Inexorable Advance & Forge World Hellbrutes

[Arkhanist]

 

 If you're trying to say that bold print makes something a keyword I hope you know that you're making a very big stretch especially considering the fact "unit" is still printed. 

 

Keywords are a bold uppercase font. That's literally how they are on the datasheets. They are also clearly indicated this way when referred to in the 'keywords' section of the rulebook (pg 175), and page 5 of the designer's commentary that explain how keywords work. Throughout the books, when a rule, relic, strategem etc etc is referring to a keyword, it will use the bold uppercase font.

 

The 'errata' section of the FAQs supercede the rules. They are one of the official documents that do so. Regardless of what random GW employees say or don't say in a throwaway comment, it's the published rule book, codexes, FAQs, Chapter Approved etc that make up the written rules.

 

"Although we strive to ensure that our rules are perfect, sometimes mistakes do creep in, or the intent of a rule isn’t as clear as it might be. These documents collect amendments to the rules..."

And of course, the errata literally instructs you to change the wording of a rule. So forget what it says in your codex, and replace it with what it says in the most recent relevent errata.

(the complete collection of the most current can be found here: https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/)

 

With inexorable advance, having replaced the first line as instructed it now states: "If your army is Battle-forged, all INFANTRY and HELBRUTE units in DEATH GUARD Detachments gain this ability."

 

First, is the unit part of a DEATH GUARD Detachment? Does the unit also have the INFANTRY or HELBRUTE keyword? Then it gains the ability Inexorable Advance.

(interpreted as instructed in the rules, pg 175, a HELBRUTE unit is a unit with the HELBRUTE keyword, just as an INFANTRY unit is a unit with the INFANTRY keyword )

 

Fire Frenzy says "...just before a Helbrute shoots. If that Helbrute did not move..."

 

No bolded all-caps, but lowercase with a first letter capital, then it's not referring to units with that keyword, but a datasheet with that name. This is the convention throughout.

 

So unless they errata it, DEATH GUARD detachment units with the HELBRUTE keyword (but not from a Helbrute datasheet) get inexorable advance, but cannot use the fire frenzy strategem. This includes Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnoughts, Hellforged Deredeo Dreadnoughts and Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnoughts, as they added the HELBRUTE keyword to those units in the errata for Imperial Armour Index: Forces of Chaos - but they do not have Helbrute as part of their datasheet name.

[Azekai]

That's one way to interpret it. The way I see it, all chaos dreads *are* hellbrutes. That is what having the keyword means- if they weren't hellbrutes, they wouldn't have the keyword. Ergo, they can use the stratagem. 
 

[Arkhanist]

In the AoS FAQ:

 

"Q: How do you determine what models and units make up a warscroll battalion? When is it based on a keyword and when is it a unit name?

A: When a warscroll battalion is referring to a keyword, it appears in Keyword Bold. Otherwise, it is referring to the name of a unit."

 

Clearly they need to spell it out in the 40k FAQ as well, because having it work the exact same way in the 40k books, and having all the explanations of keywords in 40k refer to them in keyword bold, and having the ACTUAL keywords in 'keyword bold' really means that in 40k there's actually no difference between KEYWORD and keyword.

 

Interpret it however you like, but in the rules as written, there is a clear and distinct difference between unit names and keywords and they are not interchangable.

[SkimaskMohawk]

That's one way to interpret it. The way I see it, all chaos dreads *are* hellbrutes. That is what having the keyword means- if they weren't hellbrutes, they wouldn't have the keyword. Ergo, they can use the stratagem.

 

You see it wrong

[Azekai]

 

That's one way to interpret it. The way I see it, all chaos dreads *are* hellbrutes. That is what having the keyword means- if they weren't hellbrutes, they wouldn't have the keyword. Ergo, they can use the stratagem.

You see it wrong

 

Cool. I'll enjoy my double-firing hellbrutes with or without your or the general internet's approval.

[Plaguecaster]

Good luck finding an opponent who will let you play it as that as it's usually hard enough finding an opponent who accepts FW let alone using a strategem on them which has clear doubt about if it is possible or not

 

Not trying to snarky or anything as you may accept it as such but not everyone you play against will

[Azekai]

My gaming circle plays it as applying to all hellbrutes, and I don't game with randos, generally speaking.

Feel free to call the 40k police on us!

[Ishagu]

I think this applies to all hellbrutes.

[DuskRaider]

 

That's one way to interpret it. The way I see it, all chaos dreads *are* hellbrutes. That is what having the keyword means- if they weren't hellbrutes, they wouldn't have the keyword. Ergo, they can use the stratagem.

You see it wrong

 

 

Wow, that was very un-Canadian. 

 

I see it as applying to all Helbrutes and I thought GW had touched on this. It may have been on their FB, but I guess since that's not an official FAQ it's all up to interpretation and player's consent, so... YMMV

[radionausea]

Inexorable Advance applies to all units with the HELBRUTE keyword. Fire Frenzy only applies to the Helbrute unit.

