CCCP IV: Poll Thread and Initial Discussion (The Taurans)

[Black Cohort]

I thought Tech-marines and their servitors/ chapter serfs built a lot of marine gear/ vehicles?  Aren't most rhino/ land raider variants things that some tech-marine dreamed up, told his buddies in other chapters about and the Mechanicum bless it after it is clear they can't suppress it.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Tech-marines can repair and do some add-hoc designs like land raider variants. But the basic components and weapon systems come from the forge worlds. Most of this stuff comes from STC's since most of the creative engineering knowledge is long gone. But with Archmagos Cawl in ascendancy, maybe that will change.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Brother Lunkhead

[Zhiv]

I thought Tech-marines and their servitors/ chapter serfs built a lot of marine gear/ vehicles?  Aren't most rhino/ land raider variants things that some tech-marine dreamed up, told his buddies in other chapters about and the Mechanicum bless it after it is clear they can't suppress it.

 

That depends on a chapter.  Most get their tools delivered by AdMech as per the ancient pact between Mars and Terra.  Some chapters (Hello Aurora Chapter) have capability to produce tanks but most only have the means to repair and maintain their gear. 

[Beta galactosidase]

Construction of most space marine vehicles takes place in the Chapter's forges. The forge will produce large numbers of Rhino chassis, a small number of which will be earmarked to provide basis for Predators, Whirlwinds and other variant patterns.

 

These statements are actually quotes from Imperial Armor and Index Astartes. There is a marvelously useful collection here by Hrvat.

 

That said, I think going into these specifics is a bit off base.

[Brother Lunkhead]

I stand corrected 

[Beta galactosidase]

I'd like to talk about something else like after battle rituals, decorating personal storm shields, indoctrination, or something else.

 

The ultimate language when it comes to liking razorbacks is going to be something like "when the whims of fate and laws of battle allow for armored ground combat, the Taurans mount land raiders and razorbacks, allowing them to make punishing deep strikes against the enemy while putting out continuous firepower, trampling any enemies foolhardy enough to stand in defiance..."

 

That writing never going to need that kind of detailed order of battle and lengthy discussion of provisions, especially since they are space marines and they are going to fight understrength, in hive cities, submerged in liquid methane, on asteroids, in underwater hive cities that are inside asteroids, and under the command of forty or more different senior officers in only a few hundred years of history.

[Brother Lunkhead]

​Point well taken Brother curvaceous 

 

Here's an idea that I'd like to throw in for discussion. It speaks to Chapter ritual, honour, spirituality, and a touch of practicality.

 

While out running a few days ago, I was listening to the soundtrack of Black Hawk Down.​ There's a track titled ​Leave No Man Behind ​that gave me an idea. The Taurans never leave their dead or wounded on the battlefield. They subscribe to and are committed to the concept of "Leave No Brother Behind". To date the Taurans have never left a fallen brother on the field of battle.

 

​This is a concept that has been dear to soldiers since the beginning of warfare itself. The 7th Article in the Code of Le Legion Estrangere ( The French Foreign Legion) states:

 

​           "In combat act  without passion or hatred. You respect vanquished enemies. You never surrender your dead, your wounded, or your weapons."

 

​Part of the U.S. Army Rangers creed states a similar sentiment:

 

​           "I will never leave a fallen comrade to fall into the hands of the enemy."

 

​This not only speaks to Taurans loyalty but has practical benefits as well. This practice has allowed them to accumulate a very large bank of gene stock.

They are loathed to ever abandon a brother as it not only deprives the chapter of valuable gene stock, but equally or even more importantly, it strands his spirit far from home. And that is unforgivable. Once, every ten years, on a preset date the entire chapter returns to the home world to scatter the ashes of their fallen brothers (and the ashes of humans fallen in battle that the Taurans consider worthy) and release their spirits. They believe that it is fitting that the honoured dead should guard their dead world. Whether by chance or by design this grave world has never been desecrated by xenoes or any other unworthies.

 

To date I've only seen one short story that deals with this issue. I can't recall the title or author, but it deals with a Dark Angels chaplain who travels to the site of an old battle to retrieve the bodies of a scout sergeant and several neophytes.                               

