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Destroyer Squads - which Legions used them?


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#51
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If they made Destroyers Bolt Pistols Assault 2, each, it might make them more worthwhile. 4 Shots at 12" each and can still charge means each marine has the firepower of 2 Rapid Fire Tac Marines.

 

Sure, its a bucket of dice with 10 Destroyers (40 shots) but its close range and you sacrifice an Elites slot for it (32 shots if you take 2 Rad Missile Launchers) while it also remaining Bolt Weapons.

 

Make the Phosphex Bombs on the Sarge 5pts each instead of the double it is now or keep the same cost and boost the range a bit.

 

For Specials either have the Marines be able to swap both pistols (2 Plasma/Flamer/Inferno; 4 total in 10 man squads) and/or make the radmissile launcher Heavy 2 (Assault 2 with Suspensor Web).

 

Some cost adjustments here and there and they might be more worth it like this.

 

I have 20 Destroyers and it kills me that I have no reason to ever use them outside of games we're playing for giggles or special scenarios.


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#52
bluntblade

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Drop their point cost to 100, every additional dude 15p instead of 20 and Jump Packs +5p each.
BAMM
Great unit.
It could be so easy.

 
Unless your name is Kaedes Nex, Bolt Pistols are unimpressive in 30k with all the MEQs or better running around, and most other pistol types don't cut it either (especially not hand flamers if you're not playing Death Guard and thus give them Chem ammo). But at least I agree with your dropping their points costs and Jump Pack upgrade cost to bring them inline with the new cheapened Assault Squads.
 
The problem is still that vanilla Destroyers have too little teeth as they stand now, especially since Techmarines can bring more Rad Missiles in a squad and Phosphex artillery is more effective than the Phosphex bombs available to Destroyers. We're still waiting on the rules to match the Destroyer's fluff. 
 

TSons had them, it turns out

 
Were they psychic?

Nope. They were few in number, because often the TSons could just use their deadliest psykers instead.

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#53
b1soul

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Rad grenades in the limited fluff do not sound devastating enough to justify their reputation as terrifying legacies if Old Night...

Honestly, they sound like watered down neutron bombs: https://en.m.wikiped...ki/Neutron_bomb

#54
Gorgoff

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Drop their point cost to 100, every additional dude 15p instead of 20 and Jump Packs +5p each.BAMM
Great unit.
It could be so easy.

Unless your name is Kaedes Nex, Bolt Pistols are unimpressive in 30k with all the MEQs or better running around, and most other pistol types don't cut it either (especially not hand flamers if you're not playing Death Guard and thus give them Chem ammo). But at least I agree with your dropping their points costs and Jump Pack upgrade cost to bring them inline with the new cheapened Assault Squads.

The problem is still that vanilla Destroyers have too little teeth as they stand now, especially since Techmarines can bring more Rad Missiles in a squad and Phosphex artillery is more effective than the Phosphex bombs available to Destroyers. We're still waiting on the rules to match the Destroyer's fluff.
Phosphex bombs are S5 AP2 while Phosphex Carnisters are S4 and AP3. That's a huge difference.
And Destroyers got RAD grenades which would make them much better in CC then Assault Squads, IF they where cheaper. Not to meantion double pistols and Counter Attack.
Unfortunately they are way WAY to expensive.

Edited by Gorgoff, 17 October 2017 - 07:38 AM.

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#55
Mazryonh

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Phosphex bombs are S5 AP2 while Phosphex Carnisters are S4 and AP3. That's a huge difference.

And Destroyers got RAD grenades which would make them much better in CC then Assault Squads, IF they where cheaper. Not to meantion double pistols and Counter Attack.
Unfortunately they are way WAY to expensive.

 

Most of the time I'd rather get Phosphex canister rounds rather than Phosphex bombs (both are Poisoned and are very likely to wound). Phosphex bombs, compared to Phosphex artillery, are single-use and can only be thrown a very short distance. Also, unless you're playing Death Guard, Destroyers have no special immunity to Phosphex and are just as susceptible to it as most infantry targets (watch out for the Crawling Fire and Dangerous Terrain!). 

 

If Phosphex bombs are to be useful in Destroyer squads' hands, it might be interesting if there was a rule where Destroyers could trigger a Phosphex bomb as a suicide weapon, if they pass an Initiative or LD test as soon as they got wiped out by a hostile Sweeping Advance move, making them useful as "we're dead anyway, so let's take as many of the enemy as we can" anti-melee units. 

 

The fact remains that with regards to ranged firepower, Destroyers are still outclassed and very short-ranged, and other units can take more Rad missiles than Destroyers can. 

