Stratagems and the Ultramarines

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, the TFC has one advantage. It can shoot hidden units and put pressure on things like Biovores, for example. With Guilliman that is decent pressure.

[garreth]

You have to pay for the Techmarine though?

 

Either way, it's not a TERRIBLE unit. It's just that it's competing with much better units. A Devastator squad is cheaper armed with Heavy Bolters, does more damage through more shots, has a Signum to boost 1 weapon and the Armourium Cherub too. It can be made more survivable by adding bodies which adds slightly to close ranged firepower.

 

Lastly the Devastator squad can split fire effectively.

 

I get you might like the model which is a fair enough reason to take a Thunderfire Cannon but frankly it is totally outclassed.

 

I use TFC in my home-sitting part alongside predators/whirlwinds/drednoughts. Cheap techmarine then can repair predators, while TFC itself can hit enemy units devastators can't even reach. I agree that alone TFC is a bit overpriced (when techmarine has nothing to do). And agree that Devastators is a great unit now - at last it's reasonable thing to mix weapons.

[Captain Idaho]

Just had a thought about something I never mentioned earlier! I'll add it to the compilation.

 

Honour the Chapter - you can consolidate into a fresh enemy unit after destroying a unit and attack that separate unit. Sounds obvious but the application of this Stratagem can enable you to roll up a gunline or what have you when otherwise a foe might fall back.

[MeltaRange]

I don't see how Linebreaker Bombardment is just brushed aside as rubbish.  I actually think it quite powerful.  ~45% chance of doing 3d3 mortal wounds to a character you really want dead but can't be targeted conventionally because of bubble wrap? (utilizing the re-roll stratagem if necessary)

 

It's absolutely deadly against armies that utilize stacking auras.  I am completely on board the hype train.

[Captain Idaho]

I regard it as rubbish for the following reasons:

 

1) You need to take 3 Vindicators minimum to get the most out of it yet if you have 2 it's a dead Stratagem.

 

2) Even with expending ANOTHER Command Point for a reroll for damage it's unlikely to hit any character, whilst multiple characters are hit on a 5+.

 

3) Against any unit less than 10 models, you're only hitting half the time.

 

4) Against multiple wounds, non-character targets you are better off doing D6 damage with D3 shots with all the tanks.

 

5) Against units with 10 or more models you're better off hitting them with 3D6 shots.

 

6) Linebreaker Bombardment does not benefit from any of our own auras.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's not terrible to try and nuke some characters but you'll be lucky to hit more than 1 anyway unless there's a lot of them and why take 3 vehicles just to use that Stratagem when it's so situational.

 

It should have been something like +3 shots to each tank, auto hit non-flyers or something.

[Brother Captain Ed]

Listen to Idaho! Save you, he can!

[Bremon]

Totally agreed, coming back to the game and deciding on marines, Vindicators were a favourite model of mine and I wanted to get one or two, after reading the book I now want 0 and the stratagem reinforces the idea that Vindicators are better at the store than on my project table. Killshot, sure, I can get behind it, it actually seems like it can kill something, linebreaker doesn't have enough oomph to break through the enemy line.

[MeltaRange]

I regard it as rubbish for the following reasons:

 

1) You need to take 3 Vindicators minimum to get the most out of it yet if you have 2 it's a dead Stratagem.

 

2) Even with expending ANOTHER Command Point for a reroll for damage it's unlikely to hit any character, whilst multiple characters are hit on a 5+.

 

3) Against any unit less than 10 models, you're only hitting half the time.

 

4) Against multiple wounds, non-character targets you are better off doing D6 damage with D3 shots with all the tanks.

 

5) Against units with 10 or more models you're better off hitting them with 3D6 shots.

 

6) Linebreaker Bombardment does not benefit from any of our own auras.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's not terrible to try and nuke some characters but you'll be lucky to hit more than 1 anyway unless there's a lot of them and why take 3 vehicles just to use that Stratagem when it's so situational.

 

It should have been something like +3 shots to each tank, auto hit non-flyers or something.

 

Good points Captain and thanks for the response.  In the spirit of debate/devils advocacy, I present my counterpoints:

 

1) Can't argue with that.  You have to buy in to make it work and it's kind of a gimmick, no doubt.  Though personally I think that Vindicators are a pretty good deal.  I know they get a lot of hate around these parts, but they are cheaper than a Pred with a Twin Lascannon, with similar firepower but arguably better duality.  I also rate the T8 on the vindicator a lot more than T7.  Plus, as you stated, it's not awful to just shoot with the Vindicators, so if they take one out, just do that and use CPs for other things.

