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The "Trefoil" Legions

Space Wolves Salamanders Alpha Legion

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#26
Ishagu

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but Guilliman can and has died, fairly recently at the hands of the eldar actually.

true, he got rebooted fairly quickly thanks to eldar "god of death"-magic, but he did die.


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#27
TheRealMcCagh

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Grammaticus comes back to life exactly where he died in Vulkan Lives. And the girl in Vengeful Spirit seems to as well, sense she shows up on the ship leaving Molech after dying on the planet.

 

And Ark, that's kind of a strange argument to make. That would be like me saying I'm right about Vulkan because we haven't heard that's NOT why the Emperor took him aside. Or the Emperor was allergic to peanuts, simply because we have no instances of him saying he wasn't. Dante, Grimnar, and Calgar haven't proved to NOT be perpetuals either, but are we going to assume they are as well?

 

Isn't it a safer assumption to say they aren't until proven that they are, rather than they are perpetuals until proven that they are not?



#28
Ishagu

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Guilliman MIGHT actually be one now.
The girl you mention, Cirene Valenti or whatever her name is - she became one after being resurrected.

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#29
TheRealMcCagh

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No, not Cyrene (that was in Betrayer right?). I mean Aliha or something. The girl left on Molech to guard the gate and gets killed by Horus and co when they arrive. Later she is on the ship fleeing Molech with her foster family. She talks about hanging out with the Emperor pre-Molech and seems to know Grammaticus and Oll.

 

You're right that Cyrene becomes one after Erebus brings her back, and eventually is recruited by John Grammaticus



#30
Cerbero666

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No, not Cyrene (that was in Betrayer right?). I mean Aliha or something. The girl left on Molech to guard the gate and gets killed by Horus and co when they arrive. Later she is on the ship fleeing Molech with her foster family. She talks about hanging out with the Emperor pre-Molech and seems to know Grammaticus and Oll.

 

You're right that Cyrene becomes one after Erebus brings her back, and eventually is recruited by John Grammaticus

 

Alivia Sureka was the perpetual in Vengeful Spirit and Wolf Mother you are referring to, the one left in Molech by the Emperor to keep the gate to the Realm of Chaos.



#31
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Grammaticus comes back to life exactly where he died in Vulkan Lives. And the girl in Vengeful Spirit seems to as well, sense she shows up on the ship leaving Molech after dying on the planet.

And Ark, that's kind of a strange argument to make. That would be like me saying I'm right about Vulkan because we haven't heard that's NOT why the Emperor took him aside. Or the Emperor was allergic to peanuts, simply because we have no instances of him saying he wasn't. Dante, Grimnar, and Calgar haven't proved to NOT be perpetuals either, but are we going to assume they are as well?

Isn't it a safer assumption to say they aren't until proven that they are, rather than they are perpetuals until proven that they are not?

In most cases I would agree with you on that last part, except that you made the claim that he is not. All I was saying is how do you know he is not? We didn't know Vulkan was one until he actually died, and there was one death where he was dead for a lengthy period of time before coming back.

So I would say that we simply don't know, not make claims that he is or is not.

Regardless we have zero evidence to say that the Emperor planned a successor, and that if he did it would have been Vulkan. After all, he spent the most time with Horus, favored Horus for leadership positions, let Horus train several Primarchs personally, etc. He also made Horus the leader of the Great Crusade. Outside of legion command, what did he do for Vulkan that would signify him as an heir?

We also know know that of the Primarchs, Guilliman was the only one that maintained a large empire and was allowed to.

My theory is that they all had roles to play. Horus would have been the Emperors military successor, Pert would have been the architect, Guilliman the administrator, Sanguinius hope and inspiration, the promise, Magnus the controller of the webway, Vulkan the guardian, Manus the liaison to the Mechanicus (maybe even supplanting it), Kurze the enforcer, Lorgar the master of Doctrine, Dorn the fortifier, Alpharius the secret police, Fulgrim the... not so sure yet.

So I think heirarchy wise it would be The Emperor > Horus/ Council of Terra (with Malcador at its head) > Primarchs each slotted into a new role > everyone else.

Edited by Arkangilos, 13 September 2017 - 04:28 PM.

