Arguments against Guilliman's new order

[Azekai]

 

You could make the argument that without Guilliman's return, the Daemon Primarchs would stay out of the materium (for simply disinterest).

Not really as the daemon primarchs invaded the imperium regularly when they felt like it way before Guilliman was revived

 

'Regularly' is an overstatement. Incursions involving Daemon Primarchs were very rare. That might be getting retconned as GW adds more events that Magnus and Morty participated in, but a handful of incidents over ten thousand years is hardly regular.

[RikuEru]

 

 

 

You could make the argument that without Guilliman's return, the Daemon Primarchs would stay out of the materium (for simply disinterest).

Not really as the daemon primarchs invaded the imperium regularly when they felt like it way before Guilliman was revived

'Regularly' is an overstatement. Incursions involving Daemon Primarchs were very rare. That might be getting retconned as GW adds more events that Magnus and Morty participated in, but a handful of incidents over ten thousand years is hardly regular.

BUT we have to admit, Magnus returned to the Materium, summoned the Planet of the Sorcerors and started to establish a Tzeentchian 'kingdom' around old Prospero, before Guilliman returned.

And one of the motivations for Mortarion to establish the Plague Planets north of Ultramar as a foothold in the Materium for Nurgle's Forces, was exactly that.

Probably one further down his list of priorities, but still.

 

All Chaos Gods and their highest followers want a share of the big Materium Cake.

Edited September 26, 2017 by RikuEru

[Mellow]

So i have skimmed through this thread and have yet to find this argument: he is not the Emperor. Only a primarch. A holy creation but one that has proven corruptible in the past something the Emperor has never proven to be.

Interestingly i believe The Emperor is the only character in the entire setting that is entirely incorruptible.

[Eddie Orlock]

Interestingly i believe The Emperor is the only character in the entire setting that is entirely incorruptible.

So are his naturally born children.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

 

Interestingly i believe The Emperor is the only character in the entire setting that is entirely incorruptible.

So are his naturally born children.

The Sensei?

[Mellow]

Unfortunately there’s nothing in recent lore to indicate He had any children. Even the perpetuals are not related to Him because Oll is a lot older than Him.

[Lucerne]

Guilliman seized power in a coup, butchered the rightful leaders of the Imperium, spat in the face of his own traditions, and is sending out heretek abominations to corrupt the Space Marine Chapters from within.

 

I'm surprised there haven't been Chapters that sent their Primaris "brothers" back in pieces.

[Midgard]

This has been alluded to several times in this thread, but an in-universe argument against Guilliman's takeover is that Guilliman himself presents a single point of failure. His entire new order is dependent on him being present and capable to run the affairs of the Imperium, to deal with the macro-level threats, and to keep the Imperium at least somewhat cohesive. Take Guilliman out, and there is a very high possibility of the entire edifice crumbling.

 

In a way, Guilliman created an order where he cannot be out of commission for too long, cannot risk himself (realistically speaking... we all know that heroic battles between a primarch and some primordial monsters make for great storytelling, even if in real life you rarely see emperors and generals actually take the field on the front lines of a battle without predictable consequences), and cannot leave.

 

All it would take is G-man being slain, incapacitated, or worse yet - suffering a major breakdown, falling to Chaos, or otherwise compromised. There is no easy fall-back plan, as I would anticipate the Imperium falling into civil war within a year of Guilliman becoming a non-factor. In other words, the continued survival of post-Gathering Storm Imperium is too dependent on Guilliman, and there does not seem to be a clear backup plan in case something happens to him.

[Eddie Orlock]

Unfortunately there’s nothing in recent lore to indicate He had any children.

An absence of recent evidence is not evidence of an absence.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

This has been alluded to several times in this thread, but an in-universe argument against Guilliman's takeover is that Guilliman himself presents a single point of failure. His entire new order is dependent on him being present and capable to run the affairs of the Imperium, to deal with the macro-level threats, and to keep the Imperium at least somewhat cohesive. Take Guilliman out, and there is a very high possibility of the entire edifice crumbling.

 

In a way, Guilliman created an order where he cannot be out of commission for too long, cannot risk himself (realistically speaking... we all know that heroic battles between a primarch and some primordial monsters make for great storytelling, even if in real life you rarely see emperors and generals actually take the field on the front lines of a battle without predictable consequences), and cannot leave.

 

All it would take is G-man being slain, incapacitated, or worse yet - suffering a major breakdown, falling to Chaos, or otherwise compromised. There is no easy fall-back plan, as I would anticipate the Imperium falling into civil war within a year of Guilliman becoming a non-factor. In other words, the continued survival of post-Gathering Storm Imperium is too dependent on Guilliman, and there does not seem to be a clear backup plan in case something happens to him.