 

I've noticed that in so much of SM literature writers are quick to abandon dead (and even wounded) SM's on a battle field, even in situations where with a little effort they could be retrieved. I understand this comes under the concepts of literary hook, artistic license, etc, etc. But this and other commonly use plot devices would quickly lead a SM  Chapter into extinction.

 

​What do you think of this idea as applied to the Taurans?

[Black Cohort]

I don't think there should be 0 times that they have left someone behind but each time it is a big deal when they don't. Being the 40k universe whoever left bodies behind whould face some kind of punishment, even if it was clearly impossible. No organization can recover bodies 100% of the time.

[Zhiv]

 

 

​What do you think of this idea as applied to the Taurans?

This already applies to all marine chapters. Tales are told about marines fighting hard and being ready to spill blood to retrieve their fallen. Sometimes even rhinos and dreadnoughts are reclaimed this way if possible.  So yeah, I'd say it'd apply to Taurans but that doesn't make them really unique. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

I don't think it applies to all or even many SM chapters. I've seen very little evidence in the literature that any great effort goes into retrieving dead SMs during or after a conflict. Just the one story I mentioned comes to mind. Also, I wouldn't focus too much on fighting to retrieve the dead aspect. There are many ways to do it given the skill and technology available to SM chapters. Yes, even today no organization can recover bodies 100% of the time. You could once say the same thing about identifying war dead too. But now that's no longer true.

 

As you don't see much of this in SM literature (lots of chapters seem to leave their dead) I thought it would make a good tie-in to a major ritual (the return to the home world thing). If the Taurans are relentless in doing this, that would make it noteworthy.

 

Anyone have another idea?

Edited December 2, 2017 by Brother Lunkhead

[Commissar Molotov]

I'm inclined to agree with Zhiv and Black Cohort in saying that saying that no brother has ever been left behind in the chapter's history is difficult to explain or justify. With some of the enemies and weaponry Space Marines face, it's entirely possible that warriors of the Taurans might have been vaporised, shunted into different dimensions or otherwise removed from the material plane. Dealing in absolutes is a difficult thing to do with DIY - it's like saying "no brother of my Chapter has ever turned to Chaos." 

 

So perhaps the thing to do is to dig beneath and look at some of the reasoning as to why - I think the idea of the "elephant graveyard" is a good one, and it seems to speak to ideas of veneration and respect - hence your "no man left behind." - is this so that their spirits can rest easy, so they can know a homeworld (and a peace) they might not have had in their lives? Is it so that all the brothers of the Chapter can mingle together as one? There's a lot here that we could exploit and explore. 

 

Could some of the Tauran steadfastness relate to a belief system? A feeling that they have power or support in the spirits of their forebears guiding them? 

[Zhiv]

So perhaps the thing to do is to dig beneath and look at some of the reasoning as to why - I think the idea of the "elephant graveyard" is a good one, and it seems to speak to ideas of veneration and respect - hence your "no man left behind." - is this so that their spirits can rest easy, so they can know a homeworld (and a peace) they might not have had in their lives? Is it so that all the brothers of the Chapter can mingle together as one? There's a lot here that we could exploit and explore. 

 

Could some of the Tauran steadfastness relate to a belief system? A feeling that they have power or support in the spirits of their forebears guiding them? 

 

This could be also used to tap into White Scar's known distaste of dreadnoughts, by having the chapter believe the spirits must be allowed to be free'd after death.

 

ALTERNATIVELY, dreadnoughts could be housed in a sanctuaries during off-time (as they are), but instead of cold halls and hangars, maybe the dreadnoughts would be housed (within a ship) in a large ancestral shrine were their deeds are recorded and where marines gather to contemplate their service to the chapter. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

' To date the Taurans have never left a fallen brother on the field of battle.' seems to be what everyone is focused on. That's just a piece of fluff that can easily be thrown out since people seem so uncomfortable with it. Clearly, if a SM is vaporized of zapped into another dimension he no longer exists in the physical real as an entity to be retrieved..... that's a bit silly. 'No Brother Left Behind' is a concept and a goal. It is no way near as high a goal as holding back the darkness of chaos. Also, to date no Grey Knight has ever succumbed to chaos.....pretty good record for 10,000 years. I don't see a lot of people crying out that this is impossible (I'm sure some have a problem with it).

