roll less and the order fails. Rather than flat out "no orders" encourage the randomness of green troops as they taste their first battle for the imperium.

Edited by Halfpint100
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Good god....

 

Conscripts don't need fixing. As codexes are released there will be less and less incentive for Imperial Soup armies to exist outside of Imperial Agents style lists.

 

The whole conscripts-must-be-nerfed movement is an overreaction. We haven't even seen each faction in it's entirety yet.

Edited by Brother Captain Ed
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In a vacum both commissars and conscripts are fine.

Orders are implemented perfectly in the army.

 

Commissar need to work as they do now for normal 10 man squads. The real tricky part is to make it work fine for those squads while still doing something to reduce the effect on the blobs.

 

I have no perfect solution, but I think someone suggested removing 1 model per 10 man. I feel the blob+commissar interaction is too strong, and I play guard myself.

Something along this line: units [AM] within 6" maximum lose 1 model per 10.

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The summary execution rule is written in a simple way but it is not reflecting the behaviour on the battlefield.

Commissars dont limit the losses, they execute one man in order to make the others stay (i know, its the same but from a different point of view).

 

So the rule would be written like this: when a squad loose a morale test execute one model in that squad. The test is passed instead.

 

So big losses from commissars would not be a fluffy thing imho.

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I say the best way to deal with the problem spam is to make them a taxed unit. 

 

Muster the Reserves: Conscripts may be taken as a Troops Choice with no restrictions, as long as the Warlord is an Astra Militarum Character.

Infantry Platoon: For every 2 infantry squads and 1 platoon commander, you may take a conscript squad. A conscript squad taken in this way does not occupy a troops slot.

 

That buffs them slightly for guard true (ignoring FOC limits, but still having to pay points for them), but when we consider that Most if not all guard players will likely take at least 2 infantry squads, and for a conscript squad that doesn't occupy an FOC slot they'd probably take a platoon commander to give orders to that squad. You're now looking at 305 points (at cheapest, using a LC as both the commissar and HQ, and taking no upgrades on the infantry squads), and that's going to force a choice for other imperium players, because that's 305 points of stuff they wouldn't have to spend on other things. Considering a cheap blob can  be had for 211 points currently. 

 

I know we all kind of hate taxes on units, but in this case we guardsmen aren't going to complain about having to take infantry squads to get more bodies. Marine Players will complain about having to take things that they didn't want to get the things they do, but if they wanted hordes they should have played guard.

 

Now, the way they will sidestep this by planning around the tax. I still think that it will make non guard players seriously consider whether it's worth it, while having less impact on guard players. Also this would be sidestepped by making your warlord a guard character, but then again you're still forcing Marine and Admech players to make choices.

 

Personally I like the idea of conscripts, but the rules(DKoK, Elysians, Militarum Tempestus) I tend to play and the types of armies I like (More elite) don't really lend themselves to using them.

 

This is just my take on it. People will find a way to abuse something good regardless of what we do, so all we can really do is figure out how to defeat our own tactics...

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I say the best way to deal with the problem spam is to make them a taxed unit. 

 

Muster the Reserves: Conscripts may be taken as a Troops Choice with no restrictions, as long as the Warlord is an Astra Militarum Character.

Infantry Platoon: For every 2 infantry squads and 1 platoon commander, you may take a conscript squad. A conscript squad taken in this way does not occupy a troops slot.

 

That buffs them slightly for guard true (ignoring FOC limits, but still having to pay points for them), but when we consider that Most if not all guard players will likely take at least 2 infantry squads, and for a conscript squad that doesn't occupy an FOC slot they'd probably take a platoon commander to give orders to that squad. You're now looking at 305 points (at cheapest, using a LC as both the commissar and HQ, and taking no upgrades on the infantry squads), and that's going to force a choice for other imperium players, because that's 305 points of stuff they wouldn't have to spend on other things. Considering a cheap blob can  be had for 211 points currently. 

 

I know we all kind of hate taxes on units, but in this case we guardsmen aren't going to complain about having to take infantry squads to get more bodies. Marine Players will complain about having to take things that they didn't want to get the things they do, but if they wanted hordes they should have played guard.

 

Now, the way they will sidestep this by planning around the tax. I still think that it will make non guard players seriously consider whether it's worth it, while having less impact on guard players. Also this would be sidestepped by making your warlord a guard character, but then again you're still forcing Marine and Admech players to make choices.