In short, Guilliman is repeating his father's mistakes. These are valid concerns.

[Bryan Blaire]

True, Eddie, but given the time line advancement, there also cannot be a definitive statement as to whether any children the Emperor might have had exist any longer.

 

Absence of recent evidence may not be evidence of absence, but it certainly isn't confirmation of current existence either.

[Adeptus]

Other than that quibble I like Guilliman coming back, as frankly when you have a ridiculously overqualified superhuman to act as a leader, no human should even be allowed to assume any leadership position over him because of the blatant superiority for the job. Mortals simply have no business in governing the Imperium unless they happen to come from the Adeptus Mechanicus (in which case they aren't mortal anymore).

Overqualified? Guilliman comes from a caste of petty, childish over-grown man-children who's biggest achievement was literally tearing the galaxy in half in an interstellar example of a family argument.

 

There's no WAY I'd let a Primarch anywhere near a position of power if it were up to me. All they've done in the past is show us how they are completely self-serving and prepared to sacrifice the entire galaxy to achieve their personal goals.

 

No thank you.

[Eddie Orlock]

... but it certainly isn't confirmation of existence either.

Yes, the ambiguity defence is self-countering. What I recall of their fluff held forth that they'd inherited His functional immortality, which isn't to say they couldn't all have met violent ends off screen. Especially given that their only real on-screen appearance is in some rather old materials.

 

Reasonably conventionally, however, most attempts to construct the canon accept the tenet that if something is said to be true it remains true without need for further support right up until it's said to be false. Thus, until we get a more reliable source that unambiguously states the Emperor never had naturally born children, the stated facts about his genetic legacy remain true.

 

Ergo, there are direct descendants of the Emperor running around the dusty corners of the setting fighting their own petty struggles for the good of Man and possibly granting redemption and solace to former champions of the dark gods

[DogWelder]

 

Other than that quibble I like Guilliman coming back, as frankly when you have a ridiculously overqualified superhuman to act as a leader, no human should even be allowed to assume any leadership position over him because of the blatant superiority for the job. Mortals simply have no business in governing the Imperium unless they happen to come from the Adeptus Mechanicus (in which case they aren't mortal anymore).

Overqualified? Guilliman comes from a caste of petty, childish over-grown man-children who's biggest achievement was literally tearing the galaxy in half in an interstellar example of a family argument.

 

There's no WAY I'd let a Primarch anywhere near a position of power if it were up to me. All they've done in the past is show us how they are completely self-serving and prepared to sacrifice the entire galaxy to achieve their personal goals.

 

No thank you.

 

 

I mean...they were also responsible for building that interstellar empire. 

 

And lets take Guilliman's performance into consideration. He built an the 500 Worlds out of scratch. A entire region of space with one of the highest standards of living in the Imperium as well as one of the most heavily defended places that Hive Fleet Behemoth and Kraken dashed themselves to pieces against. Not to mention the countless attacks by entire traitor Legions it has withstood (Shadow Crusade, Plague Wars etc.)

 

Even Guilliman's achievements on Terra vastly outstrip those of all the High Lords put together. He literally held the Imperium together after the Heresy and built the system they were intended to properly use. The Beast Arises series reveals that this system was very effective at first but started to fail only due to the incompetence and laziness of the High Lords themselves. He and his Primaris marines turned the tide during the second battle of Terra and his Indomitus Crusade largely stabilized the Imperium's front after the disaster at Cadia.

 

By contrast what have the current High Lords of Terra been doing?

Edited September 26, 2017 by DogWelder

[Vesper]

 

So i have skimmed through this thread and have yet to find this argument: he is not the Emperor. Only a primarch. A holy creation but one that has proven corruptible in the past something the Emperor has never proven to be.

Interestingly i believe The Emperor is the only character in the entire setting that is entirely incorruptible.

 

 

"Even the Golden Throne cannot keep the cells of the Emperor's dead body alive forever. Over the millennia the link between his soul and body has become increasingly tenuous. Worse of all, the Powers of Chaos have begun to infiltrate his mind, sowing seeds of doubt, dissolution and fear. It is impossible to say for how long the Emperor can survive in this condition. It is unlikely that even he really knows how much time is left to him before the tenuous hold upon his physical body is broken by weakness or finally rent apart by insanity."

 

Realm of Chaos : The Lost and the Damned - page 185

 

Guilliman seized power in a coup, butchered the rightful leaders of the Imperium, spat in the face of his own traditions, and is sending out heretek abominations to corrupt the Space Marine Chapters from within.