 

2) I suck at math, but I was under the impression that getting a 5+ with a reroll is actually slightly greater than 50%.  (like 56%)  I could be very wrong though.  I'm not saying it's "reliable" but it's one of those things - can your opponent afford to let you potentially do 3d3 mortal wounds to a vital buffing character, or do they still have to plan around it, just in case?  Against certain army builds it's their #1 target priority and only ~400 points of my army.

 

3) Agree, it's only a chance...but still, if you hit, 3d3 mortal wounds if it works!  And that's for each unit in the radius!  Mortal wounds carry over, so it's valuable against tough, multi-wound targets (bye invulnerable saves) and multiple single wound units alike.

 

4) Under many circumstances, you are indeed correct.  You are not forced to use the Stratagem so you could simply fire with the Vindicators standard guns as the situation presents itself.  Perhaps I'll (try to) do some math to flush this out.  Firing at something with a 2+ in cover, or a good invul, and either moving/not moving the Vindicators, or having -1 to hit for other reasons (hard to hit, raven guard, ghostkeel) would make a difference.  In any case, your point is that it's not optimal vs most single targets and I would have to agree with that point overall.  However, it does allow you to bypass in-game mechanics like cloud of flies or by targeting bubble wrapped characters, which is hard to quantify mathematically but can be game-breaking.

 

5) It may be 3d6 or it may not since you shoot them one at a time.  If you shoot with one and it reduces them below 5 you next shots will be d3.  But a valid point.  Can't really argue with it.

 

6) Correct, but as stated above, it is also not affected by defensive auras either or the -1 to hit for moving and shooting a Heavy weapon, or decreasing BS based on wounds taken.  It's a straight up coin flip.  Against certain army builds though it can be a straight up game winner.

 

 

Overall, yes, it's something you need to scheme and build for...but at the same time I think that in the current meta (at least mine) the fact you can snipe characters for a 56% chance at doing 6 mortal wounds on average really ruins people's game plans.  Or at least forces them out of their comfort zone if they don't want to take that chance.  Forces them to deploy different, or forces them to take the 1st turn in an objective heavy game where the 2nd turn might be better.  Gives me a psychological advantage.  For those reasons, I think it's ace.  But at the same time, I can absolutely concede the points you made and sometimes it will be either unusable or a complete dud.

[Captain Idaho]

Good post. I'm working now but I'll have a think over your points and get back to this.

 

It's actually something to consider, psychological impact. After all, just the threat of such an attack is present and thus cannot be ignored.

 

P.s. I'm no math-witch! I went with your own figure of 45%!

 

I leave the techno-sorcery to the likes of others!

[Kallas]

54.8% chance to hit a 5+ including a reroll. So slightly more likely to happen than not.

 

Linebreaker Bombardment seems really powerful, the main issue for me, personally, is the investment of 405+ points in Vindicators which (IMO) aren't particularly great on their own merits, even with the Codex price decrease.

 

There's something to be said for T8, 11 wounds and a 3+ save but at 24" range and BS3/4/5+, possibly with the moving Heavy penalty, and only d3/6 shots each they seem lacklustre. Having used an Annihilator/2x Destructor Predator wing to utilise Killshot that's where my anti vehicle/monster investment goes while still packing in good horde trimming.

 

*shrug*

 

I love Vindicators, but I'm glad (from a gameplay perspective) I haven't spent any money on any right now.

[Captain Idaho]

I love Vindicators too. :(

[Lord Blackwood]

Auspex scan single habdedly won me the first slow grow league game I played today.

 

Rust stalkers popped up in my backfield hoping to tie up my predator and ended up being crippled by hellblasters advancing along with it.

 

It felt very powerful especially with the warlord trait giving me one of the command points back.

[crazyterran]

I used to run 3 Vindicators back in 5th, with three tactical squads half loaded in Rhinos half holding objectives, with a librarian up front to cast Null Zone like a boss.

 

Fond memories of Vindicators blowing away giant clumps of Terminators. Good times.

[greatcrusade08]

id prefer 3 predators with lascannons to 3 shorter ranged vindicators. the predators stratagem is really quite good too

[Captain Idaho]

In response to MeltaRange's post that made me think, I will post this for review for folk before adding it to the Codex.

 

Vindicators are tough. In an army with multiple armoured targets, 3 of them could be quite a problem to try and crack. Lascannons don't much care about T8 but Missile Launchers and S7 spam does.

 

The threat of Linebreaker Bombardment combined with multiple armoured threats (Sternguard in a Rhino, a couple Contemptors running towards the opponent...) can be a potentially powerful combination. It's niche, VERY niche and I still hold that we should skip this Stratagem, but this needs playtesting.

 

Forcing an opponent to spread out for fear of fatal clumping and hitting just 2 hidden characters out of say 4 and a couple units can be worthwhile if you already have the Vindicators. Which is the problem. I just don't see many armies paying those points on a weak tank just for perhaps 1 or 2 uses of this Stratagem.