 

 

I have 20 Destroyers and it kills me that I have no reason to ever use them outside of games we're playing for giggles or special scenarios.

 

I feel you. They're nice models but are lacking in the rules department. I'm sure there are plenty of Dark Angels fans who want to built their very own Destroyer-centric Dreadwing force. 

 

 

 

 Were they psychic?

Nope. They were few in number, because often the TSons could just use their deadliest psykers instead.

 

Sounds like a missed opportunity to me. Psychic Destroyers might be able to do some very nasty things. 



#56
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We had a thread on this a while back called make destroyer squads good


The fact remains that FW still hasn't done much to make Destroyers worthwhile on the tabletop. If they wanted to sell more, wouldn't it be easy to just to give Destroyers better rules?
Drop their point cost to 100, every additional dude 15p instead of 20 and Jump Packs +5p each.
BAMM
Great unit.
It could be so easy.

 

 

Giving them an additional attack and giving the squad rad grenades would also work based on their current point cost.



#57
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Phosphex bombs on a sarge and rad grenades is a bit too little for "weaponry of the Old Night" in my opinion. First: artificer hardened armour for everyone (to represent armour modified to wihtstand radiation/whatever), second: more weapon choices (special flamers, special hand flamers, grenade launchers a'la grave wardens, some unique guns, mayby some cc). I like the idea of Phosphex boeing thrown into melee but I'd prefere it a'la breaching charge.

Edited by rendingon1+, 17 October 2017 - 09:51 PM.

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#58
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I'm not a HH player, but have been a long time fan of the fluff (before the HH novels were a thing) and tend to model most of my stuff as such, and I'm having a hard time reconciling what this squad is versus what it's supposed to be. It seems that they're supposed to be the keepers of the most destructive and questionable weapons known to man. The stuff that you normally just don't use because it's so darn destructive and literally ruins the battlefield it's used on, pretty much forever. They talk about tactical nukes, ancient radiation and chemical weapons, but the models have fancy grenades and normal bolt pistols. This just doesn't seem right. It feels like they should be effectively Devastators on drugs, but they're instead mildly more annoying Assault Squads.

I picture Devastators with nuclear warheads for their missiles, microwave beams to boil swathes of the battlefield, virus bombs and caustic volatile chemicals that literally wipe out chunks of the battlefield. Molecular disintegrators, acid rains, poisoned gas, etc.

Am I taking it in wrong, or do they just seen to not be what they're supposed to be?
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#59
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The Iron Warriors used them. Xenos and Loayalists don't have "rights"


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#60
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I'm not a HH player, but have been a long time fan of the fluff (before the HH novels were a thing) and tend to model most of my stuff as such, and I'm having a hard time reconciling what this squad is versus what it's supposed to be. It seems that they're supposed to be the keepers of the most destructive and questionable weapons known to man. The stuff that you normally just don't use because it's so darn destructive and literally ruins the battlefield it's used on, pretty much forever. They talk about tactical nukes, ancient radiation and chemical weapons, but the models have fancy grenades and normal bolt pistols. This just doesn't seem right. It feels like they should be effectively Devastators on drugs, but they're instead mildly more annoying Assault Squads.

I picture Devastators with nuclear warheads for their missiles, microwave beams to boil swathes of the battlefield, virus bombs and caustic volatile chemicals that literally wipe out chunks of the battlefield. Molecular disintegrators, acid rains, poisoned gas, etc.

Am I taking it in wrong, or do they just seen to not be what they're supposed to be?


I'd say you're correct. The DG Grave Wardens seem closer to the fluff Destroyer image. I want to see them with chem-flamers, flesh-eater weapons etc.

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#61
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I'm not a HH player, but have been a long time fan of the fluff (before the HH novels were a thing) and tend to model most of my stuff as such, and I'm having a hard time reconciling what this squad is versus what it's supposed to be. It seems that they're supposed to be the keepers of the most destructive and questionable weapons known to man. The stuff that you normally just don't use because it's so darn destructive and literally ruins the battlefield it's used on, pretty much forever. They talk about tactical nukes, ancient radiation and chemical weapons, but the models have fancy grenades and normal bolt pistols. This just doesn't seem right. It feels like they should be effectively Devastators on drugs, but they're instead mildly more annoying Assault Squads.

I picture Devastators with nuclear warheads for their missiles, microwave beams to boil swathes of the battlefield, virus bombs and caustic volatile chemicals that literally wipe out chunks of the battlefield. Molecular disintegrators, acid rains, poisoned gas, etc.

Am I taking it in wrong, or do they just seen to not be what they're supposed to be?