 

I'm surprised there haven't been Chapters that sent their Primaris "brothers" back in pieces.

 

Indeed ! Civil war was the only development that really made sense with the setting in my opinion. But I suppose suddently tech heresy and xenos witchcraft are alright to the Imperium.

 

 

 

I mean...they were also responsible for building that interstellar empire. 

 

And lets take Guilliman's performance into consideration. He built an the 500 Worlds out of scratch. A entire region of space with one of the highest standards of living in the Imperium as well as one of the most heavily defended places that Hive Fleet Behemoth and Kraken dashed themselves to pieces against. Not to mention the countless attacks by entire traitor Legions it has withstood (Shadow Crusade, Plague Wars etc.)

 

Even Guilliman's achievements on Terra vastly outstrip those of all the High Lords put together. He literally held the Imperium together after the Heresy and built the system they were intended to properly use. The Beast Arises series reveals that this system was very effective at first but started to fail only due to the incompetence and laziness of the High Lords themselves. He and his Primaris marines turned the tide during the second battle of Terra and his Indomitus Crusade largely stabilized the Imperium's front after the disaster at Cadia.

 

By contrast what have the current High Lords of Terra been doing?

 

Ruling 500 worlds is easier than ruling a galaxy especially if you get to pick those 500 worlds... That's also the manifest failure of Guilliman. He never was a team player. What of those worlds just outside Ultramar ? Didn't they deserve a share of prosperity too ? What of the greater Imperium ? Just because he arbitrarily chose to develop those worlds in spite of others is a crime to those not fortunate enough to have been arbitrarily chosen.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Vesper

[Bjorn Firewalker]

But I suppose suddently tech heresy and xenos witchcraft are alright to the Imperium.

Considering the alternative is to have Daemons tear your soul to pieces for leisure, while the Chaos Gods' mortal servants eat you alive as they simultaneously violate your body... I think tech heresy and xeno witchcraft are the lesser evils.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Bjorn Firewalker

[Vesper]

 

But I suppose suddently tech heresy and xenos witchcraft are alright to the Imperium.

Considering the alternative is to have Daemons tear your soul to pieces for leisure, while the Chaos Gods' mortal servants eat you alive as they simultaneously violate your body... I think tech heresy and xeno witchcraft are the lesser evils.

Allow me to disagree. I think the Imperium is far too rigid and radical to accept any kind of lesser evil of that magnitude.

[DogWelder]

 

 

So i have skimmed through this thread and have yet to find this argument: he is not the Emperor. Only a primarch. A holy creation but one that has proven corruptible in the past something the Emperor has never proven to be.

Interestingly i believe The Emperor is the only character in the entire setting that is entirely incorruptible.

 

 

"Even the Golden Throne cannot keep the cells of the Emperor's dead body alive forever. Over the millennia the link between his soul and body has become increasingly tenuous. Worse of all, the Powers of Chaos have begun to infiltrate his mind, sowing seeds of doubt, dissolution and fear. It is impossible to say for how long the Emperor can survive in this condition. It is unlikely that even he really knows how much time is left to him before the tenuous hold upon his physical body is broken by weakness or finally rent apart by insanity."

 

Realm of Chaos : The Lost and the Damned - page 185

 

Guilliman seized power in a coup, butchered the rightful leaders of the Imperium, spat in the face of his own traditions, and is sending out heretek abominations to corrupt the Space Marine Chapters from within.

 

I'm surprised there haven't been Chapters that sent their Primaris "brothers" back in pieces.

 

Indeed ! Civil war was the only development that really made sense with the setting in my opinion. But I suppose suddently tech heresy and xenos witchcraft are alright to the Imperium.

 

 

 

I mean...they were also responsible for building that interstellar empire. 

 

And lets take Guilliman's performance into consideration. He built an the 500 Worlds out of scratch. A entire region of space with one of the highest standards of living in the Imperium as well as one of the most heavily defended places that Hive Fleet Behemoth and Kraken dashed themselves to pieces against. Not to mention the countless attacks by entire traitor Legions it has withstood (Shadow Crusade, Plague Wars etc.)

 

Even Guilliman's achievements on Terra vastly outstrip those of all the High Lords put together. He literally held the Imperium together after the Heresy and built the system they were intended to properly use. The Beast Arises series reveals that this system was very effective at first but started to fail only due to the incompetence and laziness of the High Lords themselves. He and his Primaris marines turned the tide during the second battle of Terra and his Indomitus Crusade largely stabilized the Imperium's front after the disaster at Cadia.