[Stoic Raptor]

When I am setting up for a game, I always lay out the Stratagem cards that I think I might use, based on what I have and what my opponent brings.

Auspex Scan is always among those, because I see how powerful it can be against Deep-Striking units.

 

Surprisingly, though, I've never gotten the opportunity to actually use it - last game I played, my opponent landed his jump troops but I was already in his backfield and had him boxed in.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah if the threat of Auspex Scan prevents someone from getting in close then it's done its job.

[MeltaRange]

In response to MeltaRange's post that made me think, I will post this for review for folk before adding it to the Codex.

 

Vindicators are tough. In an army with multiple armoured targets, 3 of them could be quite a problem to try and crack. Lascannons don't much care about T8 but Missile Launchers and S7 spam does.

 

The threat of Linebreaker Bombardment combined with multiple armoured threats (Sternguard in a Rhino, a couple Contemptors running towards the opponent...) can be a potentially powerful combination. It's niche, VERY niche and I still hold that we should skip this Stratagem, but this needs playtesting.

 

Forcing an opponent to spread out for fear of fatal clumping and hitting just 2 hidden characters out of say 4 and a couple units can be worthwhile if you already have the Vindicators. Which is the problem. I just don't see many armies paying those points on a weak tank just for perhaps 1 or 2 uses of this Stratagem.

 

I think that's all fair and sums it up nicely.  The strength of the LBB stratagem lies is that it bypasses game mechanics like targeting characters, minuses to hit/reduction to BS from wounds, invulnerable saves, etc.*  You're adding some tactical depth to the army rather than just "+1 to wound" or "reroll hits".  I think that my meta may have a bit more 'clumping in aura' play, which may be why I love it. (try this against Tau suits + drone spam...you'll be happy...hint: roll to damage the drone units first!)  I wonder if many people in the "Ultramarine" forum have played AGAINST a Bobby G list and not just WITH him 

 

I really like the suggestion of combo'ing this with Contemptors.  I will have to try that (with proxies)

 

*not to derail the thread, but RAW, you can do things like retreat from combat, advance, use smoke launchers, etc. and still use LBB! (that's how I read it at least)

[Prot]

For me it's definitely Auspex scan and Scions. Those two have been game changers.

 

One time shots: The moral wound heavy bolter

[Stoic Raptor]

I used Hellfire rounds on a Thunderwolf, to great effect.  A normal salvo from an HB probably wouldn't have killed it, but T5 and a 3+ are immaterial to mortal wounds. :D

[Captain Idaho]

Those Hellfire Shells are a gem in my eyes. Putting D3 Mortal Wounds on any target in range is just yum.

[TrexPushups]

Hellfire & flakk missile firing each turn are the tip of my anti-daemon primarch plan.

 

2d3 mortal wounds a turn until my devastators die are exactly what I need to lower the difficulty of finishing those two off.

[Brother Captain Ed]

Yeah. The more I use Hellfire Shells the more I like them. It's great for finishing off vehicles and hitting difficult to wound models. If nothing else, losing 1-3 guns and/or swords can really neuter some units. Of you can catch a character with it, it can be the difference between a couple rounds of close combat that you may lose and finishing it off in one.

 

Hellfire's bother Flakk, however, I am less impressed with. Flank Missiles are still good...just more niche.

 

For starters, you give up a krak missile. Against anything that isn't Supersonic, this may not be worth it. Against many things that fly, the reasonably certain d6 is better that the mostly certain d3. Surprisingly, it is best against infantry models with fly that are hiding in cover.

 

They are both solid stratagems. I wish I had more heavy bolters for some redundancy.

[Stoic Raptor]

I wish I'd had that stratagem when I played Crimson Fists in 7th.  Naturally, heavy bolters were my weapon of choice for tactical squads and even full Devastator squads.  They were a bit sub-optimal against vehicles but that wouldn't be an issue with this stratagem.

[TrexPushups]

Yeah. The more I use Hellfire Shells the more I like them. It's great for finishing off vehicles and hitting difficult to wound models. If nothing else, losing 1-3 guns and/or swords can really neuter some units. Of you can catch a character with it, it can be the difference between a couple rounds of close combat that you may lose and finishing it off in one.

Hellfire's bother Flakk, however, I am less impressed with. Flank Missiles are still good...just more niche.

For starters, you give up a krak missile. Against anything that isn't Supersonic, this may not be worth it. Against many things that fly, the reasonably certain d6 is better that the mostly certain d3. Surprisingly, it is best against infantry models with fly that are hiding in cover.

They are both solid stratagems. I wish I had more heavy bolters for some redundancy.

That is why I have 2 units of scouts with a heavy bolter in addition to one heavy bolter in my devastators squad.

 

If something in your army needs hellfirimg I want to be able to make it happen.