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#32
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Guilliman the administrator!? How romantic

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#33
TheRealMcCagh

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The only thing unique about Vulkan (apart from being a Perpetual) was the Emperor took a lot of time with him before he returned him to the Salamanders. Maybe Old Earth will give us some clues as to what that was about. As far as the successor business, that was just me spit balling about the Augustus to the Emperor's Caesar comment. I doubt we'll get anything from Black Library that indicated the Emperor was training a successor.

 

but hey, we don't have any evidence that he wasn't, amirite??  whistling.gif


Edited by TheRealMcCagh, 13 September 2017 - 05:07 PM.

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#34
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The only thing unique about Vulkan (apart from being a Perpetual) was the Emperor took a lot of time with him before he returned him to the Salamanders. Maybe Old Earth will give us some clues as to what that was about. As far as the successor business, that was just me spit balling about the Augustus to the Emperor's Caesar comment. I doubt we'll get anything from Black Library that indicated the Emperor was training a successor.

but hey, we don't have any evidence that he wasn't, amirite?? whistling.gif


lol, to that last thing you are totally missing my point about that. For what it's worth I don't think Guilliman was/is a perpetual, and I think that Vulkan is the only one (which I don't even like that he is). My point was that you can't say, "well Guilliman isn't one because he didn't come back to life when he died" simply because he hasn't died yet :P

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#35
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Yeah but he seemed to be making Horus + Council of Terra his successors, not Vulkan. Plus Guilliman seems to be the one engineered for statescraft


I disagree with the comment of Horus, from everything I have read it seems much more the Emperor groomed Horus to be Warmaster. The leader of the Great Crusade to unite the galaxy. But beyond that he had no purpose. Horus was a general unlike any of his brothers, ruthless, efficient and brutal. He was never someone who could rule a steady empire. After all Horus saw that he - and his sons - had no purpose once the Great Crusade was over, it was one of the things that turned him against his fathers vision.

It's amazing what fear of uselessness can do
Horus saw that if he and his sons were nothing but warriors there would be little place for them in the Galaxy, which is quite different "there was no place". He likely could have played a very successful part in running the Imperium, though it might have been something of a chore.

I'm also sure that the Emperor and at least some of the Primarchs gave thought to the possibility that there was life outside the Galaxy that might one day present a threat to the Imperium.

Edited by bluntblade, 13 September 2017 - 09:16 PM.

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#36
mhacdebhandia

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Guilliman's story, by the way, is already Augustus's. Adopted son of a great leader who's assassinated, defeats the assassins and builds a stronger empire on the foundations of what he inherited . . .

 

. . . then dies and it all turns to (relative) crap.



#37
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Yeah but he seemed to be making Horus + Council of Terra his successors, not Vulkan. Plus Guilliman seems to be the one engineered for statescraft


I disagree with the comment of Horus, from everything I have read it seems much more the Emperor groomed Horus to be Warmaster. The leader of the Great Crusade to unite the galaxy. But beyond that he had no purpose. Horus was a general unlike any of his brothers, ruthless, efficient and brutal. He was never someone who could rule a steady empire. After all Horus saw that he - and his sons - had no purpose once the Great Crusade was over, it was one of the things that turned him against his fathers vision.

It's amazing what fear of uselessness can do
Horus saw that if he and his sons were nothing but warriors there would be little place for them in the Galaxy, which is quite different "there was no place". He likely could have played a very successful part in running the Imperium, though it might have been something of a chore.

I'm also sure that the Emperor and at least some of the Primarchs gave thought to the possibility that there was life outside the Galaxy that might one day present a threat to the Imperium.

 

 

In the Dante novel,  it states Sangy had visions of a great maw that was eating planets (or something to that effect). I hint to Tyranids maybe?


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#38
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Yeah but he seemed to be making Horus + Council of Terra his successors, not Vulkan. Plus Guilliman seems to be the one engineered for statescraft


I disagree with the comment of Horus, from everything I have read it seems much more the Emperor groomed Horus to be Warmaster. The leader of the Great Crusade to unite the galaxy. But beyond that he had no purpose. Horus was a general unlike any of his brothers, ruthless, efficient and brutal. He was never someone who could rule a steady empire. After all Horus saw that he - and his sons - had no purpose once the Great Crusade was over, it was one of the things that turned him against his fathers vision.