 

Personally I like the idea of conscripts, but the rules(DKoK, Elysians, Militarum Tempestus) I tend to play and the types of armies I like (More elite) don't really lend themselves to using them.

 

This is just my take on it. People will find a way to abuse something good regardless of what we do, so all we can really do is figure out how to defeat our own tactics...

This seems like the best option, tbh. Though Id scrap the warlord part, just have every conscript squad have a two infantry squad tax. If thats not sufficient, give conscripts a rule that they lose d3 models to the commissar instead of a single one. That should fix most of the issues, imo (some might want to make it D6 models, but at that point, you might be losing more models than you should, which kind of defeats the point of it mitigating morale...)

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This seems like the best option, tbh. Though Id scrap the warlord part, just have every conscript squad have a two infantry squad tax. If thats not sufficient, give conscripts a rule that they lose d3 models to the commissar instead of a single one. That should fix most of the issues, imo (some might want to make it D6 models, but at that point, you might be losing more models than you should, which kind of defeats the point of it mitigating morale...)

 

 

The summary execution rule is written in a simple way but it is not reflecting the behaviour on the battlefield.

Commissars dont limit the losses, they execute one man in order to make the others stay (i know, its the same but from a different point of view).

 

So the rule would be written like this: when a squad loose a morale test execute one model in that squad. The test is passed instead.

 

So big losses from commissars would not be a fluffy thing imho.

I'm with Phubar on this one. Losing more than one model to a commissar is not fluffy, and it's also not a good mechanic. 

 

The Tax is probably the best way to go.

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Good god....

 

Conscripts don't need fixing. As codexes are released there will be less and less incentive for Imperial Soup armies to exist outside of Imperial Agents style lists.

 

The whole conscripts-must-be-nerfed movement is an overreaction. We haven't even seen each faction in it's entirety yet.

 

The Space Marine codex is out, Space Marines are playing Imperial Soup. The most common list performing at top tables had some element of Bobby G + Assbacks + Conscripts for meat shield at NOVA. I'd say this argues your point with actual data, unless they are nerfed in the codex their use in that manner will likely continue.

 

The best fix I have heard of for Conscripts is a requirement of 1 conscript squad per platoon, which I believe is how it was originally handled.

Edited by Brother_Gneecapper
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The space marine codex is the *only* imperial codex out and it contains the *only* loyal primarch.  AND that primarch happens to buff conscripts...

It is FAR more concerning to me as an AM player that our most successful lists had about 14 psykers and 1400 mortars. If you want to waste time on "fixing" a faction that isn't complete in an edition that's not fully released, then let's talk about how we can keep our cheap bodies and weapons without encouraging the ruthless spamming of whatever the most efficient unit in any slot is.

The data is incomplete. The sky is not falling. I don't see a reason to insist that we help beat our own faction. At the end of the day, if it really does turn out that Tau aren't good enough, and Eldar stop being space Noldor, and no amount of daemon primarchs make Chaos any good, then so be it. I have my own conscripts and indirect fire. Better luck next edition.

Luckily for everyone involved, I don't think we need to worry too much.

Edited by Brother Captain Ed
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I've played Conscripts every game of 8th I've played with IG. I've ran a low of 40, to a high of 150, always backed up by a Commissar and almost always a Priest. I can say that, in my experience, Conscripts are NOT a problem in the context of an Imperial...er...ugh /Astra Militarum/ army. My opponent tonight was freaking out at me taking a single unit of 50 until they frfsrf at 11" into his Deathwing and caused one unsaved wound. Within an AM army, they're a tarpit, and it's easy enough to ignore them or focus fire on them. There is a point where you just need to not be "That Guy" and take tons of them, and they aren't really that powerful, especially once your opponent knows how Conscripts work.

 

The real problem is Imperial Soup armies, and that's what needs to be addressed. Taxes may work. 2 guard squads per Conscript unit isn't terrible, because if you're going beyond that you may be being "That Guy", and it raises the cost to include in imperial soup armies may be inflated enough to discourage it. Maybe only allowing Conscripts in the "largest unit size detachment" could work if mono-list detachments keep becoming more of a thing. I wouldn't even be adverse to Conscripts just being limited to AM armies. "The greenest and least experienced of the Astra Militarum, Conscripts are always fielded next to their more experienced kin, and it would be considered a slight against a more elite force to send them as reinforcements, with more seasoned squads of Guardsmen inevitably being seconded to Astartes and Mechanicum forces." Boom, problem solved.