 

The concept is part of a military ethos that could be attached to the 'elephant grave yard' idea. However, if I'm the only one who has any attachment to this idea, throw it out by all means and let's move on.

[Wargamer]

Perhaps a better way of putting it is something like: "while recovering the fallen is essential for the survival of all Space Marine Chapters, the Taurans are particularly resolute in their desire to retrieve the dead and wounded. This refusal to leave a fallen Brother behind can sometimes be a hindrance, with Tauran advances or withdrawals slowed in order to tend to the dead and the dying."

[Brother Lunkhead]

You can be resolute and efficient at the same time. Perhaps several small dedicated squads lead by an apothecary would sufice. Generally, casualties should not be that high, so minimal resources should only be neccessary to perform this task. This task should not impede their advance. Perhaps simply state, "while recovering the fallen is essential for the survival of all Space Marine Chapters, the Taurans are particularly resolute in their desire to retrieve the dead and wounded.

 

Thanks for the extrapolation  

[Heru]

Feels to me that some folk are getting too hung up on this "no man left behind idea". Personally I don't think it really offers much to the Chapter. It has already been established that other Chapters go to great lengths to recover their fallen, mainly because geneseed is too valuable to be left behind if it can be helped (that's why Chapter's have apothecaries). Plus we already have an official Chapter noted to go to great lengths the Red Scorpions.

[Brother Lunkhead]

I'm not familiar with the details of Red Scorpions fluff. Could you site an example? 

 

I agree that gene seed is too valuable to be left behind. My point (of which I grow tired of repeating) is that it has not been established that other chapters go to great length to recover their fallen. Now it's true that they should, just as they should not generally throw themselves into conventional battles as they seem to do more often than not (but that's a topic for another venue). That is one of the reasons I suggested the concept in the first place.

 

 Since I brought this topic up, I'm perfectly fine with dropping it and moving on if that's what most folks want to do.

 

So, Commissar Molotov can you summarize what we have agreed on so far and what current ideas are still open?

Edited December 4, 2017 by Brother Lunkhead

[deathspectersgt7]

Just wanted to leave this here.

[Brother Lunkhead]

.... And so it begins Very nice brother, thank you!!!

[Brother Lunkhead]

Helloooooooo........ Is anybody there???

[Commissar Molotov]

Hi, Lunkhead. You may not have seen, but I have posted in the main Liber Unity Project. The Taurans are the focus now and I will be posting what we have got over today and this weekend some can pick up the baton that has been dropped.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Greetings Molotov. Good to have you back I saw your post on the main sight and have been keeping the warp daemons away. Hope to get some work on the Taurans  done here. Looking forward to your updates.

[Commissar Molotov]

Morning, all. 

 

I've gone through and gathered the results of the last few pages' discussion on the Taurans and attempted to organise it via the sections of the traditional Index Astartes format. 

 

I feel that it gives us an overview of what needs to be developed further. I will post again with my thoughts on the Fortress-Monastery; I feel I have a stronger sense of this than I do the homeworld in general. 

 

 

 

 

CHAPTER NAME............THE TAURAN

CHAPTER FOUNDING........XRD [M.3X]

HOMEWORLD...............XXXXXXXXX (FORMER) [QUERY:FLEET-BASED?]

FORTRESS-MONASTERY......XXXXXXXXX

 

COMBAT TRAITS...........CLEANSE & PURIFY, DIE STANDING

STRENGTH................

BATTLE CRY..............

 

As upon the plains of Chogoris,

so unto the void eternal." 

                                                               - Tauran Maxim

 

 

Origins

A Chapter of the 4th or 5th Founding. 

 

During the Nova Terra Interregnum, the Taurans sided with the Ur-Council of Nova Terra. 

 

We could really play up the stubborn idea here, with them blindly following the Ecclesiarchy until the bitter end of the civil war, where they finally give in after their homeworld is blockaded and bombarded by a coalition of Astartes forces and the Inquisition. Might be an interesting thing to make them ultra-religious in their early years, but the failed civil war makes them go back to the "old ways" of seeing the Emperor as not a god, but a man.