It's amazing what fear of uselessness can do
Horus saw that if he and his sons were nothing but warriors there would be little place for them in the Galaxy, which is quite different "there was no place". He likely could have played a very successful part in running the Imperium, though it might have been something of a chore.

I'm also sure that the Emperor and at least some of the Primarchs gave thought to the possibility that there was life outside the Galaxy that might one day present a threat to the Imperium.

 

 

In the Dante novel,  it states Sangy had visions of a great maw that was eating planets (or something to that effect). I hint to Tyranids maybe?

 

 

Well after Pharos we know the events of the HH are directly responsible for the arrival of the Tyranids, so why not


 

Probably heretical due to the Plague Zombie problem springing up in the 41st Millenium.
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#39
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Theoretically, keeping the Primarchs around and keeping their Legions around are technically two separate things.

 

Meaning the Emperor could have planned on keeping all 18 Primarchs alive after the GC, but only keeping a select number of the actual legions. Also meaning reasons for keeping the Sallies around would seemingly have more to do with them than with their Primarch (in comparing Vulkan to the strengths of Horus or Guilliman).

 

My own speculation would be: Salamanders are loyal and stable, and their living arrangement on Nocturne gave them more and better interactions with standard humans than likely existed amongst the other Legions.

 

As such, the Salamanders seem like possibly the most stable (i.e. least dangerous) Legion to be hanging around in relative peace-times. The Wolves excel at executioners, and the Alpha Legion at subterfuge, but perhaps the Sallies were seen as best fit for something that would have required a longer-standing presence amidst other Imperial forces, such as in regards to a pro-longed xenos invasion or natural/warp disaster.

 

Most of the other legions are portrayed with flaws that are more obviously dangerous if they were left unoccupied by war - such as the psychic abilities of the genetically unstable Thousand Sons or the zealotry of the Word Bearers - or possibly with Primarchs that would have been culled (and thus for security measures leading to the culling of their legions), such as Angron and Kurze.

 

While a number of legions, like the White Scars and Sons of Horus, don't necessarily display any such qualities to make them dangerous in peace-time, it might be that nevertheless they're simply not as geared towards calm as the Salamanders?


Edited by Zuvassin, 15 September 2017 - 08:00 PM.


#40
TheRealMcCagh

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Theoretically, keeping the Primarchs around and keeping their Legions around are technically two separate things.

 

Meaning the Emperor could have planned on keeping all 18 Primarchs alive after the GC, but only keeping a select number of the actual legions. Also meaning reasons for keeping the Sallies around would seemingly have more to do with them than with their Primarch (in comparing Vulkan to the strengths of Horus or Guilliman).

 

My own speculation would be: Salamanders are loyal and stable, and their living arrangement on Nocturne gave them more and better interactions with standard humans than likely existed amongst the other Legions.

 

As such, the Salamanders seem like possibly the most stable (i.e. least dangerous) Legion to be hanging around in relative peace-times. The Wolves excel at executioners, and the Alpha Legion at subterfuge, but perhaps the Sallies were seen as best fit for something that would have required a longer-standing presence amidst other Imperial forces, such as in regards to a pro-longed xenos invasion or natural/warp disaster.

 

Most of the other legions are portrayed with flaws that are more obviously dangerous if they were left unoccupied by war - such as the psychic abilities of the genetically unstable Thousand Sons or the zealotry of the Word Bearers - or possibly with Primarchs that would have been culled (and thus for security measures leading to the culling of their legions), such as Angron and Kurze.

 

While a number of legions, like the White Scars and Sons of Horus, don't necessarily display any such qualities to make them dangerous in peace-time, it might be that nevertheless they're simply not as geared towards calm as the Salamanders?

 

 

If the Salamanders were set aside during the formation of their legion, than do their lives on Nocturne matter? This would have been before all that, and before they had there good natured reputation. Artellus suggests that the Salamanders were on the path towards self destruction until Vulkan saved them. It seems like that's the legion that was kept more secret, not the compassionate, red eyed, black skinned Salamanders we know today.







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