 

You're pretty much spot on.  Death Guard Grave Wardens are what Destroyers should be.  Big hulking suits of Cataphractii armor to protect them from the horrific weapons they wield, walking around spraying the battlefield with irradiated shrapnel and horrific nanotech or chemical weapons.

 

Instead, we got overpriced understrength Assault Marines, who can pitch one phosphex bomb that's just going to make it harder for you to effectively assault any unit that you engaged.


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#62
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We had a thread on this a while back called make destroyer squads good

The fact remains that FW still hasn't done much to make Destroyers worthwhile on the tabletop. If they wanted to sell more, wouldn't it be easy to just to give Destroyers better rules?
Drop their point cost to 100, every additional dude 15p instead of 20 and Jump Packs +5p each.
BAMM
Great unit.
It could be so easy.

Giving them an additional attack and giving the squad rad grenades would also work based on their current point cost.
Actually they already have RAD grenades. ;)
Still to expansive.
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#63
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and let rad grenades work every round, not just the first round


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#64
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Guilliman's Primarch book had a bit about where he thinks about how he differs in the use of his Destroyers compared to the Raven Guard and Emperor's Children. So EC definitely used them.



#65
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Sallies are the only Legion who I know didn't use them

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#66
b1soul

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they're supposed to be the keepers of the most destructive and questionable weapons known to man. The stuff that you normally just don't use because it's so darn destructive and literally ruins the battlefield it's used on, pretty much forever. They talk about tactical nukes, ancient radiation and chemical weapons, but the models have fancy grenades and normal bolt pistols. This just doesn't seem right. It feels like they should be effectively Devastators on drugs, but they're instead mildly more annoying Assault Squads.
I picture Devastators with nuclear warheads for their missiles, microwave beams to boil swathes of the battlefield, virus bombs and caustic volatile chemicals that literally wipe out chunks of the battlefield. Molecular disintegrators, acid rains, poisoned gas, etc.


Exactly my issue with them

The terrifying weapons of Old Night were pretty lame if Destroyer rules are an accurate representation

#67
bluntblade

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Except we know that phosphex alone can straight-up murder a ship. You know that stuff in Massacre where tank crews are killed with crazy-powerful rad-weapons to leave the vehicles intact? I wanna see some of that stuff.

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#68
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The Iron Warriors used them. Xenos and Loayalists don't have "rights"

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#69
Laughingman

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Rad grenades in the limited fluff do not sound devastating enough to justify their reputation as terrifying legacies if Old Night...

Honestly, they sound like watered down neutron bombs: https://en.m.wikiped...ki/Neutron_bomb

 

I image rad weapons (and rad grenades) as a generic term for a wide ranging class of weapons. Some were intended to leave long lasting radioactive contamination others were specifically designed to have limited fallout.



#70
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Rad grenades in the limited fluff do not sound devastating enough to justify their reputation as terrifying legacies if Old Night...

Honestly, they sound like watered down neutron bombs: https://en.m.wikiped...ki/Neutron_bomb

I image rad weapons (and rad grenades) as a generic term for a wide ranging class of weapons. Some were intended to leave long lasting radioactive contamination others were specifically designed to have limited fallout.
While that may be the intent, it doesn't seem to be the way many in the community read it nor the way writers describe it. Discussions I've seen regarding any sort of unit equipment always boil down to "is it listed in their wargear?". The same thing happened when the AdMech got a codex. Before that, weaponry of AdMech forces were hugely varied and imaginative. Nowadays, good luck finding a weapon description for them that doesn't match precisely what's on a model.

Edited by Jareddm, 25 October 2017 - 04:27 AM.


#71
Mazryonh

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Phosphex bombs on a sarge and rad grenades is a bit too little for "weaponry of the Old Night" in my opinion. First: artificer hardened armour for everyone (to represent armour modified to wihtstand radiation/whatever), second: more weapon choices (special flamers, special hand flamers, grenade launchers a'la grave wardens, some unique guns, mayby some cc). I like the idea of Phosphex boeing thrown into melee but I'd prefere it a'la breaching charge.

 

Artificer armour wouldn't protect much against Phosphex bombs. In rules terms it requires a reliable invulnerable save (or preternatural constitution like that of the Death Guard's infantry) to keep infantry "relatively" safe from Phosphex. And aren't Destroyers supposed to be walking symbols of the menace represented by Old Night on Terra?

