Help with discussion about targets and weapon ranges

[Gentlemanloser]

Discussion occured tonight, when a player claimed that other models in a shooting unit didn't need to check range, as long as 1 model in the shooting unit was within range of even 1 of its weapons.

 

That struck me as being wrong, and that all weapons world needed to be wiring range to be used.

 

But I'm finding it difficult to find RAW in relation to this.

 

The only time i can find weapon range mentoined is in the second shoting step "choose targets".

 

Is it really possible to choose a target unit becuase it is within range of a single weapon of a single mini in the shooting unit.

 

Then simply attack that chosen unit with all other weapons/minis. As we have already passed step 2 and moved into step 3 and range is now no longer mentioned?

 

I've checked the FAQ and there's no clarification here. I'd there anything in the designers commentaries i might have missed?

 

Or do you need to complete step 2 for every mini in the shooting unit before moving on to step three?

 

Can you (for example only) if you have a mini with a 36" weapon and 12" weapon shoot both at a target 24" away as the target is in range of at least one of your weapons?

[Eddie Orlock]

... [D]o you need to complete step 2 for every mini in the shooting unit before moving on to step three?

I read it as this. While the text feels a little ambiguous early in the paragraph the instruction to stoop down and examine the line of sight for the firing model is illuminating and serves to clarify that both conditions from the preceding sentence remain per model.

 

We have further support out of the migration document.

When resolving a shooting attack, only one model in the target unit needs to be visible and within range of the firing model in order to make the attack.

Emphasis mine. This supports that it is checked per model.

[Gentlemanloser]

Cheers.

 

Any thoughts on the other point on range?

 

A mini with two different weapons can attack with both if at least one weapon is in range.

 

It seems strange you only check weapon range when declaring your target. Not when making an attack.

[Eddie Orlock]

Any thoughts on the other point on range?

Spelt out pretty plainly in the second sentence of the paragraph under 2. Choose Targets on pg. 179 when it makes specific reference to the range of the weapon being used. When a model uses a different weapon it needs to be in range of that other weapon (as listed on its profile).

[Gentlemanloser]

That's the stance i'd take. But the arguement is you only need to do that once for a mini. Then in step three you're allowed to shoot all weapons at the single target you've chosen.

 

You do not need to declare targets for all ranged weapons a mini is attacking with.

 

As step 3 allows you to shoot all of them at the same target.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Eddie Orlock]

As step 3 allows you to shoot all of them at the same target.

This is clarificatory text that serves to confirm that if all a models weapons are otherwise eligible to shoot the same target they can. In other words, splitting fire is not mandatory.

 

It doesn't obviate other firing requirements, like being in range of the target with the weapon in the first place. Per 'Range' under heading 8. weapons, that stat is how far the weapon can shoot. Full stop.

 

Yes, wounds can bleed further back into units, but that's an artifact of the casualty removal rules rather than the targeting rules.

[Ciler]

Then simply attack that chosen unit with all other weapons/minis. As we have already passed step 2 and moved into step 3 and range is now no longer mentioned?

No, because although it may appear so, you do not actually complete step 2 then move onto 3 for a single model.

 

You will note step two only refers to one weapon :

 

[...]In order to target an enemy unit,

a model from that unit must be within

the Range of the weapon being used (as

listed on its profile) and be visible to the

shooting model.[...]

So really, what you do for a model with several shooting weapons is alternate between step 2 and 3 as you go through their eligible weapons. The obvious statement of that is the fact that in step 3 you're being told you can choose different target units (the rules for which are in step 2).

 

Although it may seem a little counter intuitive, the rules there are not strictly sequential, in so far as a model with 2 shooting weapons goes through step 2 and 3 twice. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Thst would be the first ( and currently only i think) occurance where you skip back and forth between phase steps.

 

I'm not sure the rules do work like that.

[Ciler]

No you don't strictly speaking, you're merely treating a model with two weapons as two models with one weapon each.

[Eddie Orlock]

Thst would be the first ( and currently only i think) occurance where you skip back and forth between phase steps.

Most phases of the game operate a bit like this. Step four in the charge phase includes the instruction that you may return to step one of the same phase and pick a different unit.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yes, going back to the beginning once you've completed the steps in order.

 

But not going 1, 2, 3, 2, 3, 2, 3, 4 for example.

 

Also step 3 doesn't instruct you to go back to step 2. Unlike the charge phase.

[Ciler]

Which is exactly what I explained to you. You run all steps in order, but sometimes several times per model (when they have multiple weapons). Otherwise targetting two different units would be impossible.

[Gentlemanloser]

That's fine, you run the same step multiple times, never had an issue with that.

 

But you don't go from step 3 back to step 2.

 

Which is what you're explaining must happen.

[Ciler]

which amounts to the same thing...