 

By contrast what have the current High Lords of Terra been doing?

 

Ruling 500 worlds is easier than ruling a galaxy. That's also the manifest failure of Guilliman. He never was a team player. What of those worlds just outside Ultramar ? Didn't they deserve a share of prosperity too ? What of the greater Imperium ? Just because he arbitrarily chose to develop those worlds in spite of others is a crime to those not fortunate enough to have been arbitrarily chosen.

 

 

The principle behind the 500 Worlds is direct rule by the Ultramarines Chapter and their successors. Every planet has an ex-Ultramarine as a planetary governor and its 4 tetrarchs are champions chosen from the Chapter. Thats why its so prosperous. No Ecclesiarchial influence in governance, minimal presence by the Inquisition and no interference by the Ministorum. 

 

If that took place all throughout the galaxy then Guilliman would be accused of being a tyrant trying to put the entire Imperium under the Ultramarines.

Edited September 26, 2017 by DogWelder

[Adeptus]

I mean...they were also responsible for building that interstellar empire.

I would argue that the great crusade would have been MORE successful without Primarchs involved. Because there's no Horus Heresy without Horus.

 

And lets take Guilliman's performance into consideration. He built an the 500 Worlds out of scratch. A entire region of space with one of the highest standards of living in the Imperium as well as one of the most heavily defended places that Hive Fleet Behemoth and Kraken dashed themselves to pieces against. Not to mention the countless attacks by entire traitor Legions it has withstood (Shadow Crusade, Plague Wars etc.)

Sure. And at the risk of Godwining the thread, Hitler did great things for the German people in the 30's and Mussolini made the trains run on time. Putting one guy in charge with no checks and balances, especially when that guy's family is comprised of Daemons, Heretics and his brother is practically Lucifer reborn, and then just hoping that that guy continues to be nice because if he decides not to be nice you're all boned... that doesn't seem like a smart system of government.

[Vesper]

I don't think the technicality of it matters. I don't think any ultramarine / tetrarch could turn Nostramo into a shining beacon (eh !) of success. The 500 worlds are successful because they were handpicked and because they are interdependants. That's fine, but that's the easy route. You can't apply it to the whole Imperium, because it would be the equivalent of a social genocide.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think Guilliman is a tyrant. The Emperor was one, the High Lords are no different. That's the nature of the setting, people doing horrible things because they think it's necessary. But I don't think Guilliman is mad enough to project his 500 worlds little priviledged paradise to the entire Imperium since I think he is smart enough to know that only few people can be priviledged.

 

Had he devised the codex astartes equivalent of social organisation and planetary ruling in the Imperium, it may have been different. But no such thing can really work, for Mankind is wild and diverse.

 

At least it is my opinion. Even if it's amazing.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Vesper

[Rik Lightstar]

TDIL: Hitler was a genetically engineered Demi-God with an unparalleled talent for governance and administration. AND that Mussolini made the trains run on time.

 

http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/trains.asp

 

And I reckon the Mussolini bit was the strong bit of your post.

 

Rik

[Maatith]

 

I mean...they were also responsible for building that interstellar empire.

I would argue that the great crusade would have been MORE successful without Primarchs involved. Because there's no Horus Heresy without Horus.

 

And lets take Guilliman's performance into consideration. He built an the 500 Worlds out of scratch. A entire region of space with one of the highest standards of living in the Imperium as well as one of the most heavily defended places that Hive Fleet Behemoth and Kraken dashed themselves to pieces against. Not to mention the countless attacks by entire traitor Legions it has withstood (Shadow Crusade, Plague Wars etc.)

Sure. And at the risk of Godwining the thread, Hitler did great things for the German people in the 30's and Mussolini made the trains run on time. Putting one guy in charge with no checks and balances, especially when that guy's family is comprised of Daemons, Heretics and his brother is practically Lucifer reborn, and then just hoping that that guy continues to be nice because if he decides not to be nice you're all boned... that doesn't seem like a smart system of government.

To use an IC example, before the events of the Beheading in M31(?), the Grand Master of the Assassins had ruled well for 80 years as the effective sole ruler, but then the last 20 years of his rule he was lost to madness and bloodshed. And this was a man who had been chosen, trained and conditioned to serve and to put balance and the Imperium first. Even the Space Marines sent to kill him agreed that the Assassin had believed he was helping the Imperium; that he had built it up to the greatest strength it had seen since the Heresy even. But the burden was too great for any one individual, and when it all rests on one individual and they inevitably break, there is chaos - death, populations moved on a whim, anarchy and chaos.