 

I'm not a HH player, but have been a long time fan of the fluff (before the HH novels were a thing) and tend to model most of my stuff as such, and I'm having a hard time reconciling what this squad is versus what it's supposed to be. It seems that they're supposed to be the keepers of the most destructive and questionable weapons known to man. The stuff that you normally just don't use because it's so darn destructive and literally ruins the battlefield it's used on, pretty much forever. They talk about tactical nukes, ancient radiation and chemical weapons, but the models have fancy grenades and normal bolt pistols. This just doesn't seem right. It feels like they should be effectively Devastators on drugs, but they're instead mildly more annoying Assault Squads.

I picture Devastators with nuclear warheads for their missiles, microwave beams to boil swathes of the battlefield, virus bombs and caustic volatile chemicals that literally wipe out chunks of the battlefield. Molecular disintegrators, acid rains, poisoned gas, etc.

Am I taking it in wrong, or do they just seen to not be what they're supposed to be?

 

You're not wrong. It's just that there are other thematically-appropriate weapons like Irrad Cleansers and Radiation Furnaces that are already in the 30k game, they're just in the hands of factions other than the Legions that use Destroyers. 

 

and let rad grenades work every round, not just the first round

 

I think something like that is considered a Relic-level ability by FW. The Barbaran Thurible Relic exclusive to the Death Guard does that already, and that's an "opponent's consent only" item. 

 

 

 

You're pretty much spot on.  Death Guard Grave Wardens are what Destroyers should be.  Big hulking suits of Cataphractii armor to protect them from the horrific weapons they wield, walking around spraying the battlefield with irradiated shrapnel and horrific nanotech or chemical weapons.

 

 

Instead, we got overpriced understrength Assault Marines, who can pitch one phosphex bomb that's just going to make it harder for you to effectively assault any unit that you engaged.

 

I think there is one crucial difference between Grave Wardens and Destroyers. To my knowledge, the Destroyers are, in almost every legion that uses them, essentially a penal unit where legionnaires who have proven themselves too useful to execute outright get "sentenced," where they eventually die a slow death from overexposure to normally-proscribed weaponry. The Grave Wardens are as heavily protected as they are because they're considered a valuable asset, and thanks to their equipment (especially their Cataphractii armour and "Death Cloud" gas projectors) they're quite effective against most targets they can reach while still being very tough. 

 

On the other hand, Destroyers are by and large considered expendable, a unit most commanders wouldn't miss if they died to something as ignominious as a Phosphex bomb mishap, or if they got gunned down by Heavy Bolters they couldn't reach in time (kind of like being stuck in the open against a heavy machine gun with just two pistols in your hands in real life). That at least is a thematically-appropriate reason for why the Destroyers don't currently have the options to get better armour. Remember that the Destroyer Corps is where Crysos Morturg of the Death Guard, a psyker in a legion whose Primarch hated them, got reassigned to, despite eventually proving himself by surviving against all odds in the Battle of Istvaan III. 

 

The major exception to the "Destroyers are expendable" philosophy of use is likely the Dark Angels' Dreadwing force, where they are considered a necessary evil that, if you really need to deploy them, you equip appropriately to let them fight like you want them to win. That's likely why the Dreadwing is described in the HH novels as having access to such goodies like Whirlwind tanks with radiation-spreading warheads that we haven't seen on the tabletop yet. 

 

Still, "Devastators on steroids" would be a good way to deploy Destroyers with no jump packs. Devastator-Destroyers carrying more varied radiation weaponry (like Irrad Cleansers rather than just being restricted to Rad Missiles), access to Chem-munitions-using Heavy Flamers (currently exclusive to the Death Guard) or even Heavy Bolters with Molecular Acid Shells (currently exclusive to the Dark Angels) would be extremely effective. 

 

I'm curious as to how Blood Angels Destroyers will be represented in the fluff, and whether they will receive any unique tabletop rules. Every Blood Angel from Baal hails from a place that was forever ruined by unrestricted NBC warfare, and each one of them almost certainly knows someone close to them who died of radiation-induced cancer or other aftereffect of those weapons.  Logically that would mean Blood Angels would be very reluctant to deploy Destroyers, at least against humans who might still be persuaded to serve the Emperor.



#72
Brother Lunkhead

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I suspect that the Destroyers play a multi-faceted role. They probably are the keepers of the legions' exterminatus weapons. But their tactical weapons would probably be useful against particularly tough xenos. I also suspect that they are employed as "terror" troops on rare occasions (or more commonly if you were.... say....Night Lords, Death Guard, or Iron Warriors for example). Like it or not, terror is an effective weapon that even the Ultramarines might be forced to use in the right situation. It's probably that "terror troop" aspect that gives the Destroyers the combat cooties reputation among the legions.






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