 

 

 

Homeworld

 

 

It is known that the Taurans...

 

Recruitment from various worlds, combining various creeds under one banner. (Hypno-indoctrination.) 

 

Roaming, far-ranging hunts in a manner not that dissimilar to the nomadic tribes of Chogoris. 

 

The Taurans had a homeworld, at some point. They then abandoned or forfeited it to become the relentless, crusading, nomadic Chapter we have today. I like the idea that this planet was either uninhabited, or it was inhabited by primitive tribes that avoid the fortress, considering it cursed. Periodically, forces from the Taurans return to make offerings around their old Fortress Monastery. These offerings might be captured weapons and the bones of fallen enemies, totems and standards, even armoured vehicles, their metal skeletons slowly crumbling. A visual history of the Chapter's hard-fought victories and terrible losses, avenged. my idea was that the Fortress-Monastery is entirely abandoned, and has been for potentially thousands of years. The Taurans return to pay tribute, perhaps to atone for something, perhaps to prove their prowess and dedication to the Imperium. 

 

I think the Chapter might have a complicated relationship with its former homeworld - a place which many of the Chapter's warriors never knew, and yet a symbol of... what? Perhaps the futility of calling one place home, when their focus is the whole of the Imperium? A reminder never to rest, but rather to forge ahead relentlessly? 

 

 

My vision is that they have seen their crusade through, have served their penance through and are ready to be welcomed back with open arms. But they just never do. They remain distant and aloof, ever pushing onwards. This crusade is millennia in their past, unlike the three mentioned above who are (or were, until the shift into M42) serving their crusade.

EDIT: To clarify, "They never do" doesn't mean their crusade never ended or that they are on a Black Templars-esque "eternal crusade" but that they never rejoined the Imperium in the same way.

 

 

"The Elephant Graveyard" 

 

 

Beliefs

The Taurans served a penitent crusade at some point in the past, and this forced them to become somewhat self-reliant" -> "They are now somewhat distant and aloof from the Imperium as a whole, even as they fight to protect its citizens." - Elements of Jaghatai Khan's wild, untameable streak? 

 

 

Naturally impatient, impulsive - the brothers work hard to centre themselves through meditation, warfare and the arts. (Poetry, Meditation?) 

 

Reconquering territory that has been lost to the Imperium. 

 

 

So perhaps the thing to do is to dig beneath and look at some of the reasoning as to why - I think the idea of the "elephant graveyard" is a good one, and it seems to speak to ideas of veneration and respect - hence your "no man left behind." - is this so that their spirits can rest easy, so they can know a homeworld (and a peace) they might not have had in their lives? Is it so that all the brothers of the Chapter can mingle together as one? There's a lot here that we could exploit and explore. 

 

Could some of the Tauran steadfastness relate to a belief system? A feeling that they have power or support in the spirits of their forebears guiding them?

 

 

• 'The Tyranids as a true, implacable enemy'
• 
  

 

Organisation

Crusading fleets - multiple company strength (approx. 200)

Khanate Brotherhoods 

 

"Iberian Royal Knights - Commanders having loyal retainers in a way that's perhaps outside of the Codex structure."

 

 

Combat Doctrine

"A chapter that likes to hit HARD..."

Methodical, overwhelming force

 

 

I feel like the Taurans fight in large numbers, smashing the enemy apart in a relentless advance.  Once they hit the ground they never stop advancing, their tactics are rarely subtle and the enemy often sees them coming but that does matter.   They almost never deploy in numbers below the company level and more frequently deploy a reinforced battle company or 2.  This means they tend to have fewer groups operating at one time.

 

This ties into how I see their fleet operating, centered around a battle barge with 2-4 strike cruisers.  They have more heavy ships than average for a chapter, but less lighter ships like frigates.  The wield their ships with the grace of a sledgehammer and are fond of boarding actions.

 

 

 

I don't think these ideas have to be mutually exclusive. Striking, as a rule with overwhelming force as your primary style of putting steel on target doesn't have to be reckless. In fact it really can't be, or eventually, no more chapter. Using a large force to strike the foe relentlessly but intelligently, at the right moment would look like a stampede.