 

I do think Commissars are fine though. They'd be a case of breaking them to fit one unit, so I'd suggest leaving them as is.

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Or you know, just leave it alone. Or require 2 Infantry Squads per conscript squads and/or limit them to one per detachment. You're trying to get non-IG armies to not spam them, not punish IG for having one good unit everyone wants.

This is my point exactly. 

 

I think that conscripts should have a mechanic that lets Imperial Guard make full use of them, but that limits them in regards to allies. I don't want to punish Any faction for having units that are useful to other armies. I don't even care about punishing Imperial Soup armies, maybe just making it points inefficient at tournament levels. I don't play in tournaments because of exactly this sort of stuff. I can't stand powergamey cheese, I play because it's fun, and because I can craft a story. It's one of the reasons I've shied away from wargames and more towards RPG's.

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I've played Conscripts every game of 8th I've played with IG. I've ran a low of 40, to a high of 150, always backed up by a Commissar and almost always a Priest. I can say that, in my experience, Conscripts are NOT a problem in the context of an Imperial...er...ugh /Astra Militarum/ army. My opponent tonight was freaking out at me taking a single unit of 50 until they frfsrf at 11" into his Deathwing and caused one unsaved wound. Within an AM army, they're a tarpit, and it's easy enough to ignore them or focus fire on them. There is a point where you just need to not be "That Guy" and take tons of them, and they aren't really that powerful, especially once your opponent knows how Conscripts work.

 

The real problem is Imperial Soup armies, and that's what needs to be addressed. Taxes may work. 2 guard squads per Conscript unit isn't terrible, because if you're going beyond that you may be being "That Guy", and it raises the cost to include in imperial soup armies may be inflated enough to discourage it. Maybe only allowing Conscripts in the "largest unit size detachment" could work if mono-list detachments keep becoming more of a thing. I wouldn't even be adverse to Conscripts just being limited to AM armies. "The greenest and least experienced of the Astra Militarum, Conscripts are always fielded next to their more experienced kin, and it would be considered a slight against a more elite force to send them as reinforcements, with more seasoned squads of Guardsmen inevitably being seconded to Astartes and Mechanicum forces." Boom, problem solved.

 

I do think Commissars are fine though. They'd be a case of breaking them to fit one unit, so I'd suggest leaving them as is.

 

 

I think taxes are the best way to handle it, attaching a Conscript squad per platoon makes sense both fluffwise and would be a tax that would not really affect AM all that much while making the cost alot higher for Imperium. The issue with Conscripts is they are not deadly on paper or alone, buffed they can be monsters.

 

Sure they hit on 5's and wound on 5's for most stuff but when you got 50 of them FRFSRF on something with Guilliman's reroll everything rule suddenly they can start putting things down by sheer number of saves. 

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I think we leave the mechanics of how they are alone and simply say if Guard is taken as allies ....no conscripts,or even more simpler Conscripts are only available to a full guard (Astra Militarum) army list ...isn't this what the main debate is really about...marine armies etc taking a huge meatshield of conscripts to tournaments?...  

i never liked the allies idea (except for themed fluffy/fun games), You want to play marines boy? well suck it up sunshine and use what the primarch gave you...don't go hiding behind 150 guard conscripts !!...

 

Mithril 

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Just make it so Conscripts don't fill compulsory troop slots, and give them the auxila regiment.

Problem is that Auxilia has no officers, so now they can't take orders, so you've effectively nerfed them and punished guard players. I do like the can't be used to fill a compulsory troops slot idea, but that smacks of 30k and since simplicity is the thing this edition, I don't know if GW will go for that.

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Just make it so Conscripts don't fill compulsory troop slots, and give them the auxila regiment.

Problem is that Auxilia has no officers, so now they can't take orders, so you've effectively nerfed them and punished guard players. I do like the can't be used to fill a compulsory troops slot idea, but that smacks of 30k and since simplicity is the thing this edition, I don't know if GW will go for that.

 

 

That was the point.

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