[Ishagu]

Yeah the stratagem is only for the actual unit called Hellbrute.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

That's one way to interpret it. The way I see it, all chaos dreads *are* hellbrutes. That is what having the keyword means- if they weren't hellbrutes, they wouldn't have the keyword. Ergo, they can use the stratagem.

You see it wrong

Wow, that was very un-Canadian.

 

I see it as applying to all Helbrutes and I thought GW had touched on this. It may have been on their FB, but I guess since that's not an official FAQ it's all up to interpretation and player's consent, so... YMMV

Country based stereotypes get kind of tiring don't you think? Kind of like carefully explaining aspects of the rules, with pictures, and then being told that I just made it up and I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

The way I see it, everyone who says 'Helbrute' refers to every type of them (as opposed to the keyword that does the same thing) are the people who need to be supporting their claims with some sort of rules based proof.

[DuskRaider]

 

 

 

That's one way to interpret it. The way I see it, all chaos dreads *are* hellbrutes. That is what having the keyword means- if they weren't hellbrutes, they wouldn't have the keyword. Ergo, they can use the stratagem.

You see it wrong

Wow, that was very un-Canadian.

 

I see it as applying to all Helbrutes and I thought GW had touched on this. It may have been on their FB, but I guess since that's not an official FAQ it's all up to interpretation and player's consent, so... YMMV

Country based stereotypes get kind of tiring don't you think? Kind of like carefully explaining aspects of the rules, with pictures, and then being told that I just made it up and I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

The way I see it, everyone who says 'Helbrute' refers to every type of them (as opposed to the keyword that does the same thing) are the people who need to be supporting their claims with some sort of rules based proof.

 

 

Get a grip and lighten up. Besides, as far as I've seen Inexorable Advance does refer to the Keyword and not just the unit. Unfortunately, the only way we will get an irrefutable answer is for GW or FW to address is themselves and put it to rest once and for all.

[Charlo]

It's in black and white in the rules...

 

Inexorable Advance affects all units with the HELBRUTE keyword.

 

Fire Frenzy is only for "Helbrute" the unit, as it is not bold.

 

By trying to fire frenzy with a Contemptor, Leviathan or Deredeo etc you are cheating. Plain and simple.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

 

 

That's one way to interpret it. The way I see it, all chaos dreads *are* hellbrutes. That is what having the keyword means- if they weren't hellbrutes, they wouldn't have the keyword. Ergo, they can use the stratagem.

You see it wrong

Wow, that was very un-Canadian.

 

I see it as applying to all Helbrutes and I thought GW had touched on this. It may have been on their FB, but I guess since that's not an official FAQ it's all up to interpretation and player's consent, so... YMMV

Country based stereotypes get kind of tiring don't you think? Kind of like carefully explaining aspects of the rules, with pictures, and then being told that I just made it up and I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

The way I see it, everyone who says 'Helbrute' refers to every type of them (as opposed to the keyword that does the same thing) are the people who need to be supporting their claims with some sort of rules based proof.

Get a grip and lighten up. Besides, as far as I've seen Inexorable Advance does refer to the Keyword and not just the unit. Unfortunately, the only way we will get an irrefutable answer is for GW or FW to address is themselves and put it to rest once and for all.

The argument is whether Fire frenzy applies to all types, with an old version of IA being used as "evidence" to support the argument of yes...not whether IA applies to Helbrutes

[TURBULENCE]

This is an argument if semantics, can we just drop it please. If buddy and his friends want to house rule that fire frenzy can be used on anything with the helbrute keyword, good for him. If he refuses to believe what we all know is the correct use of the rules, that's his problem not ours. As long as he plays in his circle it doesn't matter.

 

I'd rather, you know, discuss how IA effects our tactics with helbrute units over are regular chaos compatriots

[philsminions]

Just saw this posted on FB.....so it MUST be true?

 

[DuskRaider]

I'm willing to accept that answer.

[Bulwyf]

That official answer settles the argument. You can use IA for FW dreads but not fire frenzy.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I'm willing to accept that answer.

 

I would be willing to accept it to..

 

I just remember when someone on Warhammer Community FBs answered that Zerkers and Noise Marines were not going to be "troops" after the CSM codex was released.. and then the FAQ released for the CSM codex did the opposite. You may have a point in that it's as official as it's going to be, for now. 

[DuskRaider]

 

I'm willing to accept that answer.

 

I would be willing to accept it to..

 

I just remember when someone on Warhammer Community FBs answered that Zerkers and Noise Marines were not going to be "troops" after the CSM codex was released.. and then the FAQ released for the CSM codex did the opposite. You may have a point in that it's as official as it's going to be, for now. 

 

 

Exactly... I'm actually a little surprised GW hasn't officially touched on this subject. Truthfully, I don't really give a damn about Fire Frenzy, I mainly commented in here concerning Inexorable Advance which definitely effects FW Dreadnoughts as they are Helbrute sub-classes. Oddly enough, the Decimator isn't.

[Charlo]

Because it's a Daemon Engine, not a sarcophagus with a Marine interred.