 

 

"Constant advance, no faltering"

 

 

I see the White Scars and the Taurans diverging somewhat in their combat doctrines - whilst the White Scars are adept at striking fast and then falling back, I see the Tauran as a relentless, unstoppable force. I agree with the idea of constant motion - but not necessarily the idea of speed. Perhaps that's something that dovetails with the ideas from GW fluff that the Tauran are 'steady' - they're not Dwarven or like the Salamanders, but they are experts at placing the enemy under pressure, and slowly cranking up that pressure until they are inevitably crushed. Whilst my thoughts seem to suggest a troop-heavy approach like the Death Guard, I'm not sure I mean it that way - but certainly the idea of relentlessness - which to me is the watchword of the Taurans.

 

 

Gene-seed

The Taurans derive their gene-heritage from that of Jaghatai Khan, Master of the White Scars. 

 

 

The gene-seed of the White Scars appears to be stable and initially displayed on aberrations or mutation. However, with the introduction of genetic material from the steppes tribesmen, the genome seems to have inherited their wild savagery and thirst for war. Despite the teachings of the Khans and Stormseers, it is not unheard of for tribal feuds to flare up between fello squad members. In addition to this, there have been several recorded instances where White Scars Brotherhoods have bloodily exceeded their mission objectives, such as the infamous `Red Highway Massacre`.

Whether such incidents are as a result of some inherent flaw in the White Scars` genetic material or came about after the integration of the tribesmen is unknown, but the Adeptus Mechanicus is eager to know which. The White Scars successor Chapters, the Rampagers, Marauders, Destroyers and the Storm Lords are all equally ferocious and fine examples of the combat teachings of Jaghatai Khan.

 

 

The White Scars' "need for speed" manifests itself as a relentless drive, endlessly pushing on against the darkness. 

 

 

Notes

"The Taurans have long been cloaked in mystery, their crusading fleets appearing only rarely in Imperial histories. Still they honour the tithe, sending staunch Veterans to stand the Long Vigil amid the Deathwatch's ranks. Brother Dronthus is typical of his Chapter's steady character." - Deathwatch Codex 

 

[Brother Lunkhead]

Thanks for the update and overview Molotov.

 

Origins

​

​​I like the idea of the Taurans once having strong ties to the Ecclisiarchy which is now strained after the Terra Nova Interregnum.... Once ultra-religious, but now more restrained in their spiritual beliefs. They still have strong ties to their former home world (spirit of the place) and make regular pilgrimages to it when they bring offerings (tie in to the Elephants' Graveyard idea).

 

Their former homeworld was blockaded and bombarded during the civil war and left lifeless. The Taurans feel strongly responsible for allowing this to happen to the people they ruled over and had strong ties to. Although technically the Taurans forfeited all rights to the world as a result of their actions during the civil war, they still lay claim to it as a spiritual home to which no organization in the Imperium feels the need to dispute. The world remains occupied only by the spirits of it's former inhabitants to which the Taurans bring gifts of appeasement during their pilgrimages.

 

 

​Homeworld

 

​When the Taurans Chapter was first formed and they laid claim to their homeworld they found it settled by nomadic warring cultures (perhaps along the cultural lines of the Bantu speaking people like the Zulu and the Nilotic people like the Maasai and the Sudanese.... all of whom have strong warrior traditions). Having united these warring cultures, they developed strong ties to them. The destruction of this world left a lasting feeling of remorse with the Taurans.

 

I think we can tie the African cultural themes with the Iberian knight cultural theme together nicely using the above idea as an anchor point.

 

After their penitent crusade, the Taurans "never rejoined the Imperium in the same way." Sounds right.

 

Beliefs 

 

Sounds good.

 

"The Tyranids as a true, implacable enemy"..... Someone should explore this, as it could be very interesting.

 

 

Organization

 

​Looks good.

 

Combat Doctrine

 

​Looks good.

 

Gene Seed

 

​Looks good.

 

​"As upon the plains of Chagoris,

​so unto the void eternal."   ​​

Edited January 16, 2018 by Brother Lunkhead

[Brother Lunkhead]

ZZZZZZZZZZ......zzzzzzz.......SNORT........sniff...... ok, I'm awake..... Is anybody there?.........