Maybe a Primarch is the best individual for the job, but they still shouldn't be the best Individual - it is too great a risk

[DogWelder]

I don't think the technicality of it matters. I don't think any ultramarine / tetrarch could turn Nostramo into a shining beacon (eh !) of success. The 500 worlds are successful because they were handpicked and because they are interdependants. That's fine, but that's the easy route. You can't apply it to the whole Imperium, because it would be the equivalent of a social genocide.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think Guilliman is a tyrant. The Emperor was one, the High Lords are no different. That's the nature of the setting, people doing horrible things because they think it's necessary. But I don't think Guilliman is mad enough to project his 500 worlds little priviledged paradise to the entire Imperium since I think he is smart enough to know that only few people can be priviledged.

 

Had he devised the codex astartes equivalent of social organisation and planetary ruling in the Imperium, it may have been different. But no such thing can really work, for Mankind is wild and diverse.

 

At least it is my opinion. Even if it's amazing.

 

He is devising a codex for good governance though. Something that is broad enough to be applied throughout the galaxy. Not sure about its name though.

 

As for the 500, that's kind of what he's trying to do in Dark Imperium. Make Ultramar the 'model' the rest of the Imperium should follow. He even states that he plans to expand his domain far past its original borders in terms of influence and actual size.

[Vesper]

 

I don't think the technicality of it matters. I don't think any ultramarine / tetrarch could turn Nostramo into a shining beacon (eh !) of success. The 500 worlds are successful because they were handpicked and because they are interdependants. That's fine, but that's the easy route. You can't apply it to the whole Imperium, because it would be the equivalent of a social genocide.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think Guilliman is a tyrant. The Emperor was one, the High Lords are no different. That's the nature of the setting, people doing horrible things because they think it's necessary. But I don't think Guilliman is mad enough to project his 500 worlds little priviledged paradise to the entire Imperium since I think he is smart enough to know that only few people can be priviledged.

 

Had he devised the codex astartes equivalent of social organisation and planetary ruling in the Imperium, it may have been different. But no such thing can really work, for Mankind is wild and diverse.

 

At least it is my opinion. Even if it's amazing.

 

He is devising a codex for good governance though. Something that is broad enough to be applied throughout the galaxy. Not sure about its name though.

 

As for the 500, that's kind of what he's trying to do in Dark Imperium. Make Ultramar the 'model' the rest of the Imperium should follow. He even states that he plans to expand his domain far past its original borders in terms of influence and actual size.

 

Thank you for those new infos, you've changed my mind. Now I don't think he is smart enough to grasp the reality of the Imperium and Mankind.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Vesper

[DogWelder]

 

 

I don't think the technicality of it matters. I don't think any ultramarine / tetrarch could turn Nostramo into a shining beacon (eh !) of success. The 500 worlds are successful because they were handpicked and because they are interdependants. That's fine, but that's the easy route. You can't apply it to the whole Imperium, because it would be the equivalent of a social genocide.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think Guilliman is a tyrant. The Emperor was one, the High Lords are no different. That's the nature of the setting, people doing horrible things because they think it's necessary. But I don't think Guilliman is mad enough to project his 500 worlds little priviledged paradise to the entire Imperium since I think he is smart enough to know that only few people can be priviledged.

 

Had he devised the codex astartes equivalent of social organisation and planetary ruling in the Imperium, it may have been different. But no such thing can really work, for Mankind is wild and diverse.

 

At least it is my opinion. Even if it's amazing.

 

He is devising a codex for good governance though. Something that is broad enough to be applied throughout the galaxy. Not sure about its name though.

 

As for the 500, that's kind of what he's trying to do in Dark Imperium. Make Ultramar the 'model' the rest of the Imperium should follow. He even states that he plans to expand his domain far past its original borders in terms of influence and actual size.

 

Thank you for those new infos, you've changed my mind. Now I don't think he is smart enough to grasp the reality of the Imperium and Mankind.

 

 

Yes I agree. though I would argue that it is more of him being naive than not intelligent enough. As in, he cannot understand why others do not want to put human civilization above all else. He sees the vision of an ever expanding and developing civilization that ensures human dominance and prosperity throughout the galaxy as the only higher goal and consider all other arguments to be petty and personal.

 

The Horus Heresy books that covered the Shadow Crusade reveal this point of view. He simply cannot even begin to grasp why someone like Lorgar or Angron would try and damage this vision for whatever grievance they had. 

 

Its quite a contrast to the more 'personal' primarchs like Lorgar, Perturabo and Fulgrim I've read about.