FW Dreads vs Hellbrutes

[SoulGlaive]

Have you found the FW walker options vs the humble hellbrutes?

Right now I don't have any walkers but I want to add 2 contemptors (purely for austhetic purposes) to my collection and wasn't sure if the additional points for the hellforged options were worth it in an already pricey force.

The leviathans look great and I would also like to have one of those eventually.

What load puts work best? Andti horde? Or anti Tank? Are other platforms better, predators?

Appreciate any insight.

[Zodd1888]

It's a hard call. The FW weapons are significantly better in a lot of situations. If you're going to use them for Anti-Horde then I recommend FW for sure, otherwise Las/Missle Helbrutes do just fine for the cost.

[JamesI]

I bought a Osiron contemptor to use as a hellforged contemptor.  The Helforged is really good.  The Invul save, ability to heal in combat and some better shooting attacks are worth the extra points.

 

Now, if we get the ability to take Psyker helbrutes in our codex, that will of course change my opinion.

[Prot]

For me the only FW type of walker I like is the Decimator. The Soulburner truly brings something unique to the table that the Helbrute can't.

[The Yncarne]

I've played with a helbrute my mast two games. It does nothing, even with fire frenzy, until it reaches hand to hand. By then it's down to one or two wounds. Then it punches the enemy for 2-3 phases before succumbing. I am playing with a RT-era dread with plasma gun/cannon - not exactly a great combo in my current list.

 

I've got my first decimator with dual butcher cannons nearly painted. I've also got an osirin waiting to be painted.

[Prot]

My Helbrute usually does work... but it's pure las/Missile. It rarely moves, and usually it attracts a fair amount of Deep Strike attention.

[Raven1]

Currently I feel like helbrute should come packaged in two ways. Las/missile or two helbrute fists preferably brought in with the FW Index dreadclaw (although at that point hellforged options would probably be better). With traits affecting Helbrutes it certainly breathes some life into them.

[Paladin777]

I second that. I have 3 of the old dread models with plasma cannons and a close combat weapon of some sort and I don't think I will run them with that load out. The plasma cannon honestly looks like it just sucks.

 

I do think that if you're going to run a close quarters dread a fist and a scourge would be better than 2 fists...

[Prot]

Has it been clarified if a "Helbrute" reference for a special rule (IE: the Strategem) can be used by FW "Helbrutes" or just the CSM Helbrute model?

[Khannis]

Has it been clarified if a "Helbrute" reference for a special rule (IE: the Strategem) can be used by FW "Helbrutes" or just the CSM Helbrute model?

Yes, all the Dreadnoughts we can take are always Helbrutes and thus always benefit from the keyword.

[Prot]

That includes a dual Petard Decimator... ? Wow. I may have to paint mine then. Firing twice with that is... really juicy.

[Khannis]

That includes a dual Petard Decimator... ? Wow. I may have to paint mine then. Firing twice with that is... really juicy.

Unfortunately not the Decimator, as it's not a Dreadnought, but a merely daemons bound within a walker platform. The keyword has been given to all "true" Dreads (walkers controlled by an ancient astartes).

 

But it does apply to double Ribaudkin Leviathan, so... Mortal wounds galore!

Edited September 19, 2017 by Khannis

[Nym]

 

Yes, all the Dreadnoughts we can take are always Helbrutes and thus always benefit from the keyword.

 

Unfortunately, the Fire Frenzy stratagem works with the unit 'Helbrute', not with the keyword 'HELBRUTE'. That means it only works with the Codex:CSM Helbrute, not Forgeworld units with the HELBRUTE keyword.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Nym

[SoulGlaive]

Great input here, thanks.

How do they compare as fire platforms when compared with Predators and the like?

[Nym]

How do they compare as fire platforms when compared with Predators and the like?

 

I can only speak for regular Helbrutes, not FW.

 

Helbrute with Twin Lascannon and Missile launcher deals 0.024 damage per point against T7 3+sv compared to 0.027 damage per point for the DiscoPred (2x LC and Twin LC).

 

However, the Fire frenzy stratagem basically doubles their damage output for a mere 1CP, which is awesome. And the Helbrute also has 1/6 chance of going berzerk and firing during the opponent phase, which is always nice.

 

The Predator however has ~40% more staying power thanks to his 11 wounds.

[Khannis]

 

 

Unfortunately, the Fire Frenzy stratagem works with the unit 'Helbrute', not with the keyword 'HELBRUTE'. That means it only works with the Codex:CSM Helbrute, not Forgeworld units with the HELBRUTE keyword.

 

I'm not really sure if that's intended, but I double checked the wording and it does seem to only affect the base Helbrute, unlike Legion traits, which clearly affect the keyword.

[Prot]

 

Unfortunately, the Fire Frenzy stratagem works with the unit 'Helbrute', not with the keyword 'HELBRUTE'. That means it only works with the Codex:CSM Helbrute, not Forgeworld units with the HELBRUTE keyword.

 

I'm not really sure if that's intended, but I double checked the wording and it does seem to only affect the base Helbrute, unlike Legion traits, which clearly affect the keyword.

Okay so that's what I originally thought and then I thought I missed an FAQ.... but apparently not! Ah well it might be too strong to go beyond what's in the CSM codex titled 'Helbrute '.

[Skerr]

Can any of the FW contemptors be in a 1000 sons detachment?

 

I like the aesthetic for 1000 sons better than Helbrutes.

[Raven1]

Can any of the FW contemptors be in a 1000 sons detachment?

 

I like the aesthetic for 1000 sons better than Helbrutes.

 

In the FAQ the only thing that can't use the Thousand Sons legion keyword are rapier batteries and the Chaos Hellwright

 

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Downloads#warhammer40k

[Khannis]

Yes, and the aesthetics are MUCH better, especially the TS Legion Contemptors, absolute beauties. The fleshy, mutated brute look doesn't really suit the fluff at all.

[Skerr]

Thanks, totally agree. Will keep my eye on them

[Sonoftherubric21]

I actually use both, except for "Helbrutes"  i use the Forgeworld Castlleax Achea.  Of course I am not shredding a FW model that expensive so they are stuck WYSIWIG with fist and heavy bolter or fist and plasma-cannon. (and everyone i play against loves that concept as its an easy "counts as" that looks great and is very thematic)

 

Ignis and Credence get some play time in my lists ;-) 

I agree with the above; as "rubric dreads" aren't a thing....yet..... and the fleshy bits don't jive with me and the fluff. 

 

The Thousand Sons Contemptors from Forgeworld are lovely and look great, so they see lots of play time, I personally when using the Forgeworld dread in my chaos thousand sons go for the duel-Kheres build, I find that "volume" is our biggest issue on the table with tanks being the second.  Helps immeasurably with Hordes, toss out a prescience and a warp time and you can shred a horde in short order using the bugger, and mop up with Rubricae. 

 

The next is AT; so my other option is a Conversion beamer, or fist/kheres for getting up the field and beating the tar outta something.  and thanks to the relative cheapness of the basic helbrute; I really dont care if it gets killed. 

 

And as with everyone here; Psychic dreadnoughts are a thing I really hope we get when our codex (Or when forgeworld) finally gets around to updating us in 8th with our dex. 

[Galron]

My Deredeo is flipping great with a Butcher Array. Usually does massive damage every game. Plus since I play an undivided legion I give it MoS simply so I can have it "fire frenzy" for double shots. Even better when I have a lord nearby to reroll 1s to hit. Does the distance game great, its twin heavy flamers have yet to roll higher than a 2 for numbers of hits and that includes command rerolls.

[Khannis]

My Deredeo is flipping great with a Butcher Array. Usually does massive damage every game. Plus since I play an undivided legion I give it MoS simply so I can have it "fire frenzy" for double shots. Even better when I have a lord nearby to reroll 1s to hit. Does the distance game great, its twin heavy flamers have yet to roll higher than a 2 for numbers of hits and that includes command rerolls.

That's the thing, played a couple games with one and loved it too, but I'm thinking of putting the Malignatas Saker on it instead, since the Greater Havoc Launcher does a decent job of infantry killing, and, while I have a double multi-melta contemptor for dedicated AT duties, it's often focused a lot, especially in the case of Land Raider equivalents, who just want to kill him quickly, for obvious reasons. This has left me starving for anti-tank more than once, since barring some pretty lucky rolls Smite just doesn't do enough.

 

What you guys think of the Saker? The wound mechanic is a little wonky, but it seems to pretty reliable.

[Galloway]

I actually use both, except for "Helbrutes"  i use the Forgeworld Castlleax Achea.  Of course I am not shredding a FW model that expensive so they are stuck WYSIWIG with fist and heavy bolter or fist and plasma-cannon. (and everyone i play against loves that concept as its an easy "counts as" that looks great and is very thematic)

 

Ignis and Credence get some play time in my lists ;-) 

 

I agree with the above; as "rubric dreads" aren't a thing....yet..... and the fleshy bits don't jive with me and the fluff. 

 

The Thousand Sons Contemptors from Forgeworld are lovely and look great, so they see lots of play time, I personally when using the Forgeworld dread in my chaos thousand sons go for the duel-Kheres build, I find that "volume" is our biggest issue on the table with tanks being the second.  Helps immeasurably with Hordes, toss out a prescience and a warp time and you can shred a horde in short order using the bugger, and mop up with Rubricae. 

 

The next is AT; so my other option is a Conversion beamer, or fist/kheres for getting up the field and beating the tar outta something.  and thanks to the relative cheapness of the basic helbrute; I really dont care if it gets killed. 

 

And as with everyone here; Psychic dreadnoughts are a thing I really hope we get when our codex (Or when forgeworld) finally gets around to updating us in 8th with our dex. 

Would love to see any pictures of these you have. Been planning on getting a pair of Castellax-Achea and an Osirion once I get through my Call of